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-   -   Female wannabe - honest advice please. (https://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/650134-female-wannabe-honest-advice-please.html)

Truebluegirl 6th Dec 2022 22:40

Wow - I didn't expect so many responses to my thread - thank you all so much for everyone's valuable input! I will definitely start by getting my Class 1 medical and then get a feel for things in terms of training for a PPL. There are a couple of well regarded flight schools/clubs where I live, so I have a couple of options there.

I am not super academic - would this hold me back? I am a trained primary teacher, and had to do a quite a few English and maths tests to train for that. I am not afraid of doing tests as long as I have the materials to practice.

As far as I understand. there are two main routes to go down - an integrated ATPL course which basically gets you up and running within 18-24 months. I understand that this is the quickest route, and you don't need any prior flying experience. Unfortunately those flight schools are quite far away from where I am in the UK. The nearest being 2 hours away (doable but I think the onus is on you being away and staying there). The other main one is L3 Harris. They advertise quite heavily but from my research I need to avoid this one like the plague. Perhaps going down the modular route would be a better for me? Can somebody please explain how a modular route differs from an integrated ATPL? The other alternative is a degree based course with gives you a license (from my research not many options with this one).

I would like to get as many licences are I can (not just UK). Also, I would be very interested to hear about the job market at the moment. I am very concerned I won't end up employed after all my training (although L3 Harris do say they have fantastic links with the major airlines). My child would be at an adult by the time I finish, so I would have some freedom to move countries etc for employment purposes if this was the case.

Finally, I would love to hear about the general life of an airline pilot. I understand it's a very general question depending on the airline you work for, but it would still be very interesting to know. How long are your layovers? When you are employed, do you need to stay with that airline a certain number of years? What are your work patterns like? Can a first officer start off doing long-haul? TIA.





Truebluegirl 6th Dec 2022 22:45


Originally Posted by rudestuff (Post 11341955)
If you want to be - then be. Others have hit all the major points: Get a class 1 medical and a PPL, then you'll know for sure. Other than that, good luck! Your choice of gender will give you a huge advantage.

Advantage in what sense, sorry? All I have heard is that females are actively encouraged to step into the aviation industry due to a shortage.

visibility3miles 7th Dec 2022 00:24

I only have a PPL, but I’m female and had a female instructor.

I learned to fly in California, which was cheaper than elsewhere because it has excellent weather most of the time, so the flight school could rent its planes far more hours per month than they might have elsewhere.

On the other hand, I probably have less actual IFR training than most who get a PPL elsewhere.

The point of getting a Class 1 medical ASAP is so you know in advance if there is a hidden problem that could cut short your dreams before you get out of the starting gate.

Uplinker 7th Dec 2022 10:14

You should not find the groundschool or exams particularly difficult. There is maths, geometry, angles, vectors etc, but nothing too advanced. There is an enormous amount of information to process and facts to remember though, and you will need to spend each evening going over what you learned that day.
Practise questions, and give yourself regular practise tests. For this reason, if you are unsure about exams, I would find a good ground school rather than trying to do it all yourself from books, or ad-hoc. A good ground-school instructor(s) will explain the important principles you need to learn in every subject.

The other thing is with your age you need an advantage when it comes to job interviews, up against all the 20-somethings. When I did my ATPL course, the airlines were only interested in students who had done a CAP 509 integrated full-time ATPL course at a recognised school. Having your licence from such a school might give you an advantage over someone who has spent 3-4 years struggling to complete via the modular route, and flying at weekends etc. The modular route does not necessarily have the same standards, consistency or depth of knowledge. "Chalk and talk" in a classroom is very valuable, and at the school I went to, there were components of aircraft one could look at, hold and examine, to help one's understanding.

Re airline pilot, the job: Be prepared for a few years of very hard work, very busy rosters, night flying, four or six sector days, 30 minute turn-arounds, minimum rest, working weekends, Bank holidays, and at Christmas. 6 days on 2 off was not uncommon, and you became a zombie - you were either working, driving to/from work, or sleeping. You will often have to wake up at 0300 or not get to bed until 0300.

Unlikely to get a long-haul job straight away - those are the top jobs and you cannot just walk into them. You will have to spend a few years doing all the drudgery, (as above) to 'earn' your place. Long-haul lay-overs used to be a few days, (sometimes a week), but are more often 24 hour "bullets" now i.e. fly, eat, sleep, maybe a couple of hours to yourself the next day, then get ready and fly home - often flying all night to arrive when the airport opens in the morning.

Again, I am not trying to put you off, but there is A LOT of hard work ahead; both at flight school and in your first job. :)
.

rudestuff 7th Dec 2022 11:50


Originally Posted by Truebluegirl (Post 11343525)
Advantage in what sense, sorry? All I have heard is that females are actively encouraged to step into the aviation industry due to a shortage.

It should be fairly obvious. Those identifying as female are under-represented in the profession (although arguably over-represented amongst those who actually want to do the job - but that's another argument!) You'll almost certainly make it to interview. Only a small fraction of the blokes will make it that far, which is a pretty sweet deal if you can get it. Good luck!

paco 7th Dec 2022 12:10

I would look at modular training, not just integrated - which is over-rated anyway.

Phil

Gargleblaster 7th Dec 2022 13:01

No advice here, just posting for encouragement:

Sigríður Einarsdóttir, a female captain at Icelandair flew her last trip a few days ago, having started with the company in 1984, becoming a captain in 1996. The crew on the last flight was naturally all female.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....8cb079e19c.jpg
(BTW don't think the picture is off the crew, probably all the female pilots working there)
https://www.mbl.is/frettir/innlent/2...ja_icelandair/

rudestuff 7th Dec 2022 13:20


Originally Posted by Truebluegirl (Post 11343524)
I am not super academic - would this hold me back? I am a trained primary teacher, and had to do a quite a few English and maths tests to train for that.

A non-academic teacher... Isn't that an oxymoron? For the ATPL exams GCSE level maths will do just fine. For flying a Jet you'll really just need your 3x table for calculating descent!


Originally Posted by Truebluegirl (Post 11343524)
As far as I understand. there are two main routes to go down - an integrated ATPL course which basically gets you up and running within 18-24 months. I understand that this is the quickest route, and you don't need any prior flying experience. Unfortunately those flight schools are quite far away from where I am in the UK. The nearest being 2 hours away (doable but I think the onus is on you being away and staying there). The other main one is L3 Harris. They advertise quite heavily but from my research I need to avoid this one like the plague. Perhaps going down the modular route would be a better for me? Can somebody please explain how a modular route differs from an integrated ATPL? The other alternative is a degree based course with gives you a license (from my research not many options with this one).

The 'two main routes' are all you should consider, although in reality there are way more than that (there are at least 7 or 8 ways to get an IR for example). Neither require any previous experience!
Generally integrated is quicker and more expensive. However if you want to get qualified quickly then modular can be a lot quicker. Integrated courses have a fixed time table whereas modular can be done at your own pace (which can mean faster as well as slower).

To explain how modular is different from integrated you have to understand how the licencing system works:
There are many types and levels of licence, but only 3 that matter: PPL, CPL and ATPL ascending in that order.
A PPL lets you fly a plane. You take exams and a flight test.
A CPL lets you fly and get paid for it. Either in command of a single pilot airplane, or as FO on a multi pilot airplane (read: airliner) you take more exams and another flight test (however the ATPL exams are downwards creditable for this and the IR so very few people take the CPL or IR exams, they just skip straight to the ATPL exams)
An ATPL lets you command a multi pilot airplane, and can only realistically be gained through employment as an FO. You've already done the exams so you just need to build 1500 hours/500 multi crew then take the test.

Then you have ratings:
An instrument reading lets you fly in cloud .
A night rating lets you fly at night. Optional with a PPL.
A Class rating lets you fly a class of airplane (eg Single engine piston, multi engine piston).
A type rating lets you fly anything considered complex enough that it requires specialist training. (All airliners).

Then you have the 'extras' :
ATPL theory credit. You need this to get your first multi pilot type rating and to upgrade to ATPL later in your career.
UPRT: upset recovery (aerobatics) - a relatively new addition.
MCC: multi crew cooperation course. Teaches you to work as a team to fly cooperatively.
JOC: Jet orientation course to help prepare you for a jet type rating usually combined with MCC.
APS: Airline pilot standards MCC.

If you go through the modular route you will start with a medical and PPL (which will be done on a SEP and give you that class rating) and finish with a CPL, MEP, MEIR, UPRT and MCC. This is known as a frozen ATPL and is the minimum qualification to get an airline job.
How you get there is up to you. You can buy your own airplane or share to build hours and do each course in any order you like (although there is an optimal). You can do each course in a different school if you like. As soon as you pass your PPL you're a pilot. You can start your ATPL studies. You can take friends out flying. Once you get your night rating you can take them out at night too. You get the idea.

With an integrated course you end up with exactly the same qualification - except you skip the PPL and start with the ATPL theory, then follow a much more prescribed syllabus but you won't hold any licence until the end of the course. And you'll have spent twice the money. For the same licence.

A degree course which gives you a license is pointless. Especially as you already have a degree. You'd be wasting your time and money.
The only thing we haven't covered is the MPL - which is basically an integrated course where you take your test in a simulator and come out with a fATPL AND a Type rating - usually only done in cahoots with a sponsoring airline. And it's multi pilot ONLY, no light aircraft shenanigans.


Originally Posted by Truebluegirl (Post 11343524)
I would like to get as many licences are I can (not just UK). Also, I would be very interested to hear about the job market at the moment. I am very concerned I won't end up employed after all my training (although L3 Harris do say they have fantastic links with the major airlines). My child would be at an adult by the time I finish, so I would have some freedom to move countries etc for employment purposes if this was the case.

More licences are better but cost more money to get and to keep. Unless you are employed you'll have to pay to keep Class ratings, Type ratings and instrument ratings current every year. Once you're employed you'll be sent to the simulator every 6 months to pass your test over and over again. The airline pilots job market is highly cyclical. There are airlines in the UK right now that cannot hire qualified people fast enough. Qualified means type rated and experienced DEP/DEC - direct entry Pilot/Captain. When they run out of those people then they look for experienced people for Non type rated positions NTR. When they run out of those they ask for cadets and pilot apprentices. Many companies take cadets as a matter of course to keep the fleet experience balanced. Those are the jobs you'll be going for. As for moving - that's a given. If your first
job offer is in Kazakhstan then that's where you're going.


Originally Posted by Truebluegirl (Post 11343524)
Finally, I would love to hear about the general life of an airline pilot. I understand it's a very general question depending on the airline you work for, but it would still be very interesting to know. How long are your layovers? When you are employed, do you need to stay with that airline a certain number of years? What are your work patterns like? Can a first officer start off doing long-haul? TIA.

One man's great is another man's nightmare. It depends very much on what you like and your home situation. For stability, go for low cost like Ryanair. 5 on 4 off and you sleep in your own bed every night. At the other end of the spectrum you could be flying a cargo 747 on a 21 day trip (with 21 days off after).
Layovers depend on network design. If your airline flies there every day it'll be 24 hour stops - which are the worst on the body clock. 12-16 or 36-40 is much better.
Some airlines bond people for their training, payable pro rata for leaving before 2 or 3 years, but they're usually unenforceable. If it's a good airline you can stay as long as you like although there are advantages to staying longer - If you got a new type rating you might want to get 1000hrs on it before you left for example to make you more employable. More airlines still fly random roster patterns. Although some like Ryanair and Easy prefer fixed patterns. Basically with a random pattern your life is not your own and weekends do not exist any more. Rosters are written to suit the company and published a month or so in advance. You might have 4 on 2 off 5 on 4 off etc...all at random, they put your off days where it suits them. You can have Roster changes but they can't make you work an off day without your consent. In my last company it was £500 per day for working an off day. Most places have 6-8 weeks Leave bookable in advance, and usually you can request a few days of every month to cater for special occasions. Most cadet positions are for A320/B737 jobs, narrow body short haul. Some airlines that's all there is, so if you want LH you have to move on. I can think of 2 airlines who take cadets straight on to 777 for long haul, but don't expect to get to land the plane very often!

That should cover most of it. If you put in the work and get lucky with the job you'll find it's a great career. Great money and it certainly doesn't feel like work.
You get paid for and train for the 0.1% of the time when things go wrong, but 99.9% of the time it's the easiest job in the world.

OlsAconye 30th Dec 2022 15:01

43 years old here and fully certified, took me 20 years to get here but well worth it. If you believe you can...you will. Tough times don't last but tough people do so go for it.

FlightDetent 30th Dec 2022 17:27

The path from the very outset to a mildly balanced job will be long, around 7 years(*). Before you embark, make sure to know your fallback and replacement options if at any moment it all stops working. Ink on paper.

(*) unless you stumble across a partially sponsored cadet-to-hero course with RYR or alike, which you should snatch immediately without hesitation.

Gargleblaster 9th Mar 2023 07:48

Another one for encouragement: The chief pilot of Icelandair, leading over 500 pilots, is a lady, and now her daughter is a pilot at the domestic part of the company, having decided at an age of 5 to become a pilot: https://www.mbl.is/frettir/innlent/2...ir_icelandair/


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