PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) (https://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies-14/)
-   -   Becoming a pilot After COVID-19 (https://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/631062-becoming-pilot-after-covid-19-a.html)

speedo777 9th May 2020 18:48


Originally Posted by Christopher Robin (Post 10736715)
I would like to wish you luck and say enjoy your flying see you on the flight line one day

Oh and it is not the end of aviation full stop.

I totally agree with you. It's not the end of aviation.

ced0802 10th May 2020 15:36


Originally Posted by MichaelOLearyGenius (Post 10778344)
Just got result, passed my assessment with FTE Jerez, starting September integrated. Can’t wait. They’ve said there will be a ton of jobs waiting when I finish.

As they would say the contrary..

Bridgestone17 10th May 2020 16:04


Originally Posted by MichaelOLearyGenius (Post 10778344)
Just got result, passed my assessment with FTE Jerez, starting September integrated. Can’t wait. They’ve said there will be a ton of jobs waiting when I finish.

They would say that wouldn't they!
Like lambs to the slaughter. It is very irresponsible of them to give you false hope just because you want to be a Pilot. They simply want your money.
Consider the worldwide economic downturn - will people have spare money to go on holiday? There is possibly a major financial depression about to happen.
Consider public confidence in the travel industry - look at the way current customers are not being refunded for cancelled trips. Most will become reluctant to commit large sums of money for what could be a non-event.
Consider a suitable public immunisation programme - a vaccine hasn't even been developed yet. There will have to be a universal agreement on health requirements at point of entry and departure otherwise 2 weeks holiday PLUS 2 weeks quarantine will be unrealistic for most travellers.
There was a major shortage of Flying Instructors at most schools so will there be enough staff for them to carry out these courses?
Consider all those experienced unemployed Pilots chasing after too few jobs
Two years is too soon. Try 5, go Modular and save a fortune.........

PilotLZ 10th May 2020 16:24


Originally Posted by MichaelOLearyGenius (Post 10778344)
Just got result, passed my assessment with FTE Jerez, starting September integrated. Can’t wait. They’ve said there will be a ton of jobs waiting when I finish.

Of all examples of trolling I've seen on that forum that was well and by far the finest. Great irony - but, sadly, that's what any overexcited and underinformed candidate will hear if they ask the marketing department of any FTO that has one... As long as they have done their job, yours becomes entirely your own problem.

squidie 10th May 2020 16:56


Originally Posted by Bridgestone17 (Post 10778433)
They would say that wouldn't they!
Like lambs to the slaughter. It is very irresponsible of them to give you false hope just because you want to be a Pilot. They simply want your money.
Consider the worldwide economic downturn - will people have spare money to go on holiday? There is possibly a major financial depression about to happen.
Consider public confidence in the travel industry - look at the way current customers are not being refunded for cancelled trips. Most will become reluctant to commit large sums of money for what could be a non-event.
Consider a suitable public immunisation programme - a vaccine hasn't even been developed yet. There will have to be a universal agreement on health requirements at point of entry and departure otherwise 2 weeks holiday PLUS 2 weeks quarantine will be unrealistic for most travellers.
There was a major shortage of Flying Instructors at most schools so will there be enough staff for them to carry out these courses?
Consider all those experienced unemployed Pilots chasing after too few jobs
Two years is too soon. Try 5, go Modular and save a fortune.........

Not the first time I’ve heard that recently, but only from integrated schools that will go under if they ARE honest to their students. Try ask this question to an FTO that offers only modular training? Or someone who has been working in the industry? I agree that businesses need to survive, but I also agree that they should be honest with their students and not lead them down the wrong path.

Any upfront costs into aviation training for the next several years is going to be very risky. If you have hundreds of thousands to potentially waste then yeah you go for it. Having just the right amount of money for an integrated course then I’d suggest save it for when the industry begins to recover because if you loose it now you’ll probably never get the chance again.

It’s not rocket science this, it’s all over the main stream media so there is very little digging to actually do. IAG, Ryanair, BALPA all saying its going to take several years to get back to the pre-covid19 demand. So why a school offering a massively expensive course would know any better. Beyond me.

parkfell 11th May 2020 07:39


Originally Posted by MichaelOLearyGenius (Post 10778344)
Just got result, passed my assessment with FTE Jerez, starting September integrated. Can’t wait. They’ve said there will be a ton of jobs waiting when I finish.

I think this person is a local Prestwick spotter of a certain vintage, who might have done his PPL in the USA a number of years ago. Search function will reveal postings in the Ryanair recruitment / simulator thread warning against training just now. See the Interview section. I have replied on that thread and captured his posting as a quote.

The posting has all the hallmarks of being a ‘wind up’ to get a reaction from those he likes to antagonise. Quite a few of them given the reaction.

Demonstrating a lack of maturity, as he likes to have a laugh at others misfortune. I believe the Germans have a word for those who like to see others suffer. SCHADENFREUDE

Probably best to give this individual a wide berth in future and disregard any future idiotic postings.



squidie 11th May 2020 09:13


Originally Posted by parkfell (Post 10779004)
I think this person is a local Prestwick spotter of a certain vintage, who might have done his PPL in the USA a number of years ago. Search function will reveal postings in the Ryanair recruitment / simulator thread warning against training just now. See the Interview section. I have replied on that thread and captured his posting as a quote.

The posting has all the hallmarks of being a ‘wind up’ to get a reaction from those he likes to antagonise. Quite a few of them given the reaction.

Demonstrating a lack of maturity, as he likes to have a laugh at others misfortune. I believe the Germans have a word for those who like to see others suffer. SCHADENFREUDE

Probably best to give this individual a wide berth in future and disregard any future idiotic postings.

I did suspect troll a tad, but at least my info is out there for others to take into account.

pug 11th May 2020 10:29


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10775983)
Not just the FTOs though was it?

Every six months or so somebody would be on here breathlessly linking to an article claiming the world would be short of 100,000, 500,000 or 1,000,000 pilots within the next...and it wasn't just those who were actively looking at sitting in the seat that got carried away - there's no doubt some parents saw funding their nearest and dearest as a financial investment and were looking for a return, rather than a way of facilitating their offspring get into a personally rewarding career.

I fully take your point, and I think what Alex Whittingham said about confirmation bias is true - perhaps those articles being linked were the deal clincher? But in my experience seeing people coming through they all seemed to know the risks involved and were highly commercially aware. Perhaps some of the integrated students are different, I’ve not come across so many from that background to make a judgement.

I do have great sympathy for those at the end of their MPL training to find that their jobs are no longer there, or their mentored airline is no longer in existence! It can’t be denied that even the more ‘realistic’ members on this forum had been advocates of only training if tagged by an airline.

Hopefully in a couple of years things won’t be looking so bleak, where some airlines may struggle there may be new opportunities once confidence returns. I find it hard to believe that it won’t eventually improve.

therapist 11th May 2020 14:07

Very sensible advise. Belt and Braces = back up plan.

18greens 11th May 2020 20:24

Whilst COVID has given our government a chance to meet its co2 emissions targets I fear we will be back to messing up the planet before we know it.

Inevitably that will mean more cars, more planes and more pilots sooner than you think.

tsvpilot 12th May 2020 04:14


Originally Posted by PilotLZ (Post 10778448)
Of all examples of trolling I've seen on that forum that was well and by far the finest. Great irony - but, sadly, that's what any overexcited and underinformed candidate will hear if they ask the marketing department of any FTO that has one... As long as they have done their job, yours becomes entirely your own problem.

Not sure who is more naive student falling for a glossy brochure or people calling FTOs out for making them. It would be rather poor marketing if instead of a glossy brochure they were sending out matte flyers informing their potential clients that flight training is an incredibly risky investment and there is no guarantee of a job. If I go to a realtor I don't expect them to advise against buying a house because it's better to rent. It's indeed a business and they are marketing their business most efficient way possible. By no means is it FTOs job to act as a career & financial adviser to ensure their potential client doesn't make a bad investment by buying their service.

uncle dickie 12th May 2020 06:32

A point of view
 

Originally Posted by tsvpilot (Post 10779901)
Not sure who is more naive student falling for a glossy brochure or people calling FTOs out for making them. It would be rather poor marketing if instead of a glossy brochure they were sending out matte flyers informing their potential clients that flight training is an incredibly risky investment and there is no guarantee of a job. If I go to a realtor I don't expect them to advise against buying a house because it's better to rent. It's indeed a business and they are marketing their business most efficient way possible. By no means is it FTOs job to act as a career & financial adviser to ensure their potential client doesn't make a bad investment by buying their service.

The ATO must be honest and trustworthy in all communications with prospective customers. This means that they make clear the limits of their knowledge and make reasonable checks to ensure the information given is accurate.
When advertising services they must ensure that the information published is factual and can be checked and does not exploit their vulnerability or lack of aviation knowledge.
They must ensure that any document is not false or misleading.
They must not deliberately leave out relevant information.

A honest business will always get customers as ‘word of mouth’ is the best form of advertising possible, as this website often demonstrates.


tsvpilot 12th May 2020 08:14


Originally Posted by uncle dickie (Post 10779963)
The ATO must be honest and trustworthy in all communications with prospective customers. .

Is there any public demonstration of any ATO doing dishonest marketing? I checked the mentioned FTEjerez I could see them doing nothing wrong on their website. I don't think anyone is claiming to offer a guaranteed job. Saying "now it's a good time to start training" or "airliners will start hiring again" isn't more dishonest than saying the opposite.

parkfell 12th May 2020 09:15


Originally Posted by tsvpilot (Post 10780056)
..........I don't think anyone is claiming to offer a guaranteed job. Saying "now it's a good time to start training" or "airliners will start hiring again" isn't more dishonest than saying the opposite.

Whilst you are quite correct that no ATO can ever guarantee employment for a ‘whitetail’ customer, you miss the point by cherry picking part of Uncle Dickies post.

You must take the whole post as best practice, as it is, in essence, an indivisible framework to adopt.

It is true that “airliners(sic) will start hiring again”. The question is when. Given the number of known ‘unknowns’ that generates a wide range of starting dates.

What would be a honest answer to give a potential customer? Honesty is what you sincerely believe to be true.

I would suggest the best anyone can do just now is an inspired guess, even with Ryanair announcing today that they intend to operate 1,000 flights by 1 July, subject to restrictions being lifted
[TIMES on line article today]

.......” a good time to start training”. I would opine that the answer may well be inextricable linked to the hiring question.

Whilst the Integrated training route is invariably the quickest way to qualify, the Modular route allows you to set you own pace as the present crisis unfolds.

RedDragonFlyer 12th May 2020 16:50


Originally Posted by parkfell (Post 10780117)
.......” a good time to start training”. I would opine that the answer may well be inextricable linked to the hiring question.

Whilst the Integrated training route is invariably the quickest way to qualify, the Modular route allows you to set you own pace as the present crisis unfolds.

I think anyone reading this would be sensible to follow this advice.

Nobody knows when things will 'pick up' again in terms of hiring. We all hope it will be as soon as possible, but we all need to be realistic. It is unlikely to be anytime soon and 2022 seems the soonest it could feasibly be and we could very well be looking closer to the middle of the decade.

Remember: Never lend money that you couldn't afford to pay back without a flying job. Always have a back-up plan if things don't work out as you expect them. Don't expect to walk into a shiny jet cockpit when finishing your training. Always give yourself as much flexibility as possible.

Flexibility means going modular and it has many advantages. You can take a break when training. Perhaps do the PPL and ATPL exams and take a break to see how the market is developing - You have 36 months to do the CPL and IR after finishing them. It is overall much cheaper to go modular as well.



Jimmy The Big Greek 12th May 2020 18:35


Originally Posted by MichaelOLearyGenius (Post 10778344)
Just got result, passed my assessment with FTE Jerez, starting September integrated. Can’t wait. They’ve said there will be a ton of jobs waiting when I finish.

May the force be with you, Luke Skywalker :}

Negan 12th May 2020 21:35

Pilot Training was a huge gamble before COVID and now it's just a flat out no go. My advice to anyone would be to wait about a year and see how the market recovers before parting ways with upwards of 60k to live your "dream" you will hear flight schools using that word a lot now to convince you to do the pilot training with them. There is a backlog of experienced pilots on the market after bankruptcies and downsizing and the airlines are not going to look at 200 hour CPL pilots when they have trained pilots with years of experience looking for jobs.

Just my 2 cent on the matter.

PilotLZ 12th May 2020 22:01

Timing is king and you need to be realistic about it. Right now, I can't see any significant opportunities for 200-hour beginners until mid-to-late 2022 at the very earliest. I'm actually tempted to say 2023, to err on the safe side. That's all based on interpolation from the numerous forecasts I studied in the past weeks.

How does this translate to you? If you intend on starting tomorrow full-time and finishing it all in 18 months, you will graduate in November 2021. Factor in at least 6 months for job hunting (that's often the case even in good times) - and you will still fall short of the window when significant improvement of the market is likely to happen. If, however, you start in a year from today with the same time to completion - you will likely find yourself in a far better position when you graduate. Or, alternatively, you can start now but space it out some more, aiming to finish by about Christmas 2022 for example.

The question of whether to start anything right now and follow a more spaced-out timeframe or start in a year and do everything in a more condensed manner depends entirely on your personal circumstances. Money? Job? Location? Situation at intended FTO - i.e. can they be trusted with any amount of money upfront or do they look even remotely likely to go under with it? If you start anything anytime soon, will you be able to travel to the training location? Will they have adequate resources to train you in a timely and efficient manner since there's likely to be a backlog on courses which were cut short by the lockdown? Research those questions, and research them very thoroughly. You can only make the right decisions with the right information in hand.

TRENT210 12th May 2020 22:16

Would big ATO’s not strike a deal with Airlines like EasyJet to prioritise their future fresh graduates first?

Its beneficial to both the ATO’s and the airline.
The ATO’s can keep selling the £120k dream and the airlines have a steady stream of fresh graduates they can pay less.

Obviously the airlines could just pay the future experienced pilots they hire less, but by taking on fresh meat they could strike a deal for cheaper ongoing access to sim time etc with the ATO’s. Then just bridge any gap in experience with a few direct entry FO’s

Everybody wins... except experienced FO’s

parkfell 13th May 2020 06:28


Originally Posted by TRENT210 (Post 10780808)
Would big ATO’s not strike a deal with Airlines like EasyJet to prioritise their future fresh graduates first?

Its beneficial to both the ATO’s and the airline.
The ATO’s can keep selling the £120k dream and the airlines have a steady stream of fresh graduates they can pay less.

Obviously the airlines could just pay the future experienced pilots they hire less, but by taking on fresh meat they could strike ,a deal for cheaper ongoing access to sim time etc with the ATO’s. Then just bridge any gap in experience with a few direct entry FO’s

Everybody wins... except experienced FO’s

If previous experience is any guide, they only wanted your “fresh meat” which means completed the CPL/IR/MCC in the last month, when they need junior birdmen on the hurry up.

Those competent juniors even ‘in store’ for say 3 months had past their ‘sell by date’ in the eyes of EZY on that occasion.

Now, that was then, and just what they say in future is a matter for conjecture.

Being in the right place at the right time will as ever play a crucial part in getting that all important first job.
Timing will be of the essence.



All times are GMT. The time now is 19:19.


Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.