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-   -   Becoming a pilot After COVID-19 (https://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/631062-becoming-pilot-after-covid-19-a.html)

Cistor 11th Apr 2020 11:13


Originally Posted by CaptainCriticalAngle (Post 10745678)
I received an email two days ago from L3 saying that they were now conducting assessments online and are still encouraging people to apply. Apparently they are also giving ATPL theory lessons online, which is good for the students I guess.

I'm a modular fan myself and have never bought into these expensive pilot factories. I'm just slightly perturbed by the nature of the email; they are still pushing people to apply. I guess if you started now, in 18 months the outlook could be better, but what a gamble.

For what it's worth, here's my tuppence for any wannabe pilots reading this - avoid MPLs, avoid the factories. Big is not always safe. Small schools are great and you won't be just a number. Modular produces better all-round pilots. Any training captain worth his salt (and it's normally a he) will know that.

Understatement. But you know it's all shiny...

Banana Joe 11th Apr 2020 12:25

Go modular. Start now if you have a place nearby where they do training at this moment, otherwise wait but you can start studying. Good Oxford Aviation Academy's CBTs are available on YouTube for both PPL and ATPL level and Phil Croucher's books (paco on here) for both PPL and ATPL are great. A good read.

covec 11th Apr 2020 22:34

Al Jazeera reporting UK new epicentre...be awhile yet afore the UK slides back into normality...then BREXIT...

Northern Monkey 12th Apr 2020 09:08

I don't subscribe to the doom laden scenarios peddled by some whereby there are no new jobs for 10 years. However, now is categorically NOT the moment to start flight training, modular or otherwise. Despite whatever some flying schools may try to tell you.


MaverickPrime 12th Apr 2020 13:26

I did all of training at small schools/clubs up until the CPL course. The rest was at a big ATO and I regret going to them.

TryingToAvoidCBs 12th Apr 2020 14:07

Agree with virtually everything mentioned already, now is not the time to start training. It's the time to start looking at training providers, what you realistically can afford and where you realistically see yourself in the next 5-10 years with and without a pilots licence.
Integrated is a bad move, MPL even worse. If you are determined to start this year, as everyone has said, go modular. Take your time and don't plan on being finished until around 2025 at the earliest as I can't see any airlines hiring newbies within that time frame.
Remember if you finish earlier you're going to have to keep your licences and medical current anyway which is at least £1,000+ every year. Also remember once you've done your ATPLs, you've got 36 months to get everything else finished, so plan ahead and plan to be finished when you start to see positive changes in the industry. This is the beauty of the modular route, you can change your rate of training to match what's happening in the industry. And if you need to completely stop for a year or two, you can.

parkfell 12th Apr 2020 16:56


Originally Posted by TryingToAvoidCBs (Post 10747737)
..........If you are determined to start this year, as everyone has said, go modular. Take your time and don't plan on being finished until around 2025 at the earliest as I can't see any airlines hiring newbies within that time frame...........

Whilst it is quite correct that it will take a while, even considerable time, before ‘normal service is resumed’, no one knows just yet when that will be.
A clearer picture will emerge later this year, if not in months.

Do not despair.

If everyone took the advice above, then there would be no ATOs left when the upturn comes?
So deals will be available. Get your negotiating skills finely tuned. But be careful.
Avoid any payments up front for large discounts.

Carry out DUE DILIGENCE.

Fortunately the potential junior birdmen have sufficient grey manner to weigh up what is what.
They will decide the best time to commence, be it Modular or Integrated.

Provided your Class One Medical is renewed within 5 years of expiry, your AME (Class one) can renew it.
Ratings again: there are rules regarding those which have expired and need to be renewed. Look them up for the latest regulations.

I know that these are unbelievable times.
Far worse than the aftermath of 9/11.
Above all keep the faith.

VariablePitchP 12th Apr 2020 18:45


Originally Posted by CaptainCriticalAngle (Post 10745985)
Hello tsvpilot,

Right then, where do I start. Well, it's certainly been a long time since anyone called me ignorant, but look, I accept that this is not a scientific argument and neither side can actually win. But I'm sticking to my opinion that modular studies produces more well-rounded pilots. I could probably write a book about it but this isn't the place for a 20,000-word analysis.

I have been to most of the big integrated school, on more than one occasion. I know people who have been through the system and they tell me they felt like a number and not a student. I know people who have forked out £110,000 to study at a big school in Spain and are currently completing their ATPL theory studies online in London. They have mixed feelings about the system. Certainly, FI/student ratio is an issue, among others.

And I reiterate that I would never recommend anyone do an MPL. Well before the commercial aviation sector recovers to the level where they're taking on cadets in large numbers, there will be jobs to apply for in other sectors (just look at the NPAS website). An MPL will be useless here unless you spend another small fortune in training.

And I really do believe smaller schools have a more extended family-like atmosphere and that suits some people better. You can do an 'integrated modular' of course and you still have the flexibility to take a break and it's significantly cheaper because smaller schools don't have massive marketing overheads.

Lastly, and most crucially, where did I state that men are better pilots than women? My guess is that English is not your first language and that something has been lost in translation. I could have written 'every training captain worth his/her salt'. And anyway, the fact remains that most training captains are men, although I am sure this will change with time.

Happy Landings!

You can’t say modular makes ‘better pilots’, everyone passes the same CPL/IR tests, someone who spends five years doing the training will be fat rustier than a fresh integrated student.

Yes, L3 will treat you the same way they’d treat someone that had just poured a tonne of raw sewage into their head office. But that doesn’t mean their instructors are any less capable; they just happen to have got a job there.

I do agree with your point about the family atmosphere, FTE will never feel like a flying school and that is something I would have loved to have had that during my training.

Making the decision to go modular does not make you divinely gifted or morally superior, it’s just another way of training. It’s what I’d do at the moment, but that’s just because of the circumstances, not because it’s inherently better.

A320LGW 12th Apr 2020 23:48


Originally Posted by VariablePitchP (Post 10747977)
You can’t say modular makes ‘better pilots’, everyone passes the same CPL/IR tests, someone who spends five years doing the training will be fat rustier than a fresh integrated student.

Yes, L3 will treat you the same way they’d treat someone that had just poured a tonne of raw sewage into their head office. But that doesn’t mean their instructors are any less capable; they just happen to have got a job there.

I do agree with your point about the family atmosphere, FTE will never feel like a flying school and that is something I would have loved to have had that during my training.

Making the decision to go modular does not make you divinely gifted or morally superior, it’s just another way of training. It’s what I’d do at the moment, but that’s just because of the circumstances, not because it’s inherently better.

I'm not sure. I have seen some people who quite simply cannot fly, I have done assessments with them. I have no idea how they have a license, they were modular students ... yet they should not hold a license. Obviously some examiner somewhere thought otherwise and it really isn't my call, but to say I wouldn't like my family to ever be on board on aircraft with them is an understatement to say the very least.

The situational awareness of a blind chicken hopping about the farmyard coupled with the hand eye coordination of a 2 legged cat on steroids. It truly is astonishing what a simple sim session can reveal.

Unable to hold an altitude, not knowing how to use a VOR, not knowing how to intercept a radial, setting heading on course and vice versa, not knowing how to hold (forget how to join one), unable to fly towards intercepting a localiser and certainly unable to fly a stable ILS approach.

So one cannot simply say modular = good and integrated = bad, I am sure both systems have produced good and bad people.

What you perhaps could say is that those who went modular generally speaking (I emphasise generally speaking) are more mature and appreciative of the whole experience than someone who walked out of school straight into integrated flight school funded by their parents?

Ability wise though, it's totally unfounded that any training method delivers better pilots. Natural, raw ability is born in the person, it is not and cannot be taught by any training programme, regardless of the type.

tsvpilot 13th Apr 2020 04:09


Originally Posted by CaptainCriticalAngle (Post 10745985)
Hello tsvpilot,

Hi. You were right by saying bigger is not always better, but then to state that small schools are great (because you know a lot of people with bad experiences with big schools??) is a mere assumption. A well-run school is good regardless of its size and vice versa. The same applies to airlines, small airlines are not somehow better than bigger ones are they? And yet you are a number to most of them because after all, it's a business, but you can still expect a professional service as a customer. Often times the only difference is that a small company just has fewer planes & staff, but they can still have the same ratio of students as the bigger ones do. Small companies do not have a better organizational structure or better staff by default, this is entirely dependent on the competency and mindset of the management. The greater number of bad reviews towards bigger companies is of course because they train multiple times more students than smaller ones do. A size simply has nothing to do with how good/bad the school might be.

Then to claim that modular pilots are considered to be better pilots by the industry is just nonsense. There's nothing to base this upon other than your assumption/opinion. The training is essentially the same, same syllabus, same hours, same exams. The only variables are on the individual level and the flight training quality which are independent of the paths.



Cistor 13th Apr 2020 06:59


Originally Posted by VariablePitchP (Post 10747977)
You can’t say modular makes ‘better pilots’, everyone passes the same CPL/IR tests, someone who spends five years doing the training will be fat rustier than a fresh integrated student.

Yes, L3 will treat you the same way they’d treat someone that had just poured a tonne of raw sewage into their head office. But that doesn’t mean their instructors are any less capable; they just happen to have got a job there.

I do agree with your point about the family atmosphere, FTE will never feel like a flying school and that is something I would have loved to have had that during my training.

Making the decision to go modular does not make you divinely gifted or morally superior, it’s just another way of training. It’s what I’d do at the moment, but that’s just because of the circumstances, not because it’s inherently better.

Sorry if that's a but out of topic but what about the fact you take the CPL or IRME exam with the same guys that train you in your ATO?

I mean, does conflict of interest resonate in anyone's mind? I've always found that very questionable, especially if there's any intention to squeeze you out of a few more dollars...

shaun ryder 13th Apr 2020 07:51

CaptainCriticalAngle

Small schools are great and you won't be just a number. Modular produces better all-round pilots. Any training captain worth his salt (and it's normally a he) will know that.
BS. I fly (well used too until this pandemic) with both modular and integrated cadets, you can NOT tell the difference. Admittedly you get the odd cocky bar steward who’s been to Uni then an integrated school. I will say that the modular people display more gumption rather than arrogance, the operating ability is generally the same. You are going to screw up regardless of where you have trained, it’s whether or not you can take the friendly advice and learn from your mistakes. You are always going to get some action man who knows better though.


I'm not sure. I have seen some people who quite simply cannot fly, I have done assessments with them. I have no idea how they have a license, they were modular students ... yet they should not hold a license. Obviously some examiner somewhere thought otherwise and it really isn't my call, but to say I wouldn't like my family to ever be on board on aircraft with them is an understatement to say the very least.
Don’t kid yourself, they aren’t all ‘modular’ students, see above. In a bygone era (ended a few months ago) the sausage factories pumped out these junior jet pilots to the various airline training depts, who then process them and lump them on the line captains. You’ve got the licence and rating, passed the line check, you only learn for real once on the line. That takes time regardless of an integrated or modular background. Passing the exams vs passion for aviation?

On to topic now; what’s more to say? Don’t blow your resources, be smart, the wind has changed for sure. Integrated ‘may now’ be the only way in for a new CPL just out of nappies. Supply and demand = the bar being raised.





parkfell 13th Apr 2020 09:00


Originally Posted by A320LGW (Post 10748163)

..........Unable to hold an altitude, not knowing how to use a VOR, not knowing how to intercept a radial, setting heading on course and vice versa, not knowing how to hold (forget how to join one), unable to fly towards intercepting a localiser and certainly unable to fly a stable ILS approach.

So one cannot simply say modular = good and integrated = bad, I am sure both systems have produced good and bad people..........

........ Natural, raw ability is born in the person, it is not and cannot be taught by any training programme.......

A320LGW is making some interesting and valid points.

Unless the ATOs Standards Departments ensure that new FIs are competent before being released to instruct, there are going to be issues. They set the ‘standard’ and also act as the QUALITY DEPARTMENT.

Carrying out a Progress Test can be very revealing as to the way the students are taught, and the quality of instruction.
Having multiple instructors in any phase of training is not recommended. Continuity is very important especially for the weaker brethren.

The fundamental skill which must be taught early in the training is accurate TRIMMING for the various visual attitudes and becomes a critical skill to fly a stabilised ILS approach.

The best way to teach students in the applied IF phase is to practice the route/approaches in the simulator the day before flying it the following day. The more routes and airports used during training the better.
A far greater awareness and airmanship develops.
Simply flying routes A & B prior to IR test does not develop the necessary skills, and results in the comments made by A320.

There is also high degree of correlation between learning curve demonstrated in IR training phase for CPL/IR issue and that seen during the MCC/JOC/APS course.
The experienced IR instructor will predict with a high degree of certainty whether the student is the “right stuff”.


Richard Dangle 14th Apr 2020 02:05

Ironically Pprune is probably about the worst place to get advice about a career in commercial aviation right now, simply because most posters will be posting through emotion rather than rationality - they would lack humanity if they were not, because many on here are deeply attached to flying and will be in bits at what is happening right now...especially those whose mortgage currently depends on it, and my heart goes out to them.

There is far too much speculation as to what the future holds, especially as we are probably months away (2021) before any sort of normality returns to global commercial aviation and people are only guessing at the likely outcomes before we get going again, let alone afterwards. But I think it is inevitable that economics will not be the only factor in play. Globally the world will prepare for the next Covid or some such, so going forwards there is going to be some form of stringent medical border control, where currently there is very little (usually none). This will inevitably make international borders less porous than they were/are and significantly add to the costs of international travel.

It is also inevitable that business travel (not just air travel, all of it) will hugely reduce. This was happening anyway; Covid 19, has jammed the foot down on the gas pedal and then some. This is not speculation it is commercial business reality and it will spread to all sectors.

And before any of this was happening , there was an embryonic youth demographic emerging against the enviromental consequences of flying...that's not gone away, and that's tomorrows passengers we are talking about. As my boss puts it...flying is just not cool anymore.

I have no idea what commercial aviation will look like post Covid 19 and I doubt many people do. But I'm comfortably certain of two things:

1. We are not going back to what we had before.
2. Comparisons with previous events, not matter how dramatic, offer very few clues as to how this one will turn out.

My advice to prospective students wanting to enter the industry. Unless you or your parents have money to burn, now is not the time. And it fills me with sadness to say that, but anything else is hardly rational.

MaverickPrime 17th Apr 2020 09:49


Originally Posted by Richard Dangle (Post 10749223)
It is also inevitable that business travel (not just air travel, all of it) will hugely reduce.

They said similar in the wake of the 2008 recession; business travel wouldn’t recover and more people would holiday from home.

All of these managers and executives love an excuse for a cheeky ‘business’ trip, as soon as they can fly again they will.

As for the masses as soon as they can afford to and think it’s safe enough, they’ll be back in Benidorm and Tenerife.

I hear your sentiments about flying not being cool anymore, but I just don’t think this matters to the silent majority.

I’d be more worried about how this virus will accelerate the devaluation of money and increase the rate of inflation world wide which is what is making us all poorer.

Richard Dangle 17th Apr 2020 11:10

^^

I'm not here to enter an debate about the future of flying, because none of us know it. All of your points are valid, but also debateable. As are mine.

I'm just here to give an honest, rational point of view (and its just one of many) to anybody thinking of spending money on flying training right now.

And my view is...wait until this over (completely over, ie a vaccine is operational). Then take stock and proceed with caution. Have a credible plan B.

And done. Stay safe all.


3Greens 19th Apr 2020 13:04

And what If there isn’t a vaccine forthcoming? Like for all the other coronavirsues out there, like the cold? The whole world is throwing money at it, with the best scientists and big pharmaceutical companies and universities...and yet no one is even close right now because of the very nature of how corona viruses mutate.

rudestuff 19th Apr 2020 14:18

Is there ever a good time to start training? Probably when others aren't. Sure, you could wait until the industry has recovered but then you'll be in the same position as everyone else. Or you could go for it now and spend a fortune keeping current only to be passed over because you qualified too long ago.
If someone has the money and the dream, then my advice would be to go for it 80%. By that I mean get a PPL, do some hour building, take the ATPL exams, get an IRR, CBIR and CPL - but do it all single engine.

​​​​Then stop.

You've just spent £30k to get within a month of the finish line, with all hoops jumped through. No need to worry about ATPLs expiring (for at least 7 years!) Nothing to keep current - just let everything lapse until you're ready for the last step - because you've only got 10 hours of MEP training and an MCC/JOC course left to do. When the time is right, you're a fATPL with a one month lead time. And when you write your CV the important bits (The MEIR and MCC/JOC) will be brand new.

PilotLZ 19th Apr 2020 17:23


Originally Posted by rudestuff (Post 10755578)
Is there ever a good time to start training? Probably when others aren't. Sure, you could wait until the industry has recovered but then you'll be in the same position as everyone else. Or you could go for it now and spend a fortune keeping current only to be passed over because you qualified too long ago.
If someone has the money and the dream, then my advice would be to go for it 80%. By that I mean get a PPL, do some hour building, take the ATPL exams, get an IRR, CBIR and CPL - but do it all single engine.

​​​​Then stop.

You've just spent £30k to get within a month of the finish line, with all hoops jumped through. No need to worry about ATPLs expiring (for at least 7 years!) Nothing to keep current - just let everything lapse until you're ready for the last step - because you've only got 10 hours of MEP training and an MCC/JOC course left to do. When the time is right, you're a fATPL with a one month lead time. And when you write your CV the important bits (The MEIR and MCC/JOC) will be brand new.

Very well said. One never knows what world we might be living in after 2, 3, 4 or 5 years. And getting up to the MEP IR, MCC and JOC bit is by no means quick business. I would say that 2 years from scratch to this point is a fairly optimistic timeline. Possibly more if you have to juggle it with a full-time job, a degree and less-than-perfect weather for most of the year.

UAV689 21st Apr 2020 11:46

Norwegian crewing subsidiary’s failed

virgin oz now in administration
virgin Atlantic on shaky ground
Logan needs government support
cityjet Ireland administrators called in

alone these will put at a rough guess nearly 5000 qualifed pilots on the market?

not even started the shrinking of bizjet world yet, with the recession bizjet operations gets hit very hard.

now really is not the time to go anywhere near a training school!!!

and shame on the big schools for still peddling lies.

Alex Whittingham 22nd Apr 2020 11:04

Shame indeed, but it is easy to catastrophise these failures. The airline market has been so good for so long that there are a number of highly leveraged and struggling airlines around that would not have survived in a harsher market. A correction like this, or 9/11, or 2008 is like the lions taking out the Wildebeest from the edges of the herd. Considering Norwegian and VA, for instance, they are both competing to an extent in the same market, and both were struggling in the best market for years. Likely at least one will go to the wall but the survivor will pick up the spare business when life returns to normal, hire extra crews etc. The bigger question is what 'normal' will be like in the extended period post-lockdown when it is v likely there will still be travel restrictions in place for how long? 9 months? a year?. Logan and Flybe are different cases, the government could take the position that supporting them is a duty to maintain regional connectivity in a post-lockdown market that may not naturally give them a working business case. It's a 'wait and see'. IMHO the MPL shiny school model is seriously fractured, but people forget over time...

CurlyB 22nd Apr 2020 16:41


Originally Posted by rudestuff (Post 10755578)
Is there ever a good time to start training? Probably when others aren't. Sure, you could wait until the industry has recovered but then you'll be in the same position as everyone else. Or you could go for it now and spend a fortune keeping current only to be passed over because you qualified too long ago.
If someone has the money and the dream, then my advice would be to go for it 80%. By that I mean get a PPL, do some hour building, take the ATPL exams, get an IRR, CBIR and CPL - but do it all single engine.

​​​​Then stop.

You've just spent £30k to get within a month of the finish line, with all hoops jumped through. No need to worry about ATPLs expiring (for at least 7 years!) Nothing to keep current - just let everything lapse until you're ready for the last step - because you've only got 10 hours of MEP training and an MCC/JOC course left to do. When the time is right, you're a fATPL with a one month lead time. And when you write your CV the important bits (The MEIR and MCC/JOC) will be brand new.

Great advice, thanks

P40Warhawk 22nd Apr 2020 19:44


Originally Posted by UAV689 (Post 10758029)

virgin oz now in administration
virgin Atlantic on shaky ground
Logan needs government support
cityjet Ireland administrators called in

In Germany:
Today sadly bankrupt Luftfahrtgesellschaft Walter. About 120 Dash8 Q400 Pilots. Mother company WDL is also on shaky ground as Eurowings terminated Wetlease contract with LGW with the result LGW going bankrupt.

Another one which might fall soon is Condor as LOT was to take over Condor, but as LOT is having hard time as well the merger with Condor is cancelled.

Long message short, do NOT start any training. If you have finished already and thinking of doing TR, DONT do it. Dont waste any money on Aviation. Aviation is completely dead. Study for smt useful and maybe later do modular training without having any debt after the training.

UAV689 22nd Apr 2020 23:16


Originally Posted by Alex Whittingham (Post 10759044)
Shame indeed, but it is easy to catastrophise these failures. The airline market has been so good for so long that there are a number of highly leveraged and struggling airlines around that would not have survived in a harsher market. A correction like this, or 9/11, or 2008 is like the lions taking out the Wildebeest from the edges of the herd. Considering Norwegian and VA, for instance, they are both competing to an extent in the same market, and both were struggling in the best market for years. Likely at least one will go to the wall but the survivor will pick up the spare business when life returns to normal, hire extra crews etc. The bigger question is what 'normal' will be like in the extended period post-lockdown when it is v likely there will still be travel restrictions in place for how long? 9 months? a year?. Logan and Flybe are different cases, the government could take the position that supporting them is a duty to maintain regional connectivity in a post-lockdown market that may not naturally give them a working business case. It's a 'wait and see'. IMHO the MPL shiny school model is seriously fractured, but people forget over time...

This is a millions miles from 08 or 9/11. Both those times airlines still flew! Airlines here are not flying for months! When they do fly again, they are in effect having 3 winters in a row of buisness at best. At worst, 3 winters worth of traffic coupled with awful recession.

nas and vs are only competitors for about 30 of nas fleet. They will dump 120 airframes worth of 737 drivers on the market if it goes bust in its entirety. Probably 1200+ pilots. Where are they going to go? If they all go to ryr, that is 2 years of zero recruitment required at ryr for cadets.

We are going into a huge whammy of changes in customer behaviour far worse than 9/11 or 08 ever was.

Buisness are shrinking in terms of staff size and turnover, buisness traffic will take years to recover.
Companies have been forced to embrace remote working, they will now know its possible and works perfectly well, and less travel is needed in the future.
Many customers will be unwilling to travel, they do not want to queue at supermarkets,they will not want to sit in a tube, thats if they can afford it in the first place with the fact potentially 2m will lose their jobs according to the OBR.

Then we could also end up with this crazy idea of removing seats on aircraft for social distancing, driving up ticket fares, putting off more from flying.

You are absolutely correct in saying it is easy to turn this into a catastrophe. I think catastrophe is not a strong enough word for what is about to happen.

I cannot see the legacies needing to run a cadet course now for 10 years. Ezy are deferring orders, wizz laying off, ryr boeing fleet has not grown for 2 years now, lufty predicting years to recover with a permanent fleet reduction. The list is endless.

Stay away from training unless you have won the lottery!

RoyHudd 22nd Apr 2020 23:32

Alex W is a top-drawer trainer. Credit and respect.

As regards airline jobs, just forget them. The big number of experienced and type-rated pilots on the market means there are no jobs for new folk for many years. Nobody will want you, however poor the pay. There will be so many who are desperate for jobs, all of whom have plenty of experience.

parkfell 23rd Apr 2020 07:12


Originally Posted by RoyHudd (Post 10759689)
Alex W is a top-drawer trainer. Credit and respect.

As regards airline jobs, just forget them. The big number of experienced and type-rated pilots on the market means there are no jobs for new folk for many years. Nobody will want you, however poor the pay. There will be so many who are desperate for jobs, all of whom have plenty of experience.

When ‘eventually’ the market improves, opportunities on turbo props may well be the first jobs openings for novice *junior birdmen*.

Post 9/11, it took 18 months for the first Loganair Saab 340 FO to move to the big silver birds. And of course with over 1000+ hours on Saab, her transition to jet operations was straightforward, with increased airmanship & situational awareness. Loganair is one of the best airlines, if not the best, for a novice to start their apprenticeship.

The availability of mass vaccinations will be a critical catalyst in returning towards normality.
Prof Sarah Gilbert’s Oxford vaccine trials start today.

To paraphrase (modified) Captain Oates:

“ I am going out, and I might be sometime”

THE PHRASE “Junior Birdmen” is a generic phrase not identifying any gender, or non binary orientation.

portsharbourflyer 23rd Apr 2020 08:29

18 months seems quite quick for that era. I would say most instructors and turboprop pilots were stuck for nearly the best part of 5 years before moving on (if at all) in that post 9/11 era between 2000 to 2014 (slight recruitment peak around 2007).

However what everyone is overlooking is the return of the pay to fly schemes, Eagle-jet adverts which have disappeared during the recruitment boom have now reappeared with a resurgence on latestpilotjobs. While I disagree with pay to fly, the fact remains the low hour qualifiers which can afford to do it probably will. In the last down turn many low costs ran pay to fly schemes (Easyjet via Johnathan Kurds company, Wizzair via Storm Aviation), which invariably halted the progress of experienced turbo-prop pilots.


UAV689 28th Apr 2020 16:52

Ba to shed 12,000, with rumours this morning of 800 pilots.

ryr delayed the max til 2021

there will be no jobs for years

squidie 28th Apr 2020 20:28

Definitely no display of respect here to people both suffering job losses and those embarking on pilot training right now. Not that I’m saying peoples opinions are wrong or inconceivable but quite knee jerk at best.

Absolutely the industry is going to take one of the biggest hits in the commercial industry life line, if not the worst in the last twenty years. But quote "5/10" years of no growth must be a random guess right?! Is there anyone around that actually was ATP during both the 9/11 and 2008 crisis and knows the actual figures of recovery when it comes to time?

Modular routes have their benefits; more time to study and better control financially and that’s my opinion because that’s what I did. I didn’t do any integrated training and unlikely won’t if it comes to it.

I am still seeing youngsters embarking to this day on new integrated courses with all the risks that come with a global pandemic and heavily industrial shutdown…

My opinion; wait until later this year or next to figure how the industry has responded to the crisis. I also see very little (if any growth) in the short term but have no thoughts on it never recovering because that’s more unlikely then anything. There is yet to be more airline and job losses because we’re all still in the chip pan right now.

EDIT: IAG (BA) response today regarding their plans and outlook: "Recovery to the level of passenger demand in 2019 is expected to take several years, necessitating Group-wide restructuring measures"

https://www.londonstockexchange.com/.../14520454.html

polax52 28th Apr 2020 22:02


Originally Posted by squidie (Post 10766446)
Definitely no display of respect here to people both suffering job losses and those embarking on pilot training right now. Not that I’m saying peoples opinions are wrong or inconceivable but quite knee jerk at best.

Absolutely the industry is going to take one of the biggest hits in the commercial industry life line, if not the worst in the last twenty years. But quote "5/10" years of no growth must be a random guess right?! Is there anyone around that actually was ATP during both the 9/11 and 2008 crisis and knows the actual figures of recovery when it comes to time?

Modular routes have their benefits; more time to study and better control financially and that’s my opinion because that’s what I did. I didn’t do any integrated training and unlikely won’t if it comes to it.

I am still seeing youngsters embarking to this day on new integrated courses with all the risks that come with a global pandemic and heavily industrial shutdown…

My opinion; wait until later this year or next to figure how the industry has responded to the crisis. I also see very little (if any growth) in the short term but have no thoughts on it never recovering because that’s more unlikely then anything. There is yet to be more airline and job losses because we’re all still in the chip pan right now.

EDIT: IAG (BA) response today regarding their plans and outlook: "Recovery to the level of passenger demand in 2019 is expected to take several years, necessitating Group-wide restructuring measures"

https://www.londonstockexchange.com/.../14520454.html

I was around during the Pilot glut of the early 90's caused by a number of factors; house price crash, UK dropping out of the ERM, bankruptcy of Dan Air and Air Europe... That glut lasted about 6 years from 1990 to 1996.
Then I was also around for the aftermath of 9/11. That was a relatively short lived downturn. It was early days for the low costs and they were growing fast. I think full recovery occured by 2003.
Then I was made redundant towards the end of the financial crisis, June 2009. There was a glut of Pilots then. My colleagues started to get jobs by the end of 2010. Full recovery by 2011. However a lot of the recovery was to do with an extremely rapidly expanding China at that time.
My forecast for the current downturn depends largely on whether it's scaled up testing or a vaccine which is required to turn the tide. Assuming that it's a vaccine:
- We'll get domestic and some regional flights by Summer 2020 when lockdown finishes
- They say a Vaccine in 18 months. That would mean initiation of worldwide flights by Autumn 2021
- Peak summer 2022. I would expect worldwide flights to be back at 50% 2019 levels
- Then due to limitations on training within the industry, expansion would occur at about 20% per year.
That would have us back to 2019 levels in 2025. This could be a little quicker, maybe 2024, if testing works well.

Let me just say though, this current situation is entirely unprecedented. No look at history will decipher the outcome.

squidie 28th Apr 2020 22:36

Obviously some of your factors take into account that the economic way of life resumes to the same activities before, I.e normal business travel and social travel. That is to be the main contributing factor over time.

polax52 28th Apr 2020 22:54

In my opinion that will happen. In the immediate aftermath of the pandemic, post vaccine, you'll have an abundance of cheap aircraft, cheap crew, and cheap fuel (entrepreneurs dream). People, especially young people have not stopped wanting to travel. Cargo still needs to be moved. Business still needs to be done. This is just a reset of the industry, maybe one that needed to happen. It will take time though, we're talking about 2019 levels in 2025, that could be a little optimistic but thereabouts.

Aviator172s 28th Apr 2020 23:12

Hi everybody,

Firstly, just introducing myself cause I just registered in this forum. I am a recent PPL holder, 32 years old, and as most of us here, always dreamt of being a professional pilot.

I work in a very different field, and was just about to start ATPL theory (after a well thought and not easy decision), combining my now full time job to what it would have become a part time job, when covid suddenly exploded. By the time being, I have postponed this important step and my question is, am I now left with no future at all for achieving my goal/dream?

Many thanks in advance.

Northern Monkey 29th Apr 2020 05:00

The simple and brutal answer is probably yes.

There will be no recruitment in to airlines for the foreseeable future. Huge numbers of experienced pilots will be seeking jobs when eventually recruitment does restart. No one knows exactly how this is going to play out, and while some of the worst predictions being written on PPRuNE are likely too pessimistic, it would be fair to suggest your chances of getting a flying job as a newly qualified pilot with no experience are, in the next 5 years, close to zero.

After that, who knows? But the question you should be asking yourself is are you prepared to sit around for years and years foregoing other career opportunities in the meantime. The sensible answer to that question should be no. But I appreciate how depressing it must be to hear that. We were all once in your shoes, desperately looking for a way in to the industry. Many of us may well be again.

Good Luck.

Pearly White 29th Apr 2020 05:19


Originally Posted by flocci_non_faccio (Post 10734095)
There will be no jobs for ANY pilots, let alone cadets, for the next decade at least. It is beyond belief that people are still even considering training now.

Conservatively, there will shortly be 3-4000 unemployed pilots on the market in the UK alone once the inevitable redundancies kick in. The majority will never get a flying job ever again.

Here's a job, right now: 747-400 Captain - Freight and there's about 24 more on CAE's website - so some organisations ARE looking for pilots, I imagine all of them are box-shifters due to the huge increase in cargo volumes.

You're welcome.

skyblue12 29th Apr 2020 07:15

Right now is a tough time to find a normal job let alone a job within aviation.

My advice for anyone who is somewhere in the training pipeline or waiting to start would be to get a job in a different sector. Perhaps look at further education if you can afford it, but stay very clear of aviation for at least 18 months to 2 years. Then reassess the options. Everything is still too unknown to make any credible decisions. If a career in aviation is what you want then waiting a couple of years will make no discernible difference 20 years down the line.

felixflyer 29th Apr 2020 08:46

Sorry but you would have to be insane to be thinking of commercial pilot training now. What is coming is probably the worst downturn in commercial aviation we have ever seen. This will be a perfect storm for the airlines. 9/11 was an unwillingness to travel. 2008 was an economic crash that meant people couldn't afford to. What we will see next will be both on a bigger scale. At the moment we are seeing the effects of restrictions in travel. Next will be the recession and a drying up of money and credit.

Many businesses are being forced to resort to remote working and video conferencing where they would have previously been sending people in person. Once they have these systems in place and see the cost benefits they won't go back to paying for business class seats.
Airlines which have their main assets listed as slots at major airports like LHR see the value of these slashed as traffic decreases and these airlines will become vitually worthless.
Villas and apartments in places like Spain will be flogged off cheap or repossessed. Holiday resorts will go bust due to lack of visitors over this summer and won't survive winter to be back next year. People will be unwilling to book a holiday abroad and those that can afford a holiday will start booking domestic holidays instead by car.
Airports themselves will be going bust left right and centre and we will see the closure of some regionals.

Then we have the training industry. Now more than ever DO NOT PAY FOR ANYTHING UP FRONT!
Banks will tighten lending or stop altogether.No bank in their right mind will lend for flight training.
The parents house that would have been used as security will plummet in value and make lending against it impossible. Those that have done this over the last few years could see a move into negative equity.
Parents stock related pensions will also be heading south.
All recruitment will stop except those airlines that see the chance to run crappy pay to fly schemes to help keep themselves in business. With no credit available only those with ready funds will apply and get rinsed before being spat out the other end.
Any pilots recruited over the last few years will likely be out of work and looking. Competition for the very few jobs there are with be insane and if you have 250 hours with a fresh CPL/IR then you won't even get a reply. All airline tie-ups with the big schools will be gone apart from some cash grab pay to fly schemes aimed more at paying the schools/airlines bills than training pilots.
Instructors will be working for free or min wage to keep their hand in.

I would expect some big name flight schools to go to the wall in very short order. Any cash paid up front will vanish.

If you want to fly then best thing to do would be to get a cheap PPL from a small club only paying as you go and wait for all the cheap shares and aircraft to come up for sale. People will be desperate for you to take it off them as they cannot afford to have it even sitting on the ground let alone fly. Pick one up cheap and enjoy your flying. Just ring the destination airfield before you set off to check they haven't gone bust.

If you want to make money from aviation then take the cash you were going to use for flight training and short any business associated with commercial flying.

This all sounds very pessimistic but that is the way we are headed IMHO. I really do pity the people who are lumbered with large loans from flight training over the last few years.



Chief Willy 29th Apr 2020 10:17

I hate to say it, but if you wanted to become a pilot and are now around the age you would start training, I think you might have missed the boat. There will not be any recruiting for many many years. Mckinsey & Co predict airline travel not returning to pre-Covid levels until 2023, if at all. All airlines are looking at significant redundancies. Unlike 9/11 or 2008 there are no other growing airlines around the world for pilots to go to.

This is probably a good thing for you if you haven't started training yet, as you wont waste any money training on a career that just doesn’t have the legs to sustain a full career for your age.

After COVID is passed we’ll have another challenge to tackle, climate change. The failure of the industry to properly address the carbon issue means we are seen as the bad boys, which means less public support and a perhaps a lowering of demand over the next decade. Then for pilots in 20+ year’s time we’ll have to deal with increased autonomy of the role. Cruise relief pilots etc could be a thing of the past.

The job, whilst enjoyable at times is not what you picture it to be whilst you are a wanabee. You have to put up with a load of cr@p and the
pay and conditions are constantly going downhill. The novelty of flying a plane wears off very quickly and then it becomes more routine. You are not soaring around the sky like a bird,
more just following rules and procedures.

I’ve enjoyed the lifestyle aspects of job up until now. Being in a collapsing industry is no fun though. By all means do some flying for fun, get a PPL. But use this time to skill-up in something else completely, walk away from commercial aviation. For god’s sake do not start paying money to train as a pilot today!


Bridgestone17 29th Apr 2020 10:29

I concur whole heartedly

Aviator172s 29th Apr 2020 10:40

Thanks a lot for all your responses. Main conclusions I see is that you consider I am too old for starting a career in aviation, but I'd rather think is Covid situation what triggers this statement, since two months ago I frankly did not consider age fact as a major impediment (I know people who started older than me and reached an airliner position, not very good conditions at the beginning, but still goal/dream fulfilled)
Probably best thing to do now in mi case is keep on my current job, enjoy the PPL I recently obtained, fly for pleasure and sum hours up to the timebuilding, then revalutate in 12-18 months time when situation is clearer than now. Uncertainty is a killer, specially in aviation industry in my opinion. But honestly, I do not want to assume I have any option at all, since is my professional dream from many years, and my decided goal, including a 180º career-change, since a couple of years ago.

Best


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