Quick rant....
 

Just thought I'd throw this out there.

After having recently having completed my PPL in Florida I noticed a very 'night & day' difference between the USA and the UK in regards to aviation and the general attitude towards the industry.

I have to say I am saddened and disappointed that there is so much negativity in the UK aviation industry, and by this I mean generally the wannabe's amongst us. My comments here do not apply to all of you, and so if you are like me and are positive and will work hard from the bottom up to succeed I am not directing my comments at you. It frustrates me that there is so much negativity and that so many of you are prepared to slag people and organisations off, belittle companies and it would seem go out of your way to put off any other newbies who just want to pursue their dream and become a professional pilot.

As a 29 year old who has been pretty successful I think I have a pretty good leg to stand on when I say that nothing comes for free in this world, and that it takes hard work to make your mark, become successful in whatever career you choose, and usually takes years of commitment, dedication, and resilience to slowly claw your way up the ladder. This is not usually any different for any industry, and I can assure you I know first hand the meaning of hard work and putting in the time to climb that ladder. It took me 8 years of hard work at my company to finally find that job that I considered to be a successful persons job. Not that I didn't feel important and successful before but my current job role finally made me feel like I have become something.

Why should aviation be any different? If anything it should be harder as it is such a specialist industry and even just having a PPL makes me feel special and privileged. After all, how many people out there have a pilots license? In a company of over 400 people I only know one other who is a qualified pilot, and that makes me feel damn good. Aviation is a niche thing, something that deserves time, hard work, and respect and if it means working your ass off to land that first job flying a turbo prop and earning £20k a year then so be it. That's life, and you can't expect to jump into a Jumbo and take home £60k a year. I started at my company on £7k per year, and 12 years later I have a basic of £35k with the potential for another £10k or so on top as bonus. Am I bitter that other companies like mine pay their sales guys £55k per year basic? NO. I am where I am, and in anything I do with my life I realise that I will need to work hard, work smart, be proactive, be creative, look for opportunities and take them, or if they're not there then maybe I need to find a way to create opportunities. Sir Alan Sugar didn't get to where he is through being bitter and twisted and thinking that the world owed him something. He grafted, he tried new things and worked hard. His dedication and resilience paid off and now he can look back and be satisfied that his success was his doing.

Come on people. The bitterness and negativity needs to stop. The companies in this industry, Easy Jet, CTC, OAA etc etc are businesses and they are successful because they work hard, find opportunities and exploit them. It's called business and it's the name of game. Stop being bitter and trying to rebel and sleight these organisations, and instead accept that you have chosen to be a part of this industry and that if you want to get that dream job and fly A380's around the world then you need to play by this industries rules. I agree that some things are a pain, and put newbies at a disadvantage, but I can assure you that the ones who succeed wont be the ones who sit on here slagging everyone and everything off. They will be the one's who work hard, get their head down, get on with it, and play their cards right. Life is tough, and landing the dream job is tough, but moaning about it wont get you anywhere.

Just a thought :cool:

Good stuff...:ok:...I'm getting a litle tired of all the assumptions and feelings of entitlement.

Well said :D

Hear Hear.

I've worked in aviation all my adult life and seen plenty of this, although seldom paid as a pilot. The sense of entitlement you describe seems to exist in young civil pilots and young engineering graduates - in reality both usually get it beaten out of them within the first five years in their respective workplaces. So does overcommunication, which on net is why you hear so much of it.

G

Another great post, Thankyou! I have PM'd you about flying also!

Well said.

@Jambone, if you look at others school and take your eyes off the big ones you can pay less than half of that price. :)

Good read, very well said

Jambone,

there is nothing like 'guaranteed' job. Neither for doctors nor for lawyers, pilots, engineers etc.

I'm a law school graduate. I've decided to become a pilot (after 2 years in law firm). I can tell you that my university fellows share the same frustration as newbies in aviation. It's life. Who said that success is an easy thing to reach??
Aviation industry is just like any other. I see no difference between flight school and law school graduates. Not only in Poland, where I come from. My spouse has graduated law in London. She (and her friends from Med School) can tell you sth. about 'guaranteed' succes.

ct8282. Thanks for your post. I've came back to Europe from the US and I felt as depresse as you were. I think this is solely a matter of approach and attitude. I take yours ;)

Wow! I guess if for some reason your airline dreams do not work out as planned, you could always moonlight as a Life Coach.

Thanks peeps. I'm glad you all responded the way you have. I was expecting the normal mob to jump on the thread and kick off about how this industry is sh*t, and how the FTO's are criminals and exploit us poor wannabies.

I wrote the thread as I was doing my normal scanning of the forum and after reading soooo many new and old threads about this so called sh*t industry and how I shouldn't waste my time flying a plane ever again I started thinking back over my life and really challenging myself and my aspirations to be a pilot. Instead of feeling down and put off I realised that in my life so far I have had to work hard and generate my own success. No one handed it to me on a plate, my parents didn't give me any money, I just spoke to the right people, made the right enquiries, took opportunities when they arose and worked hard. Nothing more than that.

Flying is no different. It's true that there are not enough jobs to go around the many qualified pilots but is this different to any other industry, really? I wonder what the moaners think should happen. Perhaps they think that the airlines should buy more Boeings and Airbuses so that we can all have a job. They seem to forget that the airlines operate a certain number of aircraft to fulfill their passenger demand. Perhaps then the moaners think that more people should fly more often so that the airlines could buy more aircraft and we could all have a job?

At the end of the day, the industry is where it is. Life is tough, and competition for any job in any industry will exist. That's the game and rather than just sending hundreds of CV's and then moaning that no one will interview them, perhaps the 'moaners' should look for ways to differentiate themselves and make their application stand out.

Have a great day peeps. :ok:

it's not an industry, it's not a career, it s not a job, it's not study, it's not....

aviation became one thing only:

a SCAM!

:yuk:

Negativity, why?

What's there to be negative against in the industry?

Getting paid 1000 Euro a month for 18 months, after paying £30.000 for your own TR!
People giving promises that they never keep!

Having only been qualified for few months, I have to admit much of the negativity is in fact based on facts. It seems that for some it seems to be a fools game, all THEY WANT is YOUR/OUR money in any way they can get it.

I believe as a PPL you will have very little basis to voice your opinion, as you will not have had any experience in what job search in this sector entitles. I have done business for 20 years, and always been honest, it does not seem that these are ethics aviation work with.

I am not bitter, I am just stating how it really is, unless you have very good contacts (and even then it is not easy), there is very little chance get a sniff of a job at the moment. There are jobs, but most of them go in house, or trough private connections - which I understand, but it does not make it easier.

A privilege to be a pilot! Why? I have had professions which have been similar prestigious, which even less people in the world would know how to do, I did not do it because I wanted to be special and different, but because it was something that I wanted to do for myself, not something I did to show that I was special. And in the US a pilot licence is much less special then in Europe, as I know plenty who at one stage in their life had a PPL in the US.

What is wrong with the industry? Lack of vision is one of them, pilots and FTO's looking to screw pilots for their money with promises of help to get jobs - make sure you read the print twice before you sign anything or do anything, because be sure, you will be the victim!

The industry rules are that the low cost now really want to get rid of the FO as a job, they want it to be paying trainee pilots, that is the long term prospect until one of them makes a hole in the ground!

I think the biggest problem is the attitude the industry has got to pilots, because there are to many pilots, newbies, who don't mind working for a bag of peanuts as long as they get to fly fly fly!
They know this, and they make us all pay for this!

ct8282,

I come from a poor family and in my first proper job I earned 12.5k. Seven years later, I work somewhere completely different and earn around 40k. Like you I could say I worked hard to get where I am. It doesn't really mean anything though. The people that get support from their parents so they can go to OAA may have an easier start to flying than the rest of us, but it doesn't mean that they would be any less driven than the rest of us to go out and earn the money to pay their own way if they didn't have that advantage.

I can't help but read your post and think that because you've gone out and put the effort in that you now seem to expect some recognition and praise for your efforts. To be honest nobody cares how you pay for your training.

I agree you can be positive and get where you want to get to in life, but the negativity here on Pprune isn't exactly baseless as BoeingDreamer has already indicated.

Professional aviation is probably unlike most other industries in that there isn't a typical ladder to climb. Personally I would love to have a go at flying turboprops for a living. If I could live on the salary being offered I'd certainly consider any flying job. It would seem however that if you're goal is to get into the RHS of a jet, than flying TPs is not the way to go. Airlines do employ cadets with minimum hours and the cash for a type rating, but for direct entry pilots you will likely need to have jet time rather than just experience flying TPs. This much is evident from reading threads here on Pprune.

What a load of rubbish this thread is.

Doesn't matter what industry you work in there will always be negativity. If there is a forum for wannabe train drivers they too would be sharing the same views posted on PPRuNE. Point being, businesses are struggling and it's even harder for the younger generation to break into any skilled career. It's how the individual deals with the negativity and what they do about it. Personally i believe surrounding yourself by too much negativity i.e PPRuNE can force you into being a pessimist. Having said that, you've got to love the banter on here sometimes!

ct8282, I read your post.
It looks like you are complaining because some wannabes are complaining.
It's funny because the moaning doesn't stop with you, it just goes to a higher degree...
It looks like the english expression: a dog chasing its tail,
I still prefer the french expression: the snake that bites its tail (le serpent qui se mord la queue) to describe this thread.

http://users.skynet.be/cedesguin/bro...s/serpent0.gif

I don't think you can go so far as to say doctors are guaranteed a job, but there is a reason that the UK has special categories in the Tiered points based Visa system for doctors and nurses. Not enough Britons are going into medicine and nursing, so they have to make immigration easier to attract foreigners to fill the need. Perhaps the explanation for the shortage is that the terms of endearment in the UK medical system are ****e. Of the many UK medical professionals I have encountered, I'd say the vast majority are in it because it is a calling, not because it is financially lucrative. Pilot wannabes would be well advised to treat aviation the same way or prepare for early burnout and disillusionment.

Jambone is correct- it is out of order to exploit the hopes and wishes of people keen to get into aviation (although publishers do it to authors as well), especially when the fees concerned are tax deductible for the company anyway. Some airlines are not even paying pilots until not only have they paid for their type rating, but their OPC and line training as well.

Why is this happening? Because there is always somebody willing to accept it. My stepdaghter recently went through £50,000 worth of training for the insurance industry with no question of paying it back if she leaves or gets pregnant - they simply assume that her replacement will have had similar training elsewhere in the industry.

As a Chief Pilot I have never (and will never) take on pilots who offer to work for free or contribute to their training, as it represents a potential self-esteem problem. I want people with the confidence to state what they are worth and behave accordingly. That's where Captaincy starts from.

Phil


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The amount of irony in this thread amuses me.

People moaning about people moaning about people moaning about people moaning ad infinitum.

Shame, some of us can all be such a happy relaxed bunch over a pint at the bar.

Except Jawbone of course, who may only drink with a meal and an accompanying adult :)

Happy Friday, 4015

PS: Paco and Jawbone - Good posts.

Jambone
 

Yes, but a degree takes 4 years minimum an ATPL can take 12-18months, so thats 3 years of earning potential for the ATPLer. If an ATPLer gets hired straight away in a decent airline he could have paid off all his training costs and be earning a good take home just as our medic and lawyer are graduating and looking for a 20k a year job.

Anyway most of the negativity on pprune IS bourne out of experience not idle chit chat or fantasy, take a look at the "Ryanair Exodus Plan" thread on terms and conditions page and you will see that those who threw money at Ryanair are getting their come uppance now. (That is if you believe what the posters are saying because it's too negative).

That's a sweeping statement isn't it? I know people that have spent only one year at university and come out with a degree.

Not all degrees cost £9,000 a year yet surely? In the UK, does the government no longer pick up some or all of the tab for tuition based on your background? I never paid anything for tuition and neither did my sister, and she has a PhD now.

There's nothing to say a pilot has to train at an integrated school that charges £100k, so these comparisons to what a degree might cost you are pointless. I bet even the cheapest modular route would be more expensive than an average degree.

Well money isn't everything but perhaps wannabes are under the impression that they will be well paid in the future, they may be asking around and discovering some pilots are on five figure salaries. Maybe they don't realise that once those big earners retire, those salaries will never likely be seen in aviation again. I suspect many though will be happy earning £30k plus. They are not concerned with their potential earnings or thinking in any great detail about the future, they just wanna fly the heavy metal!

I forget what this thread was about now.

Tell me where you can get a bachelors degree in 1 year from a recognised University? Sure you can get a degree online by sending in 4 kellogs packet tops and a wad of cash to some southern bible school in the USA but a recognised University no way you can get your first degree in a year!!! Is that a sweeping statement or what?

Also, if you also include living costs and the type rating YOU ARE going to spend £100k.

Also factor in..

The lost earnings during any periods when Training Full Time.

The opportunity cost in the capital required to train.

A frozen ATPL is often WELL over £100K, and thats before funding a further period of PTF...

Fair original post.

To Boeing Dreamer:
If I am frustrated because I don't respect my industry or my employer, what kind of a man am I to stay?
A. One who lacks self respect.

What kind of a man am I to stay and complain that the industry is causing my pain?
A. One who lacks self respect and cannot admit it.

If you wish to deflect this underlying truth and say silly stuff like "I have a family to feed so I have to stay!", then there's your payoff right there. So the deal is square. Any further complaint is unfounded.

There are a number of college courses that "upgrade" to a degree with one or two years further study. Like I said, I know it can be done. My point was that not all degrees are 4 years minimum. I don't know why you would think they were?

Including living costs and a type rating? If you are not training on an integrated course, meaning that you can work, pressumably you are paying for your living anyway? Now what type rating would you like to include? You could end up paying £100k, but even if you didn't it would still cost more than an average degree.

Why bother comparing it? Now there's a question...

Gaping hole in finances for modular
 

I have to agree with the general sentiment of the poster - there is a lot of negativity out there...

However, let me describe my circumstances. I was sponsored by the RAF via the RAF Flying Scholarship scheme back in the day (1998). I've self funded a degree in Mechanical Engineering via several years as an Officer in the Territorial Army. I have spent the last few years working in Design and Development/Flight Test on a large aircraft. While I was doing all of this I was hour building and doing my ATPLs...

I'm about to start the CPL...

I now find myself in the situation that I might not EVER be able to get a job due to my financial situation (I earn 33k and have virtually no 'non-flying debt, for the record. Do I sound well off?).
I do not have rich folks who could pay, or are willing to stand guarantor for me. I have paid for my training to date with small loans and my pay. I've just lent 20k unsecured for the CPL/IR. I am saddled with this debt for the next five years...

What do I do now? I am effectively "borrowed out" for the next five years. The 'entry level' turbo-prop (Think Eastern or Flybe.) jobs are asking for bonds and, or the pay is so low that I could not afford to move to the work, let alone maintain the repayments on the cost of my CPL/IR loan. Would they really give me a job on my doorstep if I outlined my financial situation? As opposed to the far flung base in the sticks that new guy usually have to start at... :rolleyes:

Next point: Some of the jet jobs have dropped their starting salaries to either 70% or 81% contracts meaning shocking starting salaries (Jet2 & BMi Baby), whilst at the same time asking for Type Ratings to be paid.
So, in five years I could lend enough money to pay for a Type Rating... but wouldn't be able to afford to move to the work on the appalling starting salaries (20k and 28k using the aforementioned operators as an example).

Now, I don't expect a living but one can't help but be utterly deflated when wealthy nineteen year olds with nothing on their CV can trump my CV just because they're from a well off background.

Not trying to defend the miserable gits on here but maybe they've done their research, albeit they don't come across that well with their advice.

Just my situation. :{

At 16, Jambone is allowed in a pub on his own but may not consume nor purchase alcohol.

But he is allowed to get p1ssed on chocolate liqueurs! That's a winner!

500
 

We were talking specifically about medical/law degrees here, I don't think you could do them in a year. Also your "bachelor's degree in one year" requires about 3 or 4 years previous study to HNC or HND level or equivalent so to say that you could recieve a degree with just one year's study is talking brown!!!

lol at Jambone. I'm thinking you'd be sick from the chocolate well and truly before you noticed the effects of the alcohol. Worth a shot though....

Okay.

I was confused because you hadn't specifically said which two specific degrees you were specifically talking about. :)

No please DO forget ALL about it so we can all go back to being positive!

We all know flying is ******* expensive, so why should we expect it to be as cheap (relatively) as a medical/ law degree? Or was it decided that they cost the same? No! Do not what ever you do answer that, there's already too much negativity on this forum! :)

Of course it is. Forget the merits or comparability of degrees etc, flight training is the only career I can think of (at the moment) that involves extensive training with some seriously expensive pieces of kit.

Quite a lot of scientists jobs actually - and I have known people who have self-funded their PhDs (to a fair extent I did). Although it's more common still for scientists to be paid whilst they train (I mean the real postgraduate and postdoctoral training, not the relatively basic batchelors degree.)

G

Spent some time last Sept working out how much University would cost me in total to do a degree and also how much my friends would end up paying for their degrees (all 4/5 year degrees).

Costs ranged from around £30k for the 4 year courses and those living at home to around £80k for a couple doing 5 year courses living out-of-home, not including living costs, just rent and fees.

a fATPL can be obtained slightly towards the lower end of this range, which to me makes it seem not much different than what people going to uni are doing. Naturally the big downside is the fact that there is no 'student loan' for flight training.

erm??? Really?

With regards student loans you're looking at it wrong. Student loans are for higher learning, the standard of which is well above ATPL level study. The ATPL and CPL/IR are professional courses. You could compare it to bus driving, train driving, ferry piloting. Pilots don't like the comparison because they naturally like to think alot of themselves; the sky-gods that they are.

It would be nice if aviation employers would take the responsibilty of screening and training their own staff at their own expense, but ultimately they know they don't have to, so they don't.

I doubt anybody would drive a train or a bus if they had to pay £50k upfront.

Jambone you can't seriously think we have "drastic under-regulation" in the UK. The recent changes being made in the US do not prove that we do either. By the way, US airline pilots don't have to pass 14 ATPL exams. Are you going to tell me that the US is "drastically under-regulated" now?

I did not say that it was as equally challenging to drive a train or bus as it is to fly commercially or to learn to fly comercially, I merely said they were comparable. They are comparable in that they all require professional training and they all involve people transport. The difference is pilots pay for their training because it's a popular career choice. There is no "injustice" in this comparison so please don't get your panties all twisted.

I also don't think you needed to quote my entire post in your post when they were next to each other.

EDIT:

LOL!

Although you've now quoted Jambone's whole post when your post was next to his!

Errr, how do you quote people on this forum?

You guys are right to say a medical or law master degree is so different than a CPL/IR.

The CPL/IR: you are in a cokpit or not. That's a driver licence associated with a medical. The only goal is the cokpit, final point. Like the bus driver licence is to drive a bus. A CPL/IR doesn't even make you smarter.

A Law master degree however changes your brain and leads to many fields: Civil servant, Lawyer, manager in a company... hell if you don't find anything you can stay at home and set a website to give law advices. Hard to use your CPL/IR at home... We really cannot compare both training, a law degree is much more flexible. A CPL/IR looks much more like a lottery ticket than a proper education.

PPRuNe standard quotation procedure:

Stand up, run around your chair three times, sit down, raise keyboard above your head and back down again three times, copy the text you would like to quote (ctrl + c), paste text into your post where you want it (ctrl + v), highlight quoted text, place your non-mouse hand on your crotch, and click on the "Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text" button.

You only have to do this the first time though! :)

I just think it's pointless copying an entire post and quoting it right below the original.

Edit: I hope you weren't asking seriously, though you will be able to work it out from the standard procedure above! ;)

Or click "reply" then when the web address appears in the top of your browser, change "noquote=1" to "noquote=0", and hit enter.

G