Importance of first time Pass ATPL Exams
 

Hi All
I have recently started my ATPL Distance Learning and have to admit
as I am slightly older I am finding the volume of stuff you need to
remember is overwhelming :eek:
Just wondered how important first time passes are as I realise I might
not pass them all first time !
Has anyone got a job having had to retake some exams ? Do airlines
take a interest in first time passes ?
Also anyone got any pointers on how to get through it all as I
sometimes find I am only remembering about half the material and
getting about 50 % in some progress tests :ok:

There will be a load of folk tell you that they care.

There will be a load of folk that will tell you that they don't even ask about it.

Personally I have never been asked about mine and I have never asked anyone about there's.

And to be honest with the kids today it really doesn't show anything to do with knowledge retained. They hammer the question banks with very little grasp of the core material. You get folk putting 98-99% on there CV's as averages that haven't a clue when you ask them even stuff from the PPL syllabus.

Importance of first time Pass ATPL Exams
 

Very true Mad Jock! Very true!!

completely agree with madjock.

I think the trick is to understand the subject and get a 90%+ average - it can be done, just takes hard work, and a lot of hard work.

Remember youtube is your friend ..

Also, the question banks are becoming less useful, as the CAA are rewriting a lot of questions, especially the ones where you need the scariest bit of kit in flying - a calculator! LOL

Personally I was a lot more conscious of the cost of having to re-sit any of the exams!

I found the brush-ups really helped me slot things into place, I suppose thats down to how each individual learns best though.

I agree, these exams have very little relevance to actual airline flying, yes some of the stuff is important, but stuff like what wind blows over the northeastern part of africa in summer etc etc etc is just useless. Airlaw, Human Factors are good. My italian students barely spoke english when they took them they just studied the crap out of the question banks.


Now my fiance had to redo her entire exams (she didnt complete them in the allotted sittings) and even though it was somewhere around 8 years ago she was recently asked by Ryan Air about it and she didnt get offered the position. Now whether that was the determining factor I don't know. I would say most people for get most of it shortly after writing it.

It is until some sod announces that your going there. And its not the name of it that counts it what season it is, what direction its going to be blowing in and how strong. Which can make a difference to how many tech stops you are planning and what you can expect for wx and also the routing which may mean that you have to get a HF radio fitted.

....which is usually years down the line and can all be brushed up on closer to the time. Learning them all by rote and keeping them refreshed throughout PPL/CPL training is rather pointless.

well you don't have your books with you when years down the line you get asked to do a trip.

At least you know there are winds that you have to take into account.

I to thought most of it was a pile of poo.

Then over the years I have used more and more of it. Just hoping I never have to do polar grid nav, as I suspect I still won't have a clue what I am doing with it.

You are studying for a world wide Instrument rating with a license which allows you to operate world wide.

You might think hey we will get trained in ETOPS if we need it. Why bother mentioning it. Then ops wants you to fly straight across the Bay of Biscay and you only have a 160NM single engine for 1 hour. And the furthest out you get is 240 NM from a diversion airport. Which of course requires a 120 ETOPS approval.

Most of the stuff is to give you a heads up that should go and find out more. If you have never touched the subject before you won't have a clue your about to screw up.

And it might not be years down the line my FO on that trip was a 220 hour zero to hero who had payed for his own type rating and knew the boss.

How many loud hailers required on a double deck airliner?

How do supersonic air inlets work?

Use of LORANC?

Somniloquism?

All theory I have found so useful on the line!

I was asked about first time passes during the interview for my current job. Not sure how much of a deal clincher saying "all first time passes", but I was asked.

Not saying all of it is of use to everyone all of the time.

If one of your loudhailers is knackard how many pax can you take? Artie?

Oh we realise that the number of loud hailers is linked to max number of pax that can be on-board. H'mm that might be useful.

Loranc is just a bit of history with no questions about its operation.

And talking in your sleep if its not normal for you, shows signs of high stress and Fatigue does it not? That might be handy to know as well.

Also the having a hot bath or shower before going to bed to aid falling asleep I have used as well with success.

Well, simple fact of the matter is hammering the question banks will give you a better result on the tests than actually learning the stuff.

I am formally trained with a college degree on one of the subjects being tested, and incidentally it is the one where I get the lowest scores.. probably because I got lazy and refused to 'hammer the question bank' on a subject I felt I already mastered well above the syllabus requirements.

Multiple choice answers tests are: a) cheap to test en-masse, b) extremely error-prone both with false-positives and false-negatives. Why JAA/EASA chose this system for an important test such as ATPL is beyond me.

I guess any potential employer that will be concerned about the first-time passes or average grades needs to be informed of the actual low-quality level of the tests, and the 'randomness' of the results with regards to the performance of the student.

I have my grades on these tests as a proof of "I can learn any crap you throw at me and get a good score regardless of your stupid test system" more than a proof of "I actually learned and know a lot of stuff about flying/airline operations"

The company would expect me to check the MEL for U/S loudhailers.

Why put a "a piece of history" in the syllabus?

If I experienced any abnormal sleep issues I would consult a doctor.

Maybe they should have added questions on how to breathe, the systems of a Wrightflyer and what a bear does in the woods?

Well its work hasn't it you know that you have to look at the MEL.

And you also know that talking in your sleep is abnormal so you go see a doctor.

The loranC was only turned off in 2010 in the Atlantic. And when the first JAR exams came out there were still a few aircraft fitted with it.

And also Loran data channel is used to provide Differential GPS.

If you fly some old Middle east machines they have a funny Loran type radio box in them.

And they have been taught the systems of the wright flyer.

And breathing is in the Human performance syllabus.

And ****ting in the woods would be of use as well for some, as its proberly the first time they will have to make the choice between some mozzy infested brick hut with a hole in the floor and no bog paper or finding a quite spot to drop one without loosing half a pint of blood while you at it.


Found this which might be of interest. So its not dead yet in the marine world.

The knowledge that there are different requirements for loud hailers on single / double deck airliners was not what taught me that the first port of call for a defect is the MEL.

It was an excellent example of the esoteric information in the JAR exams that I sat. And there in lies the rub. Students might actually get more out of the exams if the basics were examined more practically and highly specialised knowledge was left to be taught when required.

Editted; What has maritime use of a navigation aid have to do with flying a aircraft?

There is a loran receiver used for Differential GPS which maybe used to get 200ft mins for GPS approaches. They pump it out at 100's of watts so its hard to jam.

The fact you know there is different requirements for loud hailers depending on the size and type of aircraft is enough. Lets face it that particular topic was what one page if that.

ATIS31,
It's probably not THAT important and I'm sure it wont prevent you getting a job completely.

However!

Your CV is in a pile of thousands at the start, the last thing you need is anything jumping out at a prospective employer to give them an excuse to bin your paper and move on to the guy next to you, who hammered the question bank and can demonstrate a 90% + average with first time passes.

The good news is that, it's totally normal to feel that way during the distance study part, the 2 week brush-up course will get you fit for the exam and hammering the database, in spite of the rightness/wrongness of it all, is essential and will get you the results you need.

It is daunting, I was in a very similar situation to you. Like they say at the start of the brush-up. If you put in the work, you will succeed. Slog it out, you'll be fine.

Thanks for your reply and words of encouragement Dan the Weegie

In fact Mad Jock, your post 14 says it all about the requirements to learn the JAR syllabus.

For example, my instructors said Loran C was largely obsolete in practice and would not feature in the JAR question bank, so I ignored it and moved on.

If I wanted access to the information that you have learned and churned onto post 14, all I would have to do would do is a quick google search and follow the very first link, and just about all of the knowledge of Loran C you have shared with us is sitting there, near word for word in Wikipedia!

:rolleyes:

Well you now know.

The majority of the other stuff comes in useful at some point.

Yes there are topics that some crusty auld git thinks are important but in this day and age they don't have much relevance.

There are also topics which aren't really touched but we could do with either in more detail or actually a full section on.

But that doesn't mean

Is correct.

Ryanair typically have been asking candidates on the phone about first time exam passes. Of all my students, the ones who said that they did not have all first time passes were not offered interviews. Sure the exams are a bit ridiculous, but when you have 8000 applications, it is just a filter, but as far as I have seen, Ryanair is one of the few airlines asking about ATPL exam passes.

Ooops, I guess I should have seen a doctor years ago :p

is it really 8000 applying?

3000 at least, as the cae website said.

Passing the exams at first attempt is useful because firstly is allows you to move on and secondly, it's cheaper. Needing more than one attempt may also preclude you from "working" for some companies. However, let's be very clear: The content of the exams is little short of diarrhoea. It's applicability to modern aviation is so marginal at to make it worthless. An hour or two on YouTube might be more useful. MEL's, actual met. data (who really cares about the name of the wind - that sort of thing is for a pub quiz) and computerised flight planning have replaced the somewhat optimistic "best guess" approach used in the past. If however, you start working for a company operating in the past (and/or Third World) then your knowledge is still wasted because you'll still be doing it their way.

Exams are just a step in a rather (at the moment) pointless path to getting a license.

Agree with that. I still passed CAA exams 12 of them till now first time, but I noticed they are changing the questionbanks. It is quiet annoying. Ofcourse you have to have good book knowledge, because that you will need in interviews, but even with that its hard to score above 90. I can tell you, at home I scored all the time way above 90, but exams below 90. Even had Rnav exam lately. 66 questions. 16 of the questions ive never seen.

So what I try to say. Maye sure you read the book well. First do questions to see where focus is on. Because you dont have to know every letter in the book. Just have to know how things work.

So good luck, but take ur time, because of changing QB.

Maybe in what you fly. But even working for a UK company I found alot of it useful.

Nope NAV doesn't change neither does the technical. And if you bust an Annex and pick up pax in the wrong place you could end up in some ****e hole prison praying that the company man will spring you and they won't just send another crew and get the plane and leave you.

Maybe if AF477 pilots had actually understood what they were doing and the principles of flight they would still be alive.

mad jock
 

have you ever been at fl390 in the night with turbulence with loss of airspeed and 47 master caution alarm in 1'30s?
Do you know all the 330's crews in all the company try to recover the situation at the sim, and most of the crew recover the airplane between 6000 and 9000 feet?

don't joke about this, please.

Fulminn, if that is the case, then there is a serious problem with either all the crews in the company, or the flight control system of the airbus.
I know which my money is on.

I ain't joking.

And it ain't funny that basic concepts and skills are getting washed away by automation.

I had a pitot system icing problem in cloud and turbulence a month ago in the climb.

You won't find it in any of the incident rags.

Because after I pitched up 2 degrees to 14degs the airspeed was still rising when I would have expected it to come back by 10knts. So I ignored it and went back to my normal climb attitude and made sure all the pitot icing gear was on as well as the airframe then had a look at the FO's ASI which was reading what I expected. Then gave him the rest of the sector and grounded it.

Had I not known that attitude plus power equals performance maybe I would have continued to pitch the nose up until we stalled then hauled back on the stick defeating the stick shaker and then told the FO all the way down that I don't understand what's happening.. Who knows....

yes, ok, P+P=performance, but with all the other sounds and warning probably would be much complicated to comply with this simple rule...just this!

Nope its your job to be able to see through the smoke and tackle the fire. Its the reason why you call yourself a professional pilot.

In the main we are paid to be there for the very rare occasions that training and knowledge will save the day.

Without knowledge the BA 777 Captain at Heathrow wouldn't have reduced the flap to get rid of drag flap to give him a longer glide range. If he hadn't the plane would have crashed in a residential area and taken most if not all of the pax along with ground casualties. He managed to pull that knowledge out of his head with a twin engine failure Which I suspect will have a similar numbers of alarms and lights flashing as AF477.

That simple rule saved hundreds of lives, and more importantly it saved his own.

As has been pointed out ones ATPL theory exam results are often used as a filter to get you the interview. But then you must too be prepared to answer technical questions should you be invited to interview. Most operators will know that question banks are heavily relied upon to help pass the subjects and as such may not ask about your exam results directly but possibly ask some ATPL theory questions to test your real understanding and knowledge.

Hammering the question bank is no way to properly learn the subject rather more to help one understand how the CAA is wording and asking the questions. Some questions are worded so ambiguously or even poorly translated from other EASA member states, that it is almost impossible to understand what they are asking! Learn the subject content properly before attempting the question banks and use the banks to test your knowledge not to memorise the answers.

Disagree. If the sounds and warnings affected human performance to the state where he cannot remember to push forward in a stall then these alarms and lights would be significantly reduced in cockpits.

POF is the most important ATPL subject in my view, and POF is definitely a very useful subject in day to day flying. Sure you might not care much for the advantages of a T-tail if you fly an aircraft with a conventional tail. Take the ATPLs and then apply it to what you will be doing day to day, I for one will never re-learn polar stereographics in GNAV unless I'll by flying in an area where it's needed.

Thread drift.
One of the issues with AF447 is that the systems logic deselects the stall aural alert off as it is configured such that if the speed is less than (eg) 60* kts then the aircraft must be on the ground. Thus, as it was stalled and with a very low airspeed, the aural alarm did not activate.
However, when he briefly relaxed the back pressure, the speed increased, alert became active and thus the pilot did what was previously keeping that alert quiet...

*I don't know the actual speed, but it's quite low.

Back to topic.

I've never been asked for first time pass exams results for any flying job.

to re-join the thread, i'm working with an irish based 737 company, and they ask me the paperwork with the results of the exam. all first attempt.

mad_jock I have the feeling it's been quite a while since you took these exams. Perhaps it was even so long ago that you had to take written exams and study a meaningful syllabus.

If that is the case, I strongly suggest you try to get your hands on a few 2012-2013 question databases and try to get some answers in there. I believe you will be 'amused' to say the least ...

I was in the first rounds of JAR when all you got was a 40 photocopied sheets from the cadets that had written the questions on the back of the CRP 5's so you had no option but to learn it.

The syllabus hasn't changed that much. I do though now have 10 years experience behind me though to use some of that theory.

"Maybe in what you fly. But even working for a UK company I found alot of it useful. "

Even Canadian companies. Flying around N Alberta, I use convergency all the time as part of my mental arithmetic.

As far as the syllabus goes - yes, a lot of it is stuff that really should be on a Flight Engineer's exam. The rest of it you will have to know at some stage - or at least you will know it by the time you retire! EASA likes you to know it up front, as you will have a licence that takes you into many countries. I don't have a real problem with that - as a TRE, do I ignore part of the check ride because I know the candidate doesn't do that in his job? No, because my signature entitles that candidate to be a professional pilot - I don't know where they will end up.

And anyhow - flat knowledge is worth 30% of problem solving time in an emergency. You can't get enough of it.

But the sad truth is that you cannot pass the exams on knowledge alone. You have to use the databases to practice using questions that are riddled with bad English, bad punctuation, misspellings, multiple correct answers, multiple wrong answers, some in the middle - in short, it's a major SNAFU and an international joke, for which the perpetrators should hang their collective heads in shame. Here is an example:

"ESSENTIAL TRAFFIC" is that controlled flight to which the provision of separation by ATC is applicable, but which, in relation to a particular controlled flight is not separated therefore by the appropriate separation minima. Whenever separation minima is not applied. The following flights are considered essential traffic one to each other."

This is a quote about a recent navigation exam from a very experienced military pilot from the USA undergoing a conversion.

"For the Nav I found that a number of questions did not offer the actual solution. I was using a Jep CR-3 computer which gives slightly different answers than theirs. I then did a spot check on a number of their problems solving them by trig. The trig is really only GCSE level (sin/cos/tan, and then the law of sines). What dumbfounded me was NONE of their answers were correct. I am at a complete loss of what to do with this. All the wind problems were Euclidian so really quite simple. Also, I don't use the 60-1 small angle approx since I had a calculator (and the CR3 does trig nicely) and they are very quick. Even with these simple ones, they did not have the exact answers, with the correct answers almost smack in between two others.

For my next attempt I am at a loss for what to do. I the correct answers is not correct, then what kind of arbitrary, just happen to be the answer they found are they looking for? To they understand that in this simple math there is exactly one answer? Do they understand the difference between accuracy and precision? These too have tight definitions, but that seems to be lost on them. They seem to be happy with precision being that they all get around the same wrong answer, but either don't understand the simple math or don't care how to get accuracy. Unless they are going to specify the exact model of flight computer, to include the date of manufacturing since tolerances change, how can they do this? Perhaps I should send them ISO 5725."

No amount of knowledge will get you through the exams with situations like the above.

I thought they did specify a whizz wheel the CRP-5.

I did actually think at the time my crap grammar and spelling and certain traits of being Dyslexic actually helped me with the exams.

Maybe not the biggest offenders, but this is of the top of my head:

"The inner layer of a windscreen is made of: a) soft polycarbonate b)glass"

"The ILS uses frequencies in the : a)VHF b)UHF"

Depending on your definition of "inner", you start to understand most of these questions require a skilled usage of a lucky coin flip. Consider that some of the tests consist of as few as 25 questions, which means you can lose up to >10% of your score simply by getting a few "unlucky" coin flips.

I have attended cooking classes that have more professional tests.

No idea how much of what I learned will be useful or not, I do not know that. What I do know, what I am saying, is the tests are low quality.