L3 Harris sale of Aviation sector impact on cadets
 

Hi all, our eldest has just been accepted into the ATPL with L3 Harris. We haven't signed paperwork or parted with any funds yet. I've just read online that they've sold their aviation business which includes the pilot training sector. I understand from L3 Harris that "they'll be no changes apart from a company name change in 4 months time". I'm concerned about the impact of the company change, the relationship with airlines and overall quality following the sale. Is there anyone out there currently training with them that could shed some light on how things are going to be post sale?
thank you for any help and advice you can give.

Hi there - welcome to the forum! As you will read from a lot of posts on here, please exercise the usual business caution before parting with any money - this applies to *all* schools, and even the best of them can hit a bump in the road here and there. I would encourage you to read them if you have time, particularly from a poster called Parkfell, amongst others, who can indicate what to look for. You will also probably find comments on what L3 get up to.

In theory, provided they don't change the staff or otherwise mess with the admin, there should be no change in quality, but I'm sure other people will have their ideas ;).

The culling of staff these past few months leading up to an acquisition by a non aviation finance house should be warning enough

Avoid like the plague would be my advice. A long history of ahem, disingenuous behavior.

One day, they decided to close one of their UK flight training basis. After few months, they decided to close their Portuguese base and do “European flight training” in U.S (Yes, some idiot actually thought this would work!) When they hastily started their operation in Florida, they realized, they can’t find any instructors anywhere in Orlando who are both EASA (or UK) and FAA qualified. (Thats the qualification you need in order to teach a European Cadet, flying in U.S)
…. And now, after a year full of disaster and headaches, they are selling their business.
Do your son a favor and stay away from this company. There are plenty other good companies that get you better results in a lesser time with way less drama

Do some due diligence..!

5 minutes of looking for reviews of L3 or it’s former name of CTC and you’d never have contemplated allowing your child to spend £100K with them.

Be grateful they’ve only wasted a few hundred quid applying.

Some of us I’m sure seem a bit of a stuck record but what exactly are you hoping to gain by spending an extra £30K on ‘integrated’ vs ‘modular’? They’ll get the same piece of paper at the end of it all.

Thank you everyone for your advice and knowledge that's much appreciated. Think we'll avoid these guys.
In terms of choosing integrated, it's just personal preference for a young lad who needs consistency and no breaks in order to stay focussed :0)

Caveat emptor. I rarely state my credential or in fact ever but let’s just say that on top of a long airline flying career I have also worked in recruitment for two large airlines. The behavior of L3 towards its students during Covid and the much heralded apparent tie ups with airlines has resulted in L3 having a very devalued name in the training world. Go modular and enjoy the journey. Character and attitude are equally as important as to which training school the aspirant pilot has attended. Ignore the glossy brochures and hype. L3 is categorically not the Oxbridge of pilot training, quite the reverse.

Hi GTpilotmumma, I completely understand about wanting the integrated course for focus. You can do modular full time near exactly the same way as with an integrated course. You can do a full time residential ATPL ground school as well for that stage of the training. A quick phone call to a local school for PPL and they'll be more than happy to take him on full time and this will be the same for each stage of training. The benefit is if you aren't happy with the service you are getting at any stage, you can go elsewhere. Any decent school will be happy for you to pay as you go i.e. after each lesson.

A big benefit of modular I don't see mentioned enough is that after the first stage (PPL) you will be a licenced Pilot whereas on an integrated course, you don't get a licence until the very end. Full time PPL can be done in a few weeks and then you can jump straight into the ATPL theory course and fly to build hours at the weekend, while guys who started an integrated course at the same time will still be in the classroom without a single flying hour logged! You can make modular hour building interesting too by getting other ratings like aerobatics and seaplane (Cessna on floats) up in Scotland, or just by flying across the continent.

I was in pilot recruitment for years before becoming one myself. With a stack of CVs all with CPL ME/IR and 200 hours, the ones that stood out were modular guys who built hours getting other ratings and flying exciting aircraft. I remember one guy in particular really stood out because he got an IMC (now IR(R)) rating during hour building and was on just over 200 hours with something like 70 hours single pilot IFR and he was light years ahead of others.

My thought on reading that is that he doesn’t sound ready for the course. It’s not like an extension of school where parents can just helicopter the kid through it if needed by watching over them. This is real life, and to get a good crack at landing that first job he needs to perform really well. With the groundschool and grind of the ME/IR it’s all about self motivation and the drive to get through.

Just make sure this really is what they want to do. If it’s because you think it’s cool for him to be a pilot, it’ll end in tears.

Quick fix to lack of life experience would be to spend 12 months working beforehand experiencing some real personal responsibility. If they’re motivated enough for the job then they’ll have no issue spending a year flipping burgers to help contribute to it. If they jack it in there’s your red flag.

Good point vp. One of the most impressive candidates I / we interviewed for a first job with the oop North airline of choice these days had worked in Tescos for 8 years in order to fund his training. Great kid and attitude demonstrating commitment and motivation in spades. Obviously academically and sim flying good enough but outstanding character. He got the job. Frankly I got sick and tired of hearing, well…I left school and wanted to be an airline pilot so joined L3. The elephant in the bath being, the not asked so where did you get 100k? Do not believe the hype that the snake oil salesmen at L3 spout. They only care about the money. Toxic.

Thanks again everyone, there's a lot of really useful advice here. Our lads a hard worker, he's got a job alongside college, and is an RAF cadet.
we'll make a lot of different and better informed choices based on all your responses. Thank you so much.

Is this his dream or yours?
is this the same lad?

There's only one reason to go integrated, and that is to target a specific airline that only takes integrated students, and even then you shouldn't go "all-in". If you can afford integrated and still have cash to spare then go for it. Otherwise target the other 90% of airlines who will take modular. If you want to spread your training out over 2-3 years... go modular. If you want to get everything done in 9 months... modular. At an integrated school you go at the pace of the class. If you're smart they'll hold you back and if you're not then hopefully they'll pull you along.

Just to add that in the case of this particular school you’ll go at the pace of the class… That doesn’t mean the pace of the class is anything remotely sensible, it’s whatever is the most profitable for the school. If that means being stood down for six months doing nothing and delaying your future job then tough.

If he is really set on Integrated then take a look at FTE Jerez.

Before you sign up to any course ensure that the prospective student holds a Class One medical

In common with all courses you must visit the establishment before deciding to sign up
As Paco has indicated in his post, I have given advice previously on what a customer must consider and ask about when on site.

CAVEAT EMPTOR, especially when dealing with smooooth talking snake oil salesmen who promise the earth & say it is rosey in the garden
Stage payments must reflect the actual cost at that point of the course. AlexW suggests the groundschool should be about £5000. Add to that the boarding/ food etc.

I was with CTC shortly after it was bought by L3, and like any other takeover, they walk in and strip costs until it barely survives as a functioning business. Shut down of 2 of the major training bases with nothing ready to replace prior, lack of aircraft etc. Took about an additional 18 months to go through training despite my spotless training record, no sickness or anything from my end!

AVOID! Especially with the upcoming take over...

Not going to get into an integrated/modular debate; but Skybourne and FTE Jerez are your best bet, IMO. Leading Edge cadets are experiencing huge delays with a lack of aircraft and instructors, they have nowhere near the capacity as what they have taken on. Don't get drawn in by the fantastic marketing teams!

Best of luck to you and your son

A contract is just an agreement. Has anyone ever tried putting their own conditions into a training contract?

I have seen it done in the context of payment timelines. I am not sure how much more a flight school would let someone put in there, but it's always worth asking.

I'm a current student at Leading-edge if you want to DM me with any questions.

As of Delays, yes there is - but the general consensus is that there's delays industry wide.

For me, Skyborne, FTE Jerez or Leading edge are your best options - try and speak to current students.

Could not have said any of this better myself (another cadet with a 3 year timeline here - AVOID)

All it takes to start modular is a phone call to a local flight school or club to get a lesson booked. Why wait for a big integrated school when you can probably get your first hour logged this week. By the time integrated guys are learning how to steer with their feet, you can be PPL IR(R) flying IFR across the country or having a weekend break in Bruges.

The delays are only there because the sausage factories get greedy and pile in more students than they can cope with.

And why wouldn’t they, what are you going to do about it? Leave? :}

The ‘best option’ is to save the £30K, go Modular, and be finished quicker.

You could always ‘invest’ your money with Leading Edge at Oxford who are so insolvent it makes Rishi Sunaks government look rich! Their accounts are due out soon it seems……rumours are a further couple of million lost. They will be the next to fail.
L3 at least protect the students money, Leading Edge spend it the same way Tayside and FTA did. Don’t say I didn’t warn anyone.
L3 is the absolute safest bet anywhere at the moment.

Or just pay as you go Modular, save £30K and also don’t risk your money…

You don’t have to go to a sausage factory instagram school and wear a pilot outfit with ridiculous epaulettes in order to fly an airliner…

Aren’t BA paying for cadets training at the moment? Surely that is the first place to start….

What's the source of info re Leading Edge?

That’s good to hear because that’s exactly my plan!

What's the source of info re Leading Edge? ...asks BoeingLudo737.....common sense would be my answer.

SJ

It was a simple question. No need to be a d... about it

Leading Edge’s Accounts have just been filed at Companies House……They just posted another annual loss of £3m.
Their ‘Deferred Income’ (the students money they have already spent and would be unable to repay) now stands at £8.5m.
Their TOTAL insolvent position is now £9.6m and that was 9 months ago when these accounts were done on the 31/3/23. That’s a loss of £3m a year or £250,000 a month or £12,500 per working day if you want it in English.
Despite them losing that huge amount and their Marketing Machine saying how well they are doing and linking up with ‘this and that airline’, they are losing money hand over fist!

I heard from an upper management member of Airways Aviation that they (Leading Edge) have approached them last summer and asked them to take over their Spanish operation. No idea how true this is but seeing your analysis makes me think it maybe a valid concern

I think that Leading Edge were looking for someone to provide fair weather training last year - or possibly the year before - but no-one would take it on. Fear of non-payment apparently.

Isn't it illegal to trade under those circumstances?

Well, define illegal. If the directors believe the company can continue trading despite its rather poor balance sheet position they can continue. It is only if they get to a position that they either knew or should have known that there was no reasonable prospect of the company avoiding insolvency and they carry on regardless that 'wrongful trading' arises.

Well, backers with deep pockets are few and far between, and there can't be that many incoming students to cover that lot..... :)

'Define illegal'- trading while insolvent! They appear to be insolvent, with little prospect of trading their way out.

BoeingLudo737 got snippy with my last post, so let me say again....common sense means, exactly that, use the FACTS to make up your mind..Nav3 nailed it...well done!

Just like FTA, it is disgraceful what LE are doing and being allowed to do, anyone giving them more than more than 1K at a time needs their head examining.

SJ

The uk flight training industry is at severe risk of collapse. I wouldn’t pay for anything in advance unless you’re prepared to lose it. Modular training is the only viable option outside of the funded schemes offered by BA, currently.