L3 Harris Delays
 

Hi folks.

Looking at joining L3’s Integrated ATPL course, starting next year - however - I have hears *rumours* that there are significant delays between applying and starting ground school, and ground school to Foundation flight training.

Also, is it true that Tagged cadets on airline schemes are given priority, so all those who are not tagged, are pushed to the back of the line?

I also hear they are sending cadets to Leading Edge, at Oxford, to complete their CPL IR ?

Can any current L3 Cadets, or people in the know please inform as to the updated situation? This makes financial planning very difficult, and the unknown as to when you will start.

Thanks.

If you have visited L3, was that a question you asked of the staff and customers you met?

Due diligence? As with any establishment you intend to spent a serious amount of money ?
Read the contract carefully with particular reference to any concerns.
CAVEAT EMPTOR

Do not take a lack of response as a positive statement.

They are not rumours, I have spoken with cadets who are currently there and delays are up to 18 months!

If you cause a fuss they can make them longer. They pay 'compensation' depending how long you are delayed of £25 once you are delayed 6 months, 9 months £50 and 1 year £75 a week more or less, some have complained and some have got a 'free' type rating or one half price for those on airline schemes.

If your 'tagged' to an airline your delays will be shorter, if your not your delays will be the longest guaranteed!

The delays are likely to continue for some years to come, the smart thing to do would be to stay clear, do your PPL at your local flying club then head over to Europe for CPL etc and get it done in a few months at 33% of the cost!

Or if your certain you want a big player like that, CAE seems to be more reputable and I have not heard anything about delays and are a similar price.

Whilst this quote might well be a ‘tongue in cheek’ remark, it is important that the message is heard loud and clear.
As training is expensive, you the customer need to get it right for you first time. It is not a dress rehearsal.

Unfortunately Pprune is full of tails of woe where the unwary have been ripped off.
Going back in time in the UK: TRENT, CABAIR (mark 2), to name but two who conducted professional training which ceased abruptly. This list is not exhaustive.

So I make no apology for reinforcing the fundamental message that you must spend your hard earned money wisely. If it looks too good to be true, then probably it is.
Basic fraud advice is mentioned generally in the media.
Listen to MONEYBOX on radio 4 to learn just what can happen to victims.

If it keeps junior birdmen alert and safer, prevents the gullible and vulnerable from making poor choices then it is clearly worthwhile?

Not sure on the current delays between applying and ground school but being delayed at that stage is probably the most convenient as you can keep your job etc. and work until it starts. As a white tail you're almost definitely going to be delayed at least 2 months between ground school and basic flying stage. There are some courses that have been delayed as much as 6 months between ground school and flying. I'm not too sure about delays between basic and advanced flying stage, it seems as though these have been kept relatively minimal - probably as you're correct that they are sending some of their cadet to Leading Edge for parts of training.
When it comes to being booked in for flights the priority are the airline funded cadets (Royal Brunei, Hong Kong Airlines, Cathay, Oman Air, Air France), followed by tagged cadets (easyJet, BA, Wizzair) and then white tail cadets, this combined with weather (especially in New Zealand and the UK) means that at times as a white tail you're only going to fly once a week or once every two weeks.

Delays between stages have been 11 months for one of the cadets I spoke to. I think its cheaper and better to take hold of your training yourself rather than join a waiting list. I think only do an integrated course if your on a scheme.

So you are partly right, but your figures are wrong. We get £35 per week for up to 12 weeks, £65 per week for between 13 and 20 weeks, and £105 per week above 21 weeks. Additionally, we get £5,000 at the end of training for delays of up to 30 weeks, £10,000 for up to 40 weeks, and free type rating of our choice for above. I've personally not heard of anyone of 18months, longest i've heard of is 12months which is why they brought in the type rating package. Delays have reduced massively with the opening of new centres and some outsourcing, with most people seeing around 4-5 months. Also, saying that if you make a fuss they will delay you more is wrong as that would cost L3 more money.

I'd do some very quick research if i were you on here. Its not hard to find information about CAE also having issues such as massive delays between offer and starting because they no longer have capacity in ground school. There is a thread on here about 40 easyjet ATPL's who were dropped because of it, and i'm also aware of 120+ Indigo airline cadets who had to be outsourced from CAE for both ground school and flight instruction this year alone.

Unfortunately, the flight training industry is facing a massive issue on 2 fronts. The first is a reduction in the number of available instructors due to many reaching the retirement age, many going to join airlines and new cadets going straight to airlines and not building hours as instructors. The second is the massive increase in the number of people wanting to be pilots.

Delays are not an L3 issue only. There are delays across the industry at the big flight schools. The big advantage that the likes of L3/CAE give you are employment. Yes, it is a goodish market at the moment and i know there are those who are "anti-integrated" and will say you have no problem getting a job once qualified. However, integrated whitetail students at L3 are getting offers of employment before they have even finished the course. I've seen offers to students from BA, Air France, Easyjet, Flybe, Sun Express, Royal Brunei and Air Astana around 3/4 months from the end of training, so students are walking into jobs just weeks after graduation.

Hello
Is this still the case even with airlines like Thomas Cook collapsing?
Surely this means airlines are more likely to go to the more experienced pilots rather than fresh cadets?

Whilst this is true, there are other aspects to consider. I would not be surprised to discover that CTC was bought by L3 not for its flying training business but for the type rating business. The flying training side looks like a huge company to us mortals down at the bottom of the food chain but to L3 Harris it is quite likely it's just a 'thing they acquired' along with the sims which if it is profitable will just be allowed to carry on, hardly noticed by the main board. Were it to make significant losses, however, the eye of Sauron might fall upon it and a decision may be taken to dispose of it. Is an MBO on the cards?

I was offered start dates pretty quickly after passing selection, but that was over a year ago so maybe it's changed now. I also found that ground school ran very well and stayed on schedule. It's at the end of ground school when the delays start to creep in both before and during the basic flying phase i.e. up to a few flights before the CPL test.

The delays are variable. My basic flying phase started a bit late and took a few months longer than it should have, however there are other cadets who've had it WAY worse than me. It is likely that there's some desire to give airline cadets special treatment, but I'm whitetail and personally I've found myself scheduled to fly pretty frequently compared to cadets on airline schemes. A lot of it is also down to the weather especially at this time of year. My best guess at my finish date is about 6 months behind schedule, which is an extra 6 months of living allowance from my parents that I'm going to have to pay back at some point.

It is true that cadets are being sent to Leading Edge for IR as well as to AFTA in Ireland, plus Etihad Aviation Training in the UAE for the pre-CPL phase. They claim that rigorous auditing and standardisation ensures that these providers are up to L3's high standards, and I'm sure they are. It does make you wonder though how they can claim to provide world-leading training and charge a premium for it but then effectively admit that the training is just as good at another provider.

I think the majority of instructors were around back in the CTC days and the standards of training are excellent. I believe the problems started when L3 took over and began parachuting people into management positions when they didn't have proper experience of the industry. They also suffered a squeeze in capacity when Phoenix closed down and, I guess wanting to keep the money coming in, were too slow to react and reduce their intake of cadets.

In terms of my general experience, I honestly have no doubt in my mind that L3 are the most incompetent company I have ever had to deal with. At all levels on the admin/management side I find the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing, and major issues are dealt with reactively while those of us at the bottom are left thinking "how on earth did you not know about this before?" I know of a few cadets who decided to move to other providers, and I seriously considered it myself when I wasn't so far along with the training. I strongly suggest you consider saving a chunk of money and frustration by looking at a different provider.

Hi CAV !

I must post here since my private message quota of ONE was occupied... Feel free to answer via private message if you are not comfortable with writing publicly.

I have passed L3's tests a few weeks ago and will start my training soon. Now I am aware of the issues you pointed out in your post, and I am aware that I'd better get prepared for some delay. I also have some faith, albeit limited, in what issues the new payment instalement may be able to address, with L3 having a quite substantial cash flow coming in in the next few months.
Now for informational purposes, would you mind disclosing your flight training location? I know the issues are not evenly distribuited and some flight training centers tend to be better structured than others.
Thank you for the clarity you brought to the forum, especially for those who don't have any acquaintances within L3.

Most importantly, enjoy the flying !

Hmmmm, with those kind of delays and the money involved I would not accept delays of any kind. Who is the cutomer here?

Wiith such courses, you get no paperwork at all until you finish the course.

"L3 having a quite substantial cash flow coming in in the next few months". Did they tell you that? Playing the devil's advocate, how does restructuring the stage payment scheme to benefit the customer (which is what I assume you are saying) provide better cash flow for the company? It does the opposite. And how also does laying off your training committments to other ATOs do anything other than reduce your profit while simultaneously enabling your competitors?

They undeniably have issues at some training locations.
Namely, some being hard to provide with skilled FIs because they are in a remote location, others facing low A/C availability. You also have to factor in that they now have two fleets: one being Diamond and the other being the firsts out of 240 Pipers slowly joining in.
Now, I personally think these issues could be (temporarily!) solved with money. And let's just hope management will pull off a long term viable strategy for every aspect of their business, among which type rating and flight training. In the meantime, it indeed puts them in the precarious situation you just described.

About the cash flow, I have regularly checked their website for the past 2 years (alongside other ATOs) and over the course of this summer, the payment installment was revised. Previously it was 5000 upon signature, 5700 one month before start date, and 5300 each month from the 5th month onwards. And a large payment right before flight training. Now, it is 9000 upon signature and a steady 5000 per month until the 16th month.
In my understanding, they will get a substantially larger cash flow for the next 6 months or so.

Ah I understand, they have changed the payment schedule to benefit themselves. Time for me to add to Parkfell's "caveat emptor". Restructuring to get more payment in early, inexplicably laying off revenue to competitors, interesting accounting practices.... president of L3 CTS moved sideways .... the last of the old CTC managers gone.....there is some sort of change coming.

Bego,

Good luck to you, you are going to need it.

standing by to stand by for the WHITE SMOKE........

As a student pilot I would stay clear of any UK Aviation Commercial Schools whether integrated or modular, I should know as I worked at one for 2 years while I did my licence (it was run by complete criminals, just sucking money out of people) who wanted to do their commercial pilots licence and they knew very well as soon as your in for 5k your in for the full amount and you are game for whatever they want to do and they can extract more money out of you and you wont complain. Bit like some airlines as well btw.....

People think the UK is the best for many things, employment rights etc are miles behind many other countries in the UK. I think particularly in aviation the standard is very poor in commerical schools, German and Dutch schools dont pull the kind of stuff you read out about here.

Lots of really nice flying clubs in the UK where you should do your PPL, hour building and take your friends and family up ands how them your flying skills and make it a nice day out. Then get yourself on a fixed price all in course somewhere in Europe where you can crack on with it without any distractions.

In 99% of cases you will save time and money, I wish I had done it!

Absolutely agreed. Greed is the only motivation in any integrated school it seems. People don't realise this fact and as you've well explained are put in a situation of weakness where they've already coughed huge amounts of money in advance. Always wondered why CAA or EASA don't even have a word to say. Oh sure, it is completely "legal"...

I would rather not reveal my training location, however it is correct that the delays are not evenly distributed, with Bournemouth in general being the worst. A year or so ago, with Bournemouth already running over capacity, they took on a contract from the RAF to provide basic training there. Of course this brings in more money for the company, but in my mind doing this was inexcusable given the fact that L3 cadets i.e. their customers are paying nearly £100k and were already facing delays before the company decided to squeeze its capacity still further. It just goes to show what the priorities really are.

Others here are right to point out the problems with integrated providers, and with hindsight I probably should have done what Gonewiththewallet suggested above. You pay a bunch of money but have nothing to show for it i.e. no flying qualification until the end of the course (no PPL along the way like with modular). This effectively means that you're stuck in their pocket until you get the fATPL at the end, however long that takes. A few people I know did jump ship but that's a lot of upheaval.

The delay payments we get are welcome but nothing like what I'd be earning in a job if I'd finished on time. Other than that we just get hollow corporate apologies and promises that they are working to reduce the delays, meanwhile day to day nothing changes and they hide behind the 'subject to change' clause safe in the knowledge that we're all on the hook for £100k.

2nd hand info but a lot of people I've talked to have had numerous delays during training, regularly up to 6 months total during the course of waiting. L3 are trying to reduce delays, but still taking large intakes of new cadets regularly when the training pipeline is bursting.

I'd say if you can get in on a scheme tagged to an airline, go for it. If not, CAE might be a better option.

Cash flow isn't an issue for L3, it's a gigantic company with deep pockets and they are investing heavily since taking over CTC, ramping up training all over the place.

It was actually the flight school side of CTC that L3 wanted. They had sim centres all over the place, but wanted to be able to offer everything from first flight all the way to airline level. Let's hope things eventually settle.

May I disagree. When L3 acquired CTC they didn't operate any civil sim centres

I have a friend in CAE who's in Phoenix and he has a 6 month delay on flying, hes flown 5 times since September when he started, He said his buddy in L3 has the same delay also. As a result, my friend is thinking of dropping out and doing a modular at Jerez, or somewhere in the UK. Having passed the stage 3 my self not long ago.

Personally, I don't think It would be viable to stay an extra 6 months because of the living costs an all (my parents are remortgaging the house, so I don't come from a particularly wealthy background but the support is really there) so I'm going to do my medical and do the fast track modular course at Aeros in Gloucester airport. It's £75k (a bit cheaper) you get the same licence and you get virtually the same support with airline interviews. Those who graduate get jobs within a year at various companies, BA, Ryanair, EasyJet and FlyBe just to name a few. Plus the living coats in Cheltenham/Gloucester are quite reasonable (in terms of a house share).

TL;DR- Yes there's a six month delay. It put me off so i'm doing modular instead.

EIGHTEEN MONTHS? WTF

18 months is the worst I have heard but upto a year is not uncommon.

Modular is good as you can take control of it yourself, though the general consensus would be to stay away from Aeros, they have a bad repuation for fleecing students once you are signed up and paid deposits.

I can guarantee that you wont get it for anywhere near 75k! That's the hook price, do your PPL in the UK, get your exams and get a fixed priced school in Europe, safe your time and money for when applying for jobs and need some sim practice etc.

Brave New World once the C-19 is under control either by vaccine or other mitigating techniques, and the offers which will be made to entice newcomers to the party in the next 12 months.
DUE DILIGENCE & CAVEAT EMPTOR must be at the forefront of any prospective customer.

Just how FORCE MAJEURE clauses will operate for those already training might prove interesting. Delays will eventually evaporate and a semi arid desert will occur.

Quite frankly, anyone signing the dotted line now blindly planning to start flying training in the next two months or so on an intergrated course isn't fit to be flying an aircraft, this should be one of the easiest decisions to make with the information available.
There are enough poor souls within the training system currently who are facing eye-watering delays and increased living costs, L3 did not repatriate many of it's cadets despite UK Government advice as it was too expensive for the school to do so, add on top of that some EasyJet MPL graduates amongst others going through the type rating are having their training cancelled and contracts terminated shows the wheels are coming off the system properly, as for whitetails or new graduates, you have my upmost sympathy, but use this time to get an idea of a second career to at least see out what will be a prolonged period.

Hold on folks, it will end and improve, but there's going to be a lot of suffering first.

Is there any news when L3 will resume training?

Spanish lockdown is being eased from Monday 25 May with flying schools slowly and carefully starting back.

There have been several posts on facebook from L3 students on courses in Portugal who have had their training contracts 'cancelled' by L3 since the COVID-19 crisis started. I don't know under what terms or how much money was retained or refunded.

I'm curious about the force majeure clause in said contracts. What level of protection does it provide for either party under these circumstances? A pandemic resulting in a global lockdown is definitely a bona fide cause of force majeure.

I have never seen a CTC or L3 contract. Is there some sort of NDA in place?

I think that the cat may well & truly be out of the bag (given social media reports) with dissatisfied customers due to L3’s inability to provide training in a timely manner, as anticipated in the contract.
NDAs ability to conceal the dissatisfaction is now ineffective. The dam has burst.

These contracts are invariably heavy weighted in favour of ATOs and provided the experience stays positive, remains on track, everyone is happy.
However, when a number of FIs simply jumped ship to fly the big silver birds etc, then of course problems arise.
Depending on the level of dissatisfaction, M’learned friends may well be earning a crust.

The paradox is that given the tsunami, there will be numerous ex FIs, (now/about to be unfortunately made redundant from airlines) who would be more than happy to be re-employed at an ATO.

A new era dawns post lockdown.
Those ATOs who take a more holistic approach and treat those unfortunate trainees caught up in the tsunami well, similar to a doctor/patient relationship, (as oppose to a hard nosed commercial contract) will invariably become stronger and survive by doing it right. Social media can be very persuasive.

Irrelevant if the contract is void anyway as what does the student have to lose. No large company is going to sue a 19 year old for making come comments on Facebook.

parkfell

Take if you’ve never dealt with CTC/L3 then?

Whatever happens it will be done in a way that ensures they can screw the absolute maximum amount of money out of the student/instructor for the minimum investment.

I expect them to have their glossy mags up and running again in no time, and given that if Daddy is paying it doesn’t really matter, they will probably fill their courses up quite happily.

Social media really doesn’t matter. They’ve treated their students like absolute dirt for years (ask me how I know...) but people don’t want to read things that go against their dream, and will continue to gladly part with their cash.

I suspect that “Daddy” will have woken up and smelt the coffee, as they say...?

The amount of denial and fear amongst students in sausage factories is quite astounding if you come from other backgrounds... It's all about selling the dream.

Why?? If you’re loaded and little Jimmy wants to be a pilot you’re still going to fund it, it’s not like they all got jobs anyway. For a lot, the money is so irrelevant that it’s just another thing that Jimmy wants to try out and hopefully may finally get an actual job out of it.

The ones to suffer will be those who were put through by the airlines or in some way sponsored, that’ll dry up completely which is a real shame.

For our 20 year old without the brains to get into uni or the drive to have any real career prospects, but has loaded parents... They’ll be absolutely fine.