AFTA, Simtech, VA or any other school for APS MCC
 

Buon giorno
My last forum was closed and I even don't know why.
So I start a new one with a similar title but without that S.. name because they or people from them react weird.
I would like to give guidance and hints to those who want to do a APS MCC.
So in the game you have the schools in the title.
Would be good to have details for their APS programs
Thank you

And the recommendation is...
 

So what do you think? Is VA better than Simtech? I've read your last thread and highly appreciate some further info.
My friends recommend VA, but simtech looks professional and on their Facebook there is evidence for the success of their pilots.
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APS costs
 

Wings alliance is offering the APS for 7500 GBP
I paid around 6400 Euro
VA is taking 6900 GBP
Pilots ATO takes 5500 Euro
What about Simtech and AFTA?

Tried contacting VA but they never followed up unfortunately. I guess they are just too busy?

Hello
 

Do you know Spanish flight schools with aps?

Hi VA.
What's your price for the APS MCC? Just curious

@travis.karl: On their website its written: £6,900 inc VAT (£5,750 ex VAT) so its 6.900 or 5.750 if you have a company related to flying. I believe it can also be deducted if you are not from UK just have an EU company and also written off from tax as a cost of getting the necessary ratings to perform your job.

@virtualaviation: May I ask if there is some kind of assessment or can I just join when I am done with my ratings at the flight school? I like your program best when looking at website information but I would like to ask if you have some contacts with Ryanair or planning to be officially approved like sky4u or AFTA ? Do you have any contact or students who got a job with other airlines for example: Wizz Air, LOT Polish Airlines, Enter Air, Sprint Air, Travel Service (those airlines got bases in Poland, maybe Easyjet will also have bases in Poland) ?

​​​​​​I wrote down the price above. But it's good to provide once more. Does anybody have the price for Simtech?

Thank you. I was blind. It seems that RYR will have more partners soon. And maybe they kick out another present partner. Who knows.
​​​​​​APS students from Simtech and VA are taken by RYR too. So it's simply that they prefer APS students.
But still it's a lot of money that you need to pay for something that is normally not needed and covered by an airline. Too expensive. And no guarantee.

I am sorry I strongly disagree with these overpriced programs. They will not prepare you for an airline assessment for various reasons:
1. You don't know what type you will be checked on. (A320, 737, Embraer or other)

2. The date you do such a course can be months or even years before you get a real chance, unless practiced regularly it will give you little help by the time you finally have an assessment.

3. As a Cadet they will not be assessing you for failures etc. If you are non type rated they will check your general flying / handling skills. The HR interview will in 90% of the cases by equally as important as the sim.

4. MCC is the regulatory requirement, get the one that is "cheapest" possible, save your money until you know you have an interview / assessment. Then book Sim with instructor, same type as assessment. Most sim profiles for assessment for companies like RyR, Wizz, Ezy, BA and more, are available, and you book one or more Sim sessions shortly before your assessment date, and practice exactly what you will be expected to perform in your assessment.

5. No airline will give if you have some Certificate from either of these places, equally from places like Oxford etc., you doing a MCC course spending a few thousands, while they have integrated cadets spending over 100.000 Euros, will not count for the same from the FTO if they do have a connection with airlines.

EASA requires you have a MCC only, some airlines asks for a JOC, again if you do have to do it, do it as cheap as possible, as this has very little value when applying for a job, besides that you have to have it on your CV.

Rather spend 1000 - 1500 Euro on a Sim when you have an assessment, save your money until then.

Regarding quality I agree with you. But regarding necessity I agree with 2unlimited.
The APS is completely unnecessary. Rather spend your money with a good MCC on a FFS. And you still pay less than for an APS.
For a standard MCC which one from UK/Ireland so you recommend?
In Germany Cockpit4u, TFC Kaeufer and RWL are the biggest schools with the highest standards.
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I was at RWL for my std. MCC. Now I'm flying in Asia with base HK. It worked out then, why shouldn't it now?

1. Handling between 737 and A320 are completely different. Example one has a stick, other a yoke, one you need to trim, the other has auto trim.
If you done one or the other, it will only confuse you to criss cross between the two.
Boeing is a cluttered piece of junk from the 60's, while Airbus slightly newer flying computer.

2. The market is not that buoyant for inexperienced cadets, there is a high failure rate, as there are so many cadets to choose from. Whenever companies like RyR opens up recruitment, they normally have several thousand applications, of those they will only hire 20 - 30 at a time.
Now also loads of experienced pilots looking for jobs after Monarch, WoW, Air Berlin and other companies gone bust. Many companies are now taking these experienced guys first, as it helps them ease up on their training department.

3. Sure basic skills of CRM you get during your MCC, basic skills is what is needed. They don't expect that you are a complete pilot when you join as a cadet, because they want to teach you from scratch, to make sure you don't have any bad habits that you might have picked up during your initial training.
Most airlines now want you shaped into their ethos of how to operate. Their SOP's and their way of thinking.
Getting smoke etc. are very complex drills, and if given during an assessment for a Cadet, then this I fell is grossly unfair and wrong, and has nothing to do in an assessment of non TR cadet. Unless he has experience on other type I would not expect to see this given.

Without a good HR interview, you won't even get the time in the Sim by the company.

4. With good preparation and 1 or 2 Sim sessions in a FFS on same type as will be used for assessment, you should be more then enough ready, any competent trainer that knows the Sim drills that are used, can get this done nicely over a 4 hours sim session, with brief and debrief. Of course some self study in advance is required. To prepare yourself for the profiles required.

5. My point with the integrated courses is that many of them already have agreements with airlines, and the Cadets from this group will always have priority with regards to job placement ahead of anyone doing some advanced MCC/JOC course.

As I mention, anyone can get interview with Ryanair, even without these packages, of course if you do get interview/sim, you should prepare properly, that's when you need you Sim time.

uncle dickie;

Thank you for the input. I'm looking for a school to do my MCC or APS but haven't decided yet. Reading some reports here and there are a lot of pros and cons for each. My budget limits me but I want to invest in the best way. Because you find more A320 in Europe I think it will be on that one. I'm not looking for Ryan more for easy or Brussels. What do you think? And they only require a standard MCC.

The best schools for APS are mentioned here. I understand your concerns regarding the type. It was the same for me. If budget limits you go ahead and post it here. I'm sure you'll find a solution. I heard recently that VA is doing a real good job. For A320 you may ask somebody from Lufthansa or CAE.

Just found an offer for A320 based APS MCC in Hungary. Cost is 5499 Euro. School is Pilots ATO in Budapest. Could be interesting for you.

CRM Europe's CEO wrote a meaningful post
 

Just check their website. Can't post a link cuz I'm new here. Words to think about...

Rob Howard's comment on APS
 

Hey there.
Usually I'm not doing this but have a look at this comment. It's about important facts to consider before you take an APS MCC.
https://www.pprune.org/professional-...l#post10490456
Or visit CRM Europe's news section.

Merci beaucoup!
I will contact Pilots ATO. AFTA not replying. Maybe too many mail request. Decided against Sky4u although some friends recommended. Now some of my friends say if they knew before would go to another flight school.
Thanks here for your support.

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Dear robingre991,
please checkout some standard MCC providers too. TFC, RWL and Cockpit4u are good flight schools with a high number of school leavers finding a job in a relatively short time frame. All without an APS.

Spanish flight school
 

Result of my research is that we don't have any Spanish FS offering APS
But gossip is that it's in the planning. I think it will be with one major like FTE. Can't wait so long. I will visit VA and Simtech first. Then maybe Cockpit4u if I get a cheap ticket

While the APS was hyped for several months it became clear by now that it didn't get the attention and the big numbers some schools hoped for. Standard MCC numbers at most traditional flight schools are steady and somewhat constant. That's what I heard. I'm happy that most students didn't run into this trap.
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That is good to hear, as it's no doubt another "FTO scheme" to try to squeeze much extra thousands of EUROS out of students.
Having been in the position within the last 10 years looking for my first job, I can fully understand the frustration some feel when they have spent a small fortune completing their CPL/IR.

Equally I would advice someone who is in their mid / late 20's or early/mid 30's, that getting stuck into an airline straight away, might seem great at first, but specially in the LCC industry, many face burnout within 10 - 15 years, some even faster, and only option to continue working is going part time.

In the mind of someone applying for their first job, just desperate to fly, this might sound crazy as all they wish at this moment of time is to fly as much as possible, this notion will eventually change with most guys after they have been "abused" enough.

I am not wanting to deter people from a flying career, just telling it how it is. So enjoy flying when you can, chances with airlines does come for most sooner or later. It took me about 18 months from completing my training to get my first job. Some guys even faster, the frustration is great during that initial search, but it's easy to think another extra "Sim course" is going to make it easier, or solve the problem to get the job.

I will repeat what I have said before, save your money, use it wisely, when you get the interview with a specific airline, that's when it's time to splash the cash on sim session, to prepare for that specific airline.

Update for RYR candidates
 

Many new cadets invited and passed RYR with MCC only, most of them no APS students. On other hand many APS students failed. That's what I heard from inside.

And whats the source for your stats?

I know before APS MCC the pass rate of MCC holders was 100%.

Good afternoon all,
We can confirm what MaverickPrime said about assessment stats.
This information is also available on our career page.
Our statistics show that over 50% of newly qualified pilots who hold a CPL, frozen ATPL theoretical exams, ME/IR and a standard MCC fail at the initial assessment.
Thank you

I see Skyborne Airline Academy are offering APS MCC on their new B737 Max simulator at their base at Gloucestershire airport

Yeah, but there are more standard MCC pilots than APS MCC pilots. 50% of let's say 5000 is still 2500. Whereas 25% of 10 is 2,5, leaving 7,5 to pass. You don't tell these facts. It worked all the years with a simple MCC and some screening prep. Altogether for less money than 6,5k or more

VA and RYR
 

VA is high quality. I have many coworkers that have completed their training at VA. But I still don't get the point why APS is that much advertised
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@parkfell: Did VA become Ryanair officaly approved APS MCC provider like AFTA and Sky4U ? That would be perfect since their offer for APS MCC looked most interesting.

I checked on their website it looks like a new program appeared like 2 days ago and its a Ryanair approved program, ofc. there is an extra assessment included to prepare for as bonus to the regular Ryanair assessment (that should be everything). Wonder if they made it relevant to flying like the later real assessment or if they created some DLR like stuff that does require a lot of lengthy preparation but is of no use in real flying. Hopefully they made it relevant to flying and someone will give some feedback about it before its my turn to apply.