Give up the dream or go for it?
 

I'm a firm believer of everything happens for a reason, and that if you want something bad enough, if you work for it, you'll get it.

To shed a bit of light onto my story (making this sound like a sob story Britain's Got Talent audition!) I'm your typical, all I want to do in life is be an Airline Pilot kind of person and would really go to the ends of the earth to get there. I can't really think of any other way to put it, it's all I want to do.

I'm only 15, and I'll soon be leaving secondary school to go onto Sixth Form to start my A-Levels, having said which, I'm not entirely sure which A-Levels I'm going to be doing yet. I'm thinking maybe, Business Studies, English Language, Geography and French or Biology, as if a life in the sky doesn't work, I'm thinking about going into ICT/Business. :bored:

Thinking about my future, I'm deciding what I'm supposed to do when I leave Sixth Form:

• Go to University, get a degree in something completely different, then go into flying - however, I'll never ever, in my wildest dreams be able to afford both.
• Get a job for a year or two, save up as much money as I can, learn how to fly, and look for a job. Which, if I can't find a job, I'm left unemployed and most likely in debt.
• Maybe, get myself into loads of debt straight away, and learn how to fly, then left repaying it all. (My parents would never agree to this option and would most likely dis-own me or something!)
• Or maybe, with a miracle from the big man above, be accepted on some cadetship at the other side of the globe, but as I'm not going for a Maths/Physics based A-Level choice, I guess this will never happen. :ugh:

I'm hoping as I'm young, I can use this to my advantage, maybe the economy and job market will have improved in the next 5 years, and there'll be a much better chance of me finding a job. :8

But, as it is now, I just can't decide if I should give it up, although I'll probably regret it forever, or just go for it? It really is, literally, and in the pun sense, fall or fly! :sad:

What advice would you give to a determined, 15 year old who is willing to go to the end's of the earth to achieve her dream?
Thank you!
PS - Happy Easter! :ok:

If you pick flying in the end, don't go into loads of debt to get there. Being debt free will give you a certain freedom that is easy to enjoy, but once lost, hard to get back.

Follow what's in your heart! I wouldn't give up, but there's time enough to do some stuff without getting into debt quite yet! :)

With your A levels I would include Physics (or whatever they call it these days) and a language or two. There are plenty of good study books on pilot stuff available cheap on ebay - start reading those. Knowledge both keeps you out and keeps you out of trouble (or rather, lack of knowledge doesn't!)

Good luck!

For a 15 year old, you seem to have already given it quite some thought and worked out what your options are. I think you're right to pick A-levels that you're interested in rather than the traditionally regarded "must-haves" of Physics and Maths. You really won't need them.

Pressumably you're parents would rather you go to university? Likely with the sneeky hope that you'll get invested in it and forget all about flying commercially and the potential hardship/ joblessness that might go with it. Personally I'm not a big believer in the power of a degree to land you a job, and now with hindsight, I know I certainly would have been better off financially not going to university.

My advice is to do your A-levels, and see if you can find a job with a half-decent wage that you don't utterly despise. If you can find one, and living at home, you should be able to save up fast for flying training. Take a year out of education and if all does not go well, then head off to university and see how things go. Giving up in the short term may not mean you never achieve your dream. I've seen so many threads on Pprune over the last few years of people successfully transitioning to a flying career in their 30's and 40's.

I wouldn't worry about the economy and how the market may be in the future, because no one has a clue how it will be in the next 10 years. Though some people would have you believe otherwise!

When you do start training (I'm pretty sure you will) remember that there are alot of fun things to fly and get experience of; it seems too many people just take the blinkered approach of "minimal-hours-to-everything" and then try to get a job. It amazes me that some people just want to fly an airliner and nothing else. If you're not flying because you just love to fly then ask yourself why you are doing it?

I wish you all the best whatever you decide.

I am sorry for the lack of imagination, but for this kind of question, I have always the same standard answer: go to university, then buy a glider or similar if flying is really a passion. The best choice you can make, especially if you are a young individual looking for a career like you.

Some people are adventurers, and if it were not pilot they would have choosen something even more challenging anyway. I was fire man, then para trooper (went to different countries like Africa...) before choosing to fly bush in Canada, instruction in Asia, eventually the airlines. It was not a big deal for me to face a challenging life as a young pilot, or issues with my job, or get my first job far away and in difficult environment, because that is precisely what I wanted. In this case the The500man post is valid.

But a young lady like you (the same for a young man anyway) wondering about career choice in 2011: university of pilot training? University Omlaaay, even if down the road Cathay Pacific call you to pay for your training in Australia.





This is your own post below, answering somebody asking if he should go for it, maybe you should read it again, it may inspire you...http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ml#post6313084



The lesson we should learn from it: a wannabe should refrain from giving pilot career advices to an other wannabe.

The first thing I would do is get a class one medical.

A levels are no use to you its a blue license that you need. So quit school at the first opportunity and get the highest paying Monday to Friday job you can. Nag the local flying school to give you a weekend job else bum around there anyway and try and hitch the odd flight.

Do your flying training in stages when you have the CREDIT. Read lasors and know all the short cuts and minimums. IF you have the drive you will get there.

If you use your medical etc then go and do your A levels, Uni an dbe depressed for the rest of your life.

Of course if your a millionaire then simply go oxford, ctc and pay your way into a job.

If you really come from :mad: hole central then don't dish the microlight instructor route. Its gets you flying and earning money with less initial outlay.

Omlaaay,

I find the title of your post slightly baffling. You're 15 and haven't even done your A-levels and you're considering giving up your dream? Surely this is the time in your life when you start to make that dream a reality?!

Wherever life takes you, you will undoubtedly achieve more by aiming high. Whether it's worth aiming for a life in the clouds piloting a passenger jet is another question and one that cannot easily be answered by someone else. By joining Pprune you are making the right start. There is so much information on this website for people in your position, especially in the stickies. Read it all and reach your own conclusions.

The big question is: Do you have the aptitude for becoming a professional pilot? I suggest you try GAPAN or a similar organisation and do a test. You can find them HERE.

Good luck.

Being realistic and organized gives some good result too sometimes... ;-)
Anyway I quoted you because I disagree with your "undoubtedly". I would put "sometimes" or "maybe" instead.
Why? Many examples of people falling hard after having aimed high.
How many kids in the 70s/80s wanted to become cosmonaut/astronaut/taikonaut? Look at our situation in 2011, even if some individuals (very few) are sometimes turning at low level around the earth, there is no today such a thing called "astronaut", at least not the way we were seing the space travel/exploration in 1970.
Even if we can find examples to support the "beleive in your dream" or "aiming high" theory, we will each time find even more examples to support the opposite, which is: being realistic.
For this reason I would replace the "undoubtedly".

KAG is spot on.

Before you start throwing money at any kind of flight training I would at least wait until you are old enough to gain a PPL license (17). This doesn't mean to say you cannot undertake any flight training, far from it. Maybe a trail lesson might not go amiss just to see if you love it as much as you say you do.
The most precious commodity you have on your side is time, and lots of it. Use this time to get your education, this is very important at your age (or anyone's age). A university degree would not be a bad thing at all even though people are advising you don't do it. I will advise you do get one, purely because in this flying game things are very uncertain, and no more so for wannabes.
Contrary to the counter arguments you read here against people telling wannabes like it is (alot don't listen), there are alot of wannabes who will never, ever make it in the industry. There's only a certain number of jobs per year and the wannabe numbers far outstrip the number of jobs on offer. With this in mind I would be realistic (KAGs post) about your chances of succeeding. For any wannabe the chances are reasonable to not good odds. It is for this reason that I would have a back up plan that includes a good education. If it all goes wrong for you (and I know a hell of alot of people who it has gone wrong for) then at least you may be in a position to further a career with that good education.
Use the time you have to research, and research hard. There's generally 2 paths into the airlines, modular & integrated. There are pro's & cons for both, but which you decide to choose will dictate how you go about planning your future life & career path.
Whatever you decide though, if mum & dad won't help with the funding then please stay living at home, this will be the only way you will afford to pay for it. As soon as you buy a house and settle down that is the end of your hard earned cash for a fair few years ;)

Good luck.

Of all the Wannabes that I used to kick about only two failed to make it and both due to health problems. Sure it took some alot more time than others but they all got there in the end.

These days you could be looking at a 40 grand debt after graduating. This might be OK if you have a degree in medicine or dentistry but for the majority of degrees all it will mean is an extra burden for your flight training.

So I would suggest going straight into flight training. You do the A Levels/degree if you don't make it.

And as many other before have said don't get into debt. I know only to well one 23 year old who lost his medical 6 months into his first job.

Thanks Coffin Corner.


Mickey:
So we have experienced pilots without job, or even worse: experienced pilot paying to work, but 100% of the wannabees getting jobs. That a perfect world we have to admit after having read your post and your observations.

"I think you're right to pick A-levels that you're interested in rather than the traditionally regarded "must-haves" of Physics and Maths"

Beg to differ

You don't need an A level in maths, but Physics is definitely a must.

I had the same situation as you when I was 15, all I wanted was to be a pilot too! I did A levels (including maths and physics), and then went on to do a degree in architecture as a back up. The difference back then was that university was cheaper. The student loan I have to repay is a substantial amount less than now unfortunately for you.

I graduated from university even more convinced on the career as an airline pilot, as the architecture course completely put me off the subject that I once found very interesting.

I then decided to go about my 'dream' and looked into my pilot training options. I soon realised that my degree didnt really mean alot, atleast when starting to train, its all about your finance. Integrated was too much money, and modular is alot too, and requires you to have a fairly decent job to fund it.

So, now I am beginning on the modular path, getting my PPL. In hindsight I sometimes wish I'd of started modular when I left school, as a degree doesn't count for alot these days. It certainly hasn't stood me in any better position for jobs in this economic environment, and I feel if I'd started modular when I was 18 I'd probably be finishing my CPL/IR now, instead I'm starting my PPL!

Having said all that, I certainly became a better rounded person from completing a degree. I think you mature alot in many ways by going to university, so in many ways that life experience may be quite valuable. Also, who knows what my degree may count for in the future? It may be the difference between getting a job somewhere down the line.

My point is that you don't know what the future holds, and people who tell you to go to university because 'things may have changed for the better by the time you finish' are not necessarily right. When I'd finished Uni things definitely had changed, for the worse.

Just my take on things. All the best.

GAZ45, I use to say the same as you. To become a pilot you have to fly, and an university degree could even be an handicap sometimes, simply because it could make you miss the hiring train.
This is true. A few years back, I would have said that.

So why I wouldn't say it anymore? For 2 reasons:
-In this particular case I don't beleive I should encourage anybody to do something they are not sure about. That's not my task, even if it was my kid. I would say in this case don't do it (because when you want to become a pilot, you don't ask around the permission, and I know what I am talking about), or I could say aswell: when you are sure about it, come back to me with questions about the job.
-Second reason I now give the advice to go to university is because I beleive that many individual getting their training today won't find a pilot job, or will lose it if they find one because of the oil crisis we entered in 2007. So when I say go to university, that's simply because I beleive that in the future there will be more and more "chance" you will use your master degree than use your CPL to make a living, especially if your goal is to be an airline pilot and not a bush pilot in PNG or Africa.
Times evolve and change , advices and plans/choices have to evolve and change aswell.

KAG,

I agree with what you have said. Certainly about times changing and the need to change ideas/opinions/advice along with it. My post is purely tailored to my situation. Integrated could of even been a good shout with Oxford when I was 18, the sponsored type ratings were still happening, the course was alot cheaper than it is now, BA were recruiting from the graduates etc.. (that's not to say I would nessesarily be an airline pilot now, but there were better opportunitys I think).

So for my situation, flight training at 18 years old may have been better than going to university, but that's not to say I regret it. I have a good degree to fall back on, and it may open me up to better/different career opportunities in the future. I also have changed alot since university, it taught me more about myself than architecture which was a great experience.

Having said that, it is true that in the same way a CPL won't guarantee you a job as an airline pilot, these days a degree in architecture (or any subject) will not guarantee you a job in that field either. Master degrees (another year, another few thousand pounds) will stand you in better stead. Even then there are thousands of jobless people out there with a master degree.

It is wrong to assume that the supply of qualified professionals will always outnumber the demand for staffing only applies to pilots. It exists in almost every profession.

I'm not trying to put anyone off a degree, as you have said KAG, things are constantly changing, and it requires us to change our options. I'm glad I did my degree, but maybe doing one these days in the UK, with the rising fee's (9K a year tuition, not including maintenance loans!), will mean Student debt won't fall much short of the money you'd spend going modular.

Its just important to remember that it is still very difficult to get a job as a graduate (from someone who knows). Many people (usually people who don't have a degree), seem to think that having a degree is an easy ticket into a professional job.

“Having said all that, I certainly became a better rounded person from completing a degree. I think you mature alot in many ways by going to university, so in many ways that life experience may be quite valuable”

My dad would say the same about shoveling 5 ton of coal a day.


Mickey

“ So we have experienced pilots without job, or even worse: experienced pilot paying to work, but 100% of the wannabees getting jobs. That a perfect world we have to admit after having read your post and your observations.”

I’m not saying the world smells of roses but we have just come off the back of the easiest time in history to get a airline job. As any tom dick or harry was being hired with 200 hours. However the market has changed and the historical equilibrium has returned.

Where I work (FI at CPL school) people get hired because they can bring something to the table. Unfortunately too many of the 200 hour wannabes who have “lowered themselves” and got an instructor ticket aren’t able to do that. They have no taildragger experience and don’t appear to have any interest in GA. I also suspect their CVs don’t do much for the people who hire and fire in the airline world either.

Recently the boss hired someone because the website needed updating and he was a website designer. Another chap got hired because he was always there and when we needed someone he was in the right place and the right time.

In the last 6 months we have lost approx. 50% of our instructors to the airlines. Why this is I don’t know but I suspect its because there CV stand out a bit more than the other 200 hour CPL/IR who think that the world owes them a living.

@KAG

I concede your point. It is very important to temper enthusiasm with realism. And while hard work often makes up for a lack of outright ability, it's essential that somebody who wishes to commit to a particular career path does a lot of research about the industry and themselves. Pprune can help with the former, a pilot aptitude test with the latter.

@coffin corner

I completely agree with the gist of your advice. Nobody ought to embark on a programme of commercial flying training without doing a trial flying lesson (and ideally a full PPL) and gaining a Class I Medical beforehand. It's what I did.


I didn't go into huge detail in my original response, which is why my advice was miconstrued. My fault :).

There are pros and cons to gaining a university education. There is also value in doing a 9-5 job for a few years to get some life experience and have a fallback. And as Mickey says, there is always the FI route for weeding out the generation who would never have the aptitude or drive to become an airline pilot but for the 200 hour job oppotunities of late. All things considered, at Omlaaay's age I would probably be aiming for the military or FI route.

Mickey Kaye

Ouch, that must be devastating, may I ask why he lost it?

I'd go further and say that with the incredible rise in uni fees, the path of doing a degree and then going into flying training that so many of us followed is now only open to a priviledged minority. Most young people and their family cannot now afford to finance both. I always was an advocate of going to uni and making career/life decisions after a few years spent growing up(ish), but not anymore. Going into flying with a £30k uni debt? You are better off getting into a useful trade like plumbing, earning the cash for 3 years and then being in a position to finance some flying.

Financing a flying course is difficult enough for most people these days. Financing a degree ontop of that is almost impossible. It's a shame.:(

Flying Dream
 

If you have to ask that question then you don't have the burning yearning desperate flying urge to get you through the bad times

Get yourself a decent degree, earn the money, fly for fun

Don't rip your heart out for something your not sure about, it would be like marrying a woman because she likes the same dogs as you

I have been flying for forty five years and recently retired. It worked for me but only because I couldn't concieve doing else