What is wrong with everyone?
 

Hi.
I've been reading through these forums for the past few years on and off, and each time i do i tend to find myself thrown into a world of unbelievable resentment towards the airline industry, and, anyone about to enter into it.
You don't have to be a genius to work out that the industry has suffered, and is still suffering hard from the recession; and that odds of employment a couple of years ago sharply dropped to a figure which would make anyone who entered into flight training in 2007/2008 lose a fair deal of sleep over their future employment prospects.
You also don't have to be a genius to realise that £80,000 is alot of money to "invest" into ones future ,and I'm not denying it is a huge financial risk entering into training without a guaranteed job at the end. Obviously everyone is different; some people will have the money to put upfront, others will have to secure it to a property etc. but for god sake, have some respect for them. It seems to me that the people replying to alot of the threads are either people who wern't able to make it onto a course, or who cannot qualify for the amount needed to fund their training, and it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't make it due to their cynicism and general bad attitude towards the industry itself.
it's no secret that FTO's are out there to take your money, they're a business, but not everything they do is a conspiracy against you.
I suppose my overall point is fairly simple. If you want to become a pilot, then do it. work hard and take the risk. I weighed the options, and decided to go ahead with my training. If you don't want to become a pilot, then don't train, and certainly don't go around the 'wannabe' forums complaining about the costs and conspiracies of FTO to steal you of time and money, because it's a waste of everyones time.


Thanks.

I have to agree to an extent, I've never wanted to do anything but fly and i've worked hard over the years to save the money to allow me to go and do my flight training which i had always thought would be an integrated course.
Although due to the wealth of experience and knowledge of some of the guys on here i decided there was no rush to spend 100k on a 14 month course based on the current climate but to go ahead at a slower pace with a modular course with the intention of being ATPL'd up in 2012 with no debt and maybe some tokens left over for a type rating if i'm lucky enough.

So i agree with you from the point of view that if you want it go for it but i'm greatful for the points of view and advice of so many on the site which helped me make my overall decision.

I apply the philosophy that you treat other people how you would want treated yourself.

So as I want people to tell me if there is a high chance of me screwing up my life financally for years to come I will continue putting my view forward.

most pilots will be out of the rat race after 2-3 years when they will discover they have to:

relocate for a job, look for a job for 1-2 years, pay to work, build time, give up 9-5 jobs, no family life, pay more money for training, rating, pay for selection tests, pay more and more to stay current, have a bad life, wake up at 3 am, fly at night, fly in the cold,...

did you know that 50% of privat pilot give up flying after 4-5 years!

how many give up with a CPL?

Totally agree, with mad_jock

WWW described wannabe's recently as a Wannabe Zombie Army. Its very fitting. A few of us on here post with experience, I myself started training in 2000 and when 9/11 collapsed the industry in 2001, I will never forget having to be honest and putting the 'brakes on' both my enthusiasm and my chosen future and returning to a day job that 18 months previous, had decided I was ready to move on from!

In 2010, I have been made redundant from a large UK airline - along with 120 other B757/B767 and B737 rated pilots, most of us with all types. I've been very lucky, I found employment very quickly and as a wake up to wannabes, i'm joining a UK airline that already has a hold pool of pilots that have passed the selection process, but who are inexperienced and untype-rated! They are all still in the hold-pool!

I wouldn't want to step on anyones dream but realism has to play a huge part, the training world in itself is a mine field and on these pages you have access to people such as myself and mad_jock who are doing the job on a daily basis and are more aware than the average wannabe and flight training organisation's commercial department what the scoop is. The fact is Scoot43, at the moment, you will hear the stark reality of what is going on and wannabe's don't like it!

I've proved it - there is no place in the present industry for zero experienced frozen ATPL holders (unless you want to pay even more...), but the Wannabe Zombie Army keep marching on...

JB

Zombies keep marching on
 

Dont they just - and most of them think they will be lucky and land the dream job - its unbelievable. I know that the lottery says you have to be in it to win it but all that money and effort will not open doors for you. Sadly the current climate means a distinct lack of jobs and I know of one airline that has two thousand cv's!! Its a very long queue.

I could not agree more with this post, there is also plenty of bitter procrastination on these forums which causes things to seem even more grim! However there is much truth on these forums, but I often feel that you need to work in the industry in some capacity to differentiate the bs from the truth. If you want to trainand become a Pilot sit down and figure out a way to do it, its still acheievable to a hard working individual without getting into stacks of debt. The European labour courts, a future national scandal along with supply and demand will see an end to the madness eventually or so we hope!

No it is not negativity, it is reality!
I think some of the "negative" posts are just to make people aware - it is a long and hard road, and maybe you should consider a cheaper option then the £100.000 Zero to Bankrupt Hero, as to many people are naive, and without proper foundation for what they start.

Be prepared to keep your ratings, do other work for few years, and maybe dont expect the golden gates to open straight away.
Have a sober plan, still this will not secury you anything, but at least it can help you to avoid complete ruin!

For me it seems to many want to get into a shiny jet straight away, maybe more should lower they initial expections a bit more, and maybe get some more life experience first!

Be prepared to loose the money the training will cost you, and the money to keep yourself current! And maybe the upturn will come in the end, maybe it won't, we never know.
But now all can see, nothing around! Maybe next year!

I respect this forum greatly for the insight it provides into the current state of the market, but the way it often descends into infant school tit for tat simply highlights the maturity of those contributing and for me, thats what i don't understand about this forum especially as its for wannabe pilots.....

Everyone knows its rubbish out there, but there is a way to discuss this in a mature manner, there is no need for personal, overtly blunt sentiments. Yes be direct but also be respectful of people's individual situations.

Yes anyone who blindly signs up to a £100k training contract in the current market clearly hasn't researched enough and is a fool but thats their own stupidity.

However, for those that still want to do this as a career contributors should have faith that they will go about their training in a calm, financially controlled manner. If they don't, based on all that they read on here, then they are naive beyond belief.

All i'm saying is yes its negative at the moment, but some positivity wouldn't go a miss from time to time. And before anyone jumps down my throat in saying there 'isn't anything to be positive about', lets all just remember that this is and always has been a cyclical industry. And if people are mature enough to post on here, meet them with mature replies.

All the best to all.

Regards

Concorde 14.

So you don't have a problem with what we say now. Just the way we say it?

So we now have to be fluffy feely and respect your thin skin?.

Once your flying the line your not going to get that.

Whats this bollocks these days with youngster that if they don't like what your saying to them they say your not respecting them and your being immature. Is it a deflection method which is taught at school. Just face facts we don't respect you, couldn't give a toss if your ego is bruised.

So if you read a post which disagrees with your opinion and you feel disrespected. Dry your eyes nobody really gives a toss.

I think a stark realisation is needed. Not just on this thread, but all over this place (apart from the Flight Testing section - no one seems to be bothered there):ok:

You're talking to someone who is going through training as we speak, and I admit this is NOT and in NO WAY NEAR the time to start training further than a PPL.
I had a choice to go to university AND train, don't go to university train or don't train at all. At the time, the first option was the most appealing - and I bit into that apple...

Nearly two years into the course and I hold a PPL and have done my ATPLs, due to start CPL in June. At this relaxed pace, I should hold a fATPL and a BA(Hons) near the end of 2011.

Do I really think this will get me right hand seat? Maybe in a car.

I don't think, within the next 4 years, that any of this is going to change. Yes, I will hold a degree and all the necessary licences - but no airline will give a :mad:. I'm a low hours pilot, so what?

Back to my point. People like WWW need to say what they're saying. If not, half the wannabes on this forum (like me) would be lulled into a false sense of security. I've heard it all before, "By the time we're finished, the market will be gagging for new pilots" Yeah...whatever... I probably could afford the rest of my training if I had a penny for every time someone has said that one to me!*

After all, if none of us noobs were around to start these "OMG OMG OMG!!! there's a light at the end of the tunnel!!" threads, then people such as mad-jock and WWW would have no need to tell us the grim truth of this industry.

I honestly think that they're trying to help us, and anyone who decides against their advice could be classed as a fool.

But hey! Eventually somebody, somewhere will need a pilot!





*Obviously I couldn't. Unless, of course, the training cost me like...8 of these so called pennies...

Ah....a lovely reply to further illustrate my point. Thank you.

Regards

Concorde 14

Enjoy your warm milk when mummy tucks you up in bed Concorde

Lt. Goose - I'd be interested if you expanded slightly on the education/flight training route you are on. It sounds interesting and I'd like to learn more about this growing route.



Its commentary and Private Messages like this which keeps me performing this role over the years. There is a relentless and well funded propaganda machine spinning a pro-training message to Wannabes. The Flight Training Industry and the Employers all have a vested interest in keeping an oversupply of new pilots. Against this slick, funded wall of spin there's not much outside of PPRuNe that is willing to tell Wannabes the truth without spin.

Hence in 2005 I was on here telling Wannabes that this was a Golden Age for Wannabes and that CTC was the mutts nuts and Integrated was the best way to grab a jet job fast! But by summer 2007 I was being labelled a gloom and doom monger armchair economist pessimist for warning of a house price crash, major recession and airline bankruptcy. When the facts change then so does my opinion. The 'industry' though will ALWAYS tell you its the ideal time to train. They're bastards like that.

You are a commodity to these people. Wannabes are often young (under 30) and haven't (sorry to patronise) had many lessons in how the big bad world actually works. That. And that alone is what sparks me into pumping out posts here. Trust me, it doesn't make me popular, make my life easier or gain me anything other than the occasional word of thanks.

At the moment I'm turning more bearish than I have been for the past 3 months. I think Greece is going to turn into a contagion, UK credit rating is going to loose its AAA status and a double dip is in the pipeline.

The Olympics could be quite a low key affair next time.


WWW

Sure thing!

It's basically run between Cabair, that reputable training organisation :ok: and Bucks New University (not my first choice uni, but the only one to run this type of course at the time).

As quoted from the university:

"The degree in air transport is designed for those students who wish to obtain a recognised degree in air transport management with a view to pursuing a career in the airline and airport industry. It is particularly aimed at those wishing to qualify as commercial pilots. The BA (Hons) Air Transport with Commercial Pilot Training degree reflects the changes inherent in the dynamic aviation industry and prepares students with the skills and knowledge required to work within the aviation field."

I think they're beating around the bush. If you can't get a job as a pilot, do something in the industry to bide your time is what I think they mean!:ugh:. I'm not sure how well this will ACTUALLY work though, but that's life.

To break the course down, you spend the first year at university campus in High Wycombe... Doing assignments as well as training for your PPL (15hrs only). At the end of that year you buzz off to Florida for a month to complete your PPL. The next year is spent at Cabair's Bournemouth or Cranfield locations for your ATPLs for 6 months - pretty boring stuff. Then, once again you're shipped off to the US of A to hours build as so many do before returning to Wycombe Air Park or Bournemouth to gain your CPL. By this time it's two years after starting your course and you're going back to uni to do the serious work!
After that year, you do your IR and MCC in the summer with Cabair and voilà you've got a job! (Or so they say)


Back to the point of the thread... ummmm....likee....err.... I hope the economic situation gets better? Yeah. That'll do.:cool:

WWW

I'm not a financial man, can you explain the difference between a bull and a bear?

Cheers

Concorde

TBH, I think there is a class of people who just like baiting other individuals for the sake of it. They like lighting the the blue touch paper and retiring. Pesonally I enjoy watching a good online scrap taking place, and these pages provide ample opportunities to do it. Some of the blunt comments directed at individuals have me in stitches, yes I know the p in pprune stand for professional but some of the some are real classics. Keep up the good work boys.

bit of oil in to the fire
 

I'm not posting very often - usually when I need to ask something as you would expect from someone doing his/her ATPLs...

... yes industry is not in great shape (I work in it last six years)
... yes everyone wants to be pilot
... yes prospects are not great

... but it seems to me that all these negative comments are coming from "want to be FO" trying scare away any possible competition
... from FOs who spent fortune for their training (as I am doing) and are too worried of any possible competition as they do not feel secure in their current position...

cheers FrankO

I think what people are trying to say is, based on experience - sure go for it, but don't expect to be get a job straight away as an FO on a big shiny jet.

Make sure you can manage to survive for few years after you have your CPL and IR, because it migth take you 3 - 5 years before you even get a sniff at a proper job.

On the other hand, if you have more money then sense, you probably would not be on these boards seeking advice anyway!

There will be jobs, but not to many for low hours newbies, but where there is a will there is a way.

I have seens flight schools, where the instructors are still working after few years now, that is a bad sign for jobs, as they normally are regulary fed to airlines as they improve their experience and hours. Just not happening now, thats not scaring anyone, thats a fact.

Accept that you might not be able to work as a professional full time pilot for a few years after finished training, if you can survive that, I guess you will be fine! If you have to much debts, you will not be around when the upturn comes, because you will not have been able to stay current, or /and not able to pay for TR if required with job offer!

WWW does not need to fear any of us newbies, nothing for him to gain by BS everybody!
Pretty paranoid to believe there is a conspiracy on PPRUNE to scare away potenial newbie threaths, think you might have been watching to much X - files! :E

Mad Jock
You do seem pretty bitter about the industry but all industries are ****** right now. If you dont like it go do something else and stop whining. WWW it is good to warn people against the marketing bs but same again stop bleating on about it. Perhaps you didnt do as well as you hoped because of your whiney attitude and inability to cope in a crisis

No far from it Paul

I am quite happy doing what I do and I get payed a reasonable amount to do it as well.

And inability to cope in a crisis yep thats what airlines do on Command courses and all LPC/OPC's they put people who can't handle crisis in charge of the hardware.

H'mm so I get accused one min of being blunt and disrespectful then the next of whining. You can't have it both ways.

Or is this method number 2 of dealing with confrontation in schools now if you don't get your own way.

1. Acuse other person of being immature and not respecting you.

2. Acuse other person of being a moaning whining git and make out that they are a wet plonker who rolls up into a ball at the first sign of a challange.

Do they teach you this is some banker Buisness studies course which the kids take as an easy option along aside media studies.

To be honest less than 10% of the people posting on wannbies will ever actually fly a multicrew aircraft. Out of that I reckon its going to less than 5% who actually make a career out of it these days. And you might say its all very well me sitting here preaching with no debts.

Opps is that last statement whining, disrespectful or immature?

JohnnyPharm
 

Bull/Bear markets Market trend

Some hilarious stuff here - especially from those wannabe's who think that 'fluffy and respect' will come along with a frozen ATPL and zero experience!

I totally agree with mad_jocks comment regarding rates of failure, the chances of never making the position of FO is greater than ever but if you do, for the first 12 months of your career you'll be classed as a 'training risk' - failure rate is high. You will be judged and given professional critism permanently and you are entering an industry where pilots are regarded as nothing more than a 'necessary cost'. The respect levels between Pilots and Management is at an all time low!

For those on second careers, this industry will shock you! For those who have never been in the world of work, well, it sounds like it'll be a struggle for some...

I tend to agree with Madjock's posts. To call him immature because of his fact-of -the -matter posting style is actually immature in itself!

What is exactly with all these, "don't hurt my feelings when you post...or I'll go tell mommy" posts? Since when has political correctness invaded Pprune? I am curious, was this type of "don't hurt my feelings / sugarcoat everything" attitude taught in schools during the last decade? Sad. This seems to be the same attitude in some American schools where wins and losses in sports are banned for children's sporting events because the losers may get their feelings hurt, every game must end in a tie. Sorry, but the real world does not work like that.

Scoot, I don't want to sound mean, but you ought to grow a pair.

Uncle Wiggily, I'm sorry but you don't sound mean, infact you've just come across as fairly immature yourself. You don't have to adopt madjocks approach of "to the point" because it doesnt work for you. If you're telling me to 'Grow a pair' because of the reasons you've just made, i.e the world is spoon fed and everything needs sugar coating, then i'm afraid you need to re read my post. It isn't about 'wanabees' not having their feelings hurt, it's about people like you not coming across so judgmental to them. But hey, at least you provide us all with a good laugh, and a fine example of what not to turn out like.

LT.Goose
"To break the course down, you spend the first year at university campus in High Wycombe... Doing assignments as well as training for your PPL (15hrs only). At the end of that year you buzz off to Florida for a month to complete your PPL. The next year is spent at Cabair's Bournemouth or Cranfield locations for your ATPLs for 6 months - pretty boring stuff. Then, once again you're shipped off to the US of A to hours build as so many do before returning to Wycombe Air Park or Bournemouth to gain your CPL. By this time it's two years after starting your course and you're going back to uni to do the serious work!
After that year, you do your IR and MCC in the summer with Cabair and voilà you've got a job! (Or so they say)"

This course sounds absoloutly identical to the course on offer from PTC B.s.C in airline transport operations along with a frozen ATPL at the end.

On another note i completely agree with the first post on this thread,if i had listened to all this negativity and crap from the likes of madjock and WWW i never would have fulfilled me dreams of becoming a pilot i would consider myself lucky as i was accepted by ryanair 2 months after completeing my training.

they have the mind set of: look at us we are captains now lets just berate all the newbies trying to get into our industry,just not nice people at all and probobly very WEAK people who feel better about themselves and more powerfull when they berate new people in the industry at a lower standing than themselves. pathetic!

:mad:You lot don't seem to realise the nature of the beast.

Pilots are payed to be judgemental.

We do it hundreds of times in the space of a days flying.

What you are asking for is the people you want to get the information out of to completely go against the grain of there very being. Which to be honest isn't going to happen for some snotty nosed ppl puke.

As I said before we don't respect you because you haven't earned it. As far as we are concerned you have no rights, no opinions that matter. Your ideas and views of the way the industry works are that of a 5 year old that wants an icecream but dad won't get them one.

The immature arguing may very well work in an office enviroment. You ain't in one of them, you will get eaten alive if you start trying to play by those rules. You are going to work in a hard operational enviroment which has no room for fluffy pampering because peoples lives are on the line, the most important one being your own.

If you want fluffy go and play on the OAA forums.

How very un PC Jock! I agree with you 100% Lol.

Oh Mad Jock you do give us all a laugh with your rantings...

Perhaps if you actually had some more sleep instead of logging onto this forum at stupid-o-clock you would be a lot more calm and relaxed instead of spouting off like a mad preacher.....

I agree experience provides you with envious amounts of insider knowledge, it does not, however, give you the right (or we as you say, who is this 'we' by the way) to dismiss the opinions of others who aren't in your 'fortunate' position....

Regards

Concorde 14

I thnik you mean 'normal working hours for those in the airline world'.

Gents, from someone who has been there and done it.

When you cock things up in the sim, or the real aircraft (and trust me, you will, whether in a PA-28 or a 737) the first and most important lesson you need to learn is humility.

When you turn the wrong way in a procedure, leave yourself hot and high on approach, or mis-identify the failed engine in the sim, expect plenty of constructive criticism, some of it quite blunt. If you can’t handle that kind of advice (and I have trained with people who couldn’t), it will get noticed very quickly, and your flying career is likely to be short.

If you think WWW and Mad Jock are a bit harsh for your tastes, just wait until your first OPC debrief at 'stupid-o-clock' . . .

Well, it seems somebody heard you, have a look at Portugal: AA- today...
Good thing is Europe getting more competitive.
Other than that, future doesn't seem great...
However Asia, middle east, south america are not in the same boat...

Without wishing to divert attention from the main topic here, there is no way the UK would lose its AAA gold standard rating, so i will have to disagree with you there WWW and would be interested to learn on what basis you predict this?

The City of London still remains the financial centre of the world and the Government will do whatever it takes to maintain this, losing AAA status would be an irrecoverable severe blow for the UK financial market and will simply not be allowed to happen.

Regards

Concorde 14

I am not sure what the government can do, apart from creating more debts to reimbourse the previous debts.

However I tend to agree with you, I don' t see UK loosing its AAA status, UK not having more debts than many other rich countries.

Economy is not off topic, aviation being completely linked to economy.

In europe, and even in north america (but Canada?), it is definitely not a good time to pay for training.

What do you mean stupid o'clock? The sun is always up when I post. ;)

And if you can't deal with "you made a right :mad: of that what did you do wrong" then move on and fly another 3 sectors your in the wrong game.

What are you concorde some sort of HR person wanting to make the change to working for a living?

By your posts on here you be more suited to the HR department than flying the line.

How you going to deal with


"Why the :mad: did you divert there you :mad:"
"What do you mean its in the tech log? Thats the whole schedual :mad: for the next two days"
"No I have looked at the FTL's and you are legal to operate after a 21 hour duty with reduced rest of 11 hours I will have to report you if you refuse to do it"

All of the above is Captain ****e most of it solved with two words.

"what do you mean your ill, there is no cover get your arse in now"
"you made a right :mad: of that, have a word with yourself before the chief pilot does next time you do it"
"you really are :mad: useless"
And thats not even going down the route of some of the lines bullying Captains use.

And the one that even Neil Armstrong can't jig a reply up to

"With someone of your experence I expected better" Thankfully never been poked at myself but a killer as a kick off line to a debrief, be you 250 hours or 20000 hours.

And were do you find that I don't have the right? Every country's ANO I have operated under not only is it a right but it is also my duty to ignore the opinion of people talking ****e.

Its no secret that 9 days ago Moodys credit rating agency said the UK had moved "substantially" closer to losing AAA status.

According to them the U.K. is likely to spend 7 percent of revenue servicing debt this year and 9 percent in 2013, rising to almost 12 percent under the adverse scenario.

Financing costs above 10 percent put countries outside of the AAA category into a so-called debt reversibility band, the size of which depends on the ability and willingness of nations to reduce their debt burden by raising taxes or reducing spending.

Its all going to hinge on the growth rate for next year. I think the Government is overestimating the figures. Darling revised them down a little at lunchtime. I think he's still too optimistic. House Prices are a very good proxy for the wider economy. They started falling agin in Jan and Feb and Easter is usually the absolute peak for house sales - but the estate agents I know are still struggling and every time I go past the offices are empty of buyers.

We shall see. Hopefully I'm wrong and I can go and dig up my gold stash:eek:


WWW

Oh i apologise Mad Jock, you clearly are judge, jury and executioner on all things aviation related....

However, you have served your purpose in illustrating my point on all that is wrong with this forum (aggressive responses to newbies, immature arguments, sarcasm, boundless negativity etc). Seriously guys, its a discussion forum chill out!!

I wish all of those genuine financially astute wannabes the best of luck and i sleep easy at night knowing that we will make it despite the 'statisics' thrown around on here because we have passion, commitment and a sensible head on our shoulders.

For those of you fitting the above description i look forward to flying with you in the near future.

Regards

Concorde 14

I'm going to go all Jeremy Clarkson and state 'The UK will not lose its coveted AAA status & will do whatever it takes to protect it'....if it does i will eat my own hair!!

Moving substantially closer to losing it does not mean its a dead cert. In addition other countries are facing the same risk too, namely the US, Germany, Spain.

Regards

Concorde 14

OK, you win Scoot 43. Everybody out there listen carefully.....you just need to believe in yourself and make it happen. Don't let the meanies in the world tell you that you can't do it! Follow that rainbow and wish upon the shooting star. You are special!

Come do let us know. Do you work in HR? I have 10 quid on this with one of the FO's.

He reckons you are just a bit of girls blouse with no heavy industry experence. I reckon you work in HR and proberly have a degree in it as well.