Judging by the state of some of the scruffy looking folk one sees at airports these days in pilot's uniforms, sartorial standards do not feature very highly in some airlines.....

But is it really too much to expect a trainee to look reasonably smart during training? Or do some think that slouching around looking scruffier than many a bus driver is adequate?

'Bulled' shoes are an irrelevance; being an ambassador for your airline certainly isn't!

Actually now there's a thought. I know large numbers of people looking for work with the pressure of big debts... If I can be the middle man supplying them with a basic Plumbers course... I could have a fleet of franchise plumbers... gasp!

WWW

My Dad was a plumber (and gas fitter).

He made a lot more money in his line of work than I'm making in mine.

I guess it is partly because (like for undertakers) there is always a constant supply of work, no matter what the world economic or security cimate is.

Hey do you know how much emergency plumbers charge in London? £75 ph plus parts plus VAT, more outside office hours.

Plus you get to drive a white van!

Maybe it's not as crazy a suggestion as you think.....;) ;)

Marketing may be customer oriented; they accept the applicant's money in exchange for insincere promises of success and employment opportunities. The instructor is the individual tasked with helping the hapless wannabe achieve this success. Yes of course, if they could achieve this by approaching the wannabe as a customer first, student second then great. But lamentably some of the wannabe pilots are unlikely to make the grade, either from a competency point of view or character view point. Being customer focused rather than studnet led is, in this case, perhaps not going to do the wannabe any favours.

However I think as instructors we need to remember always that every student is a customer, and hard as it might be, do everything we can to help them achieve their aim, even when they don't. But that's what professionalism is all about. Right?

Talking of plumbers, I'll spare you the details, but I had cause to run a credit check on a gentleman who's trade was 'plumber'. His declared earnings where fractionally short of 60K. I dread to think what they would be including the undeclared amounts...

S

:cool: Smartcol (little timmy), I don't understand. I thought with a shiny new JAA EUROPEAN LICENCE, you would be able to work anywhere on the continent (if you speaka da lingo!) and OF COURSE it is a SUPERIOR licence. Will C U on the latin america forum advertising your services no doubt!:p :p

pull your seat closer to the desk welshman and keep pressing the buttons, after all your the one with your feet firmly on the ground..... you,ll see me waving from 35,000ft

smarcol - I do not know what you know of me. I do not understand your last post.

Wave from 35,000ft is you want.

I will wave back.

WWW

smartcol,

You shouldn't let people provoke you into responding on these boards. Your first post was very reasonable, and as you found out, people are not always reasonable in return. Such is life on a bulletin board.

I guess you are still a young lad/lass. You have now joined the real world, the 'school of hard knocks', 'university of life', 'lifes a b1tchh and then you die' are all phrases you will hear bandied around. It's a pity, but nobody does owe you anything, and you have come across more mature people who have probably found that out themselves, but now think they are hot shots, and have forgotten about it. Coming out of pilot school with your hard earned qualifications, into a slowdown, you are no different from any other lad coming out of university who are now not getting the job they thought they would when they started. Don't worry, things will pick up, and before too long you will have the job you dream of. Ignore the people here who will knock you down, that's also just part of life. You persevere, be flexible, believe in yourself and you will do fine.

Another phrase you might hear out there in the 'real world' - "Don't let the b@stards get you down" - keep that in mind too!

Best of luck.

I don't quite know where this thread has gone. I thought the idea was "Can I please have some constructive advice now that I have finished my license but the jobs have dried up?". Now despite the first post on the site regarding what is/ and is not allowed in this forum, we have a slanging match moving between whether or not students are customers or poor sods to be given a hard time by professional FI's with approximately 150 more hours than the student, and the merits of plumbing for a career.

I have been a professional pilot for 20 years, my post of last week referred to combing the countryside and indeed the continents in search of the few jobs that there are, did not seem to make a dent in this discussion. I still believe that now is the time whilst things are down to keep gaining hours and experience. Some of the more positive posts prove my point and it does appear that there is work out there, if you move many stones and search everywhere.

The comments re the OATS fellas who turned down a GA job whilst waiting for the call from the airlines is possibly an underlying attitude in the recently graduated pilot community. Guys it just doesn't always work that way.

Doing an instructors course in a climate where there are minimal FI jobs available still achieves more hours in the logbook,which makes you more attractive to the few positions that are available. That extra time makes you more appealing to the 'work for free' areas such as towing gliders or dropping parachutists. It similarly is a feather in the cap for future employment opportunities that may come up later on.

The FI skill also gives you another credit when looking for O/S opportunities. There seem to be many opportunities in the US if you check out some of the US forums, particularly for QFI's with some reasonable incentive schemes.

So guys hang off the slanging, be professional and see if you can suggest ways in which to keep moving whilst the area we chose to work is running slowly.

And so to invite criticism I find it incredible to believe the way students in general are treated by the Uk training system. Flying is supposed to be fun. Parting with thousands of pounds never is. Hence when the flying is not fun and the cash is going down, where is the future of the training industry? Instructors are not marketers, but there seems to be a CRM issue here which may be being missed also. Wearing the clothes doesn't necessarily make you a good pole man or a future aviation professional. It takes a bit more. If the fun is not there in Aviation training why bother? The industry is painful enough when you are in it.

B412, yeah, you're right, this does seem to have gone off the point a little. As Smartcol is still checking replies, its good to see a little common sense and a few words of sound advice.

However, the space aportioned to the debate of "customer or student" is worth getting into.

It has always seemed to me that the "usual route" for a budding ATPL is to do an FI course and get a few hours under their belt. WWWs comments on that are one insight to life as an instructor, which most professional pilots seem to do for a while, so I think even from Smartcols point of view it has to be a useful discussion.

Its also a good back up plan. One of my colleagues did the whole BA sponsered Oxford thing only to get dumped after a line check. The FI route was then available as a good back up plan. Having let his shoes get a bit scruffy and really getting into stick and rudder flying, he is enjoying it now. Its not just marking time to the next airline call. (Although more money would be a bonus, I suppose),

The perception of the customer by instructors as well as their attitude to business owners is cause for some concern. Whilst I believe that the student gets nothing out of being constantly congratulated, the relationship between instructor and Owner is not always pretty, in fact sometimes its taken as read to be a bad one. This was my initial query with WWW. My concern is that the wider the "us and them" attitude gets, the further away we get from everyone involved in training making a decent living. FTO's and the industry are too small to afford give birth to the next Arther Scargill.

The marketing Demons are just as bad in some cases. I've never lost a customer by telling them the truth about the industry they want to get into. In fact, from a marketing point of view, its known as a fresh approach and the guy who has something different to offer always gets a good slice of the cake. Maybe we should all sing from the same hymn book.

Most instructors I know would say "Yeah, I am a career instructor, I love it, but I have to go to the airlines to pay back £35,000 of debt".

At the end of the day, Smartcol, getting paid anything to fly is better than paying for your flying when you're not humping parcels from one side of a warehouse or another, or flipping burgers for £4.20 per hour.

My Brother is a plumber. I never recall him at age seven saying "When I grow up, I want to fix blocked toilets" whilst staring dreamily up at the fluffy white things.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, it's a hard old road that.
Been there, actually there again.
You just have to make your own luck.

A suggestion for those who always advocate a uni degree as a fall back. Think about getting some aircraft mechanic (LAME) qualifications. New engineers are as scarce as hen's teeth. An engineer is rarely out of work, in the industry and can transport his/her skills to other countries.

Well looking back through the posts it seemes to me smartcol you would have been better posting in "Questions" for a more senior understanding of the situation. Anyway just to clear my thoughts flypuppy just why you decided to whinge to me about your situation I will never know, I think you took my comments up wrong but what can u do.
As with posters from all various types of situations and experiences we will always get mixed opinion's, its up to the individual to sift throught the crap. However I do like a heated discussion and at times do try and provoke one "I confess" but sure it shows for a good luck at peoples attitudes which can only stand to benefit you when you have dealings with these feckers face to face.
Anyway I thouroughly enjoyed this thread, thanks muppets for the entertainment :D , and WWW jeez your a dark horse but none then less I appreciate your reality punches.
Now for christ sake please don't slag me off I am fragile cargo.:p

Am in similair position to flypuppy. Decided to stop after GFT having passed ground exams and will pick up on the IR later. Am considering the instructer route for ad hoc part time work.
Have the additional disadantages of mortgage(large), school fees and wife who has not worked for nine months who used to earn more than me when working full time.
But bit by bit I will get there (though dont know where)
Like flying too much to stop

the story of smartcol is a warning for other wannabes. the JAR frozen ATPL is just a scam with no job in sight at end of training.
this kind of money would be better spent as a share in an airplane, in Vegas or whatever

It's been a long time since I looked in on Wannabees and now I wish I hadn't bothered.

I didn't read smartcols original post as a 'world owes me a living' type of thing. More a 'I'm having a bad day' one. We all had them at that stage in our careers and I'm sure most of still do from time to time. Why some people felt the need to attack smartcol so viciously I don't understand.

Most disappointing of all was WWW's response. How easy to be smug from ones ivory tower. I would have expected better from a moderator. If you want to act in this way I would suggest you do the obvious, set up another username and go from there.

As for condoning working for nothing......that's low.

If you had an ounce of decency in you WWW you'd apologise.

Jeez, this place is going downhill.

<Not edited for spelling>

:cool: Smartcol, "Biiiiiiiig Mac and fries please !!!";)

Flintstone, you are entitled to your opinion as am I. I am not being smug - I would have posted that post if I were still working as a FI instead of an FO.

I am wearing my FI hat on this thread.

WWW

Then take the hat off mate, it doesn't seem to fit.