Tommy 737
 

He is starting with FR and paying the 30 odd grand. He is going to be on 35 euros an hour till line checked then he will be on 56 per hour till the next bracket and so and so on.
The type rating will be paid off soon if he is shrewd. If he performs well over the next 3 to 4 years he WILL be up for command. If FR are still doing well and he wants to stay at FR, he WILL stay.
If he shrugs his shoulders and says sod this and doesnt turn up to East Mids, Stockholm, or Amsterdam for the over priced(by my own admission) type rating, will he be sitting in the LHS of the 737 in 4 to 5 years? Not a hope in hell!
He is making his move. Is it the right one? At the moment probably. After paying for the type rating and all the rest of it, he will enjoy working for FR, that I am sure of.


:ugh:

They used to have similar schemes in the USA - then there was a fatal accident.

Due pilot error or not - it was leaked the FO was paying to be in the right hand seat - it is now not "accepted" within the industry that people should pay to do a professionals job which people should be paid for.

It starts and ends with us as pilots. If we say no as a group then they would have to pay pilots. Those who say yes to it ruin terms and conditions for us all, and it is a downwards spiral from there. Terms and conditions will only get worse because of you. If you think you are a professional pilot don't do it - have more self respect. However, nowadays people do not consider pilots professionals, nor do we deserve respect as a profession whilst people carry on doing this.

To stick to the facts I have:
I know lots of pilots who paid for line training - not one flies the type they paid for line training on.
Two ended up paying for a 2nd type rating (once the other airline realised they could rip them off)
Another two know left flying all together.

I deal with hundreds of reference requests a year, those who wait it out have got the better jobs those who pay to work are still stuggling :suspect:

If he's good enough yes - however there are hundreds of weak pilots out there - more than good ones.

Re Jack Brown's :
No TSA required for this, but you technically need a visa.

Tommy first off I don't have a problem with a true SSTR like Easy used to have. Second of all, I am a changed man, I think joining Ryanair is the best thing a newly qualified pilot can possibly do straight out of training. I genuinely do. Financially at the very least. If you have the opportunity then seize it, freeze it and own it. And I love flying, I love everything about it - I just hate the industry with a passion. But I really do love flying, how can one not relative to the alternative?

The implication is these schemes are only adopted by the young fly-hungry brigade, no so.. the last four guys we had for recurrent were all late 20 to mid 30s. They had re-mortgaged their houses and decided to take a change in career, many with very supportive wives or partners. Some smooth sales person has sold them a vision and is happy to wash their hands of these guys once they do the SSTR as the responsibility for the actual " Line training" timing is up to the "airline partners". Very often these guys sit around at their own expense waiting for sectors, once they do the OCC they can't really pull out without huge financial loss. As employed pilots we can't stamp this practice out as there are too many back handers and "special arrangements" in place, what we can do is try and force some honesty into the process, a contradiction I know!
The "traditional SSTR" with Easy, Ryan, Wizz, Jet2 etc is somewaht regulated and that is precisely why it is difficult to get on these schemes.

This is like some sort of Monty Python sketch. I would contend the hours aren't great for the payment, and then you're sat jobless whilst the next guy in line does his hours, and then the next, ad infinitum... So yes, you do get to fly for a while, but then you sit with a ticking rating whilst everyone else piles in behind.

"and so I would rarther pay and fly and get paid for flying than not pay for your rating and therefore flying but also getting paid not to fly!"

Regardless of what you'd prefer to do, paying to fly isn't being paid to fly. In fact, disregard as I can't decipher this...


This is pure marketing, which no doubt probably nets you a lot of applicants. So, by taking the course all the applicants are guarantees LHS in three to five years? Have you got any statistics to back this up? If there are no statistics to show the career path of previous candidates, then I'd would take this insinuation with a bucket of salt. Furthermore, I'd be absolutely astounded by any credible evidence to back up this claim in the current economic climate.

It sounds like you work at FR and are obviously keen to see the herds of young hopefuls keep on coming. i can't blame you for that, but back up your statements...

Any evidence??
 

Journey man,
Can I ask you what evidence you have to back up YOUR statements?? I have been talking to RYR guys for the last year at least, and not one of them has complained of having to take a back seat after line training to make way for new cadets!
Yes you can expect a decrease in hours around christmas time, but which outfit doesn't do that?? Apart from that hours are good and strong .
"The hours arn't great for the payment" Well let me put it to you this way as you clearly don't have a clue what I was doing whilst waiting for my TR....... Working up to my knees in pig crap! For a nice 6 pounds an hour!!
Now you make your own decisions in life and let me tell you, this one was an easy one!!

OK - so, where do all the pilots go? The courses are oversubscribed, yet airlines are laying off pilots. That's a conundrum, right? So where are all these eager pilots paying for line training going? Do you think they're all being given a slap on the back and a "welcome to the team!" from the MD over tea and biscuits? :E

This is not a debate, it is a fact that if you pay for line training you are a total F:mad:ing idiot, you are paying to do the job you want, where will you go after? Where will the guy whose job you are doing go? They are starting command line training courses that you pay for!!!!! What The F:mad:ck. Seriously just spend about a minute thinking about what is going on here, what industry are you trying to get into? You want to skip ahead of the guys who have worked hard to get to where they are only to find someone skipping ahead of you in the same way once you have paid your money to pretend to be an airline pilot for a few months. DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!! Yes I have a job and this does not and will not effect me, for now anyway but it will trickle down through every part of this industry. I want to get paid well for what I do, I have worked hard to get where I am, I hate that some p:mad:icks do this, you are shooting yourself in the foot no question. If you cant get a job tough sh:mad:it, dont f:mad:ck it up for everyone else just so you can sit in an A320 with some crappy outfit and feel good about yourself for a few days until you realise because of all the **** and bad feelings you get from the guys whose mates jobs you are taking that you are being a complete moron. If you pay for line training you will not get a job at the end you will just put more people out of work.

Journey Man
 

I am a pilot and not a statician. What I said in my previous post is based on what I have SEEN and based and what I can SEE. As regards command upgrades FR can't get enough captains at the moment.
Practically all of Skyeurope(captains) have arrived I believe, and I heard a good few Globespan(captains) crew are on their way too!

Marketing? :ugh: If Ryanair never employed another cadet again and kept the crew as is, do you think I would lose much sleep?


P.S. Most applicants do not get an assessment, and most who do, do not make it past the assessemt phase! Check the Ryanair interview and assessments thread and have a look at Allioths post( near the bottom) Hope it helps to BACK this particualr point up:ok:

SloppyJoe are you talking about any company in particular??
I know that Easy will not guarentee winter work, and I also know that the Thomas Cook cadets taken on last summer have not been extended to the winter season. BUT the Ryanair guys do seem to keep flying after their TR and also through the hard times of winter. When I post it is always with regard to RYR I dont know anything about what the plans of Easy etc are, and if what your saying is right then yes its a harsh deal.
I decided on RYR because although we arn't actually signed to any contracts I did the back ground work to see what did actually happen after the Line Training and were we just dropped....... 100% said they kept flying and have continued to do so.
Journeyman, Whos courses are over subscribed?? Eagle jet?? RYR take who they need and are not affraid to say no to the majority that DO NOT GET THROUGH THE ASSESSMENT! They have delayed TR courses as they DON'T need new F/O's! You don't just pay, turn up and have a go!:ugh:

Just read through this thread, and it seems to be getting a little confusing between paying for a TR and paying for the actual line training.

I think we can all accept that it is pretty certain that most people are now going to have to pay for their first T/R - this has been the norm for a while in one form or another - whether the airline stumped up the cash then bonded you on a reduced salary, or you stump up the cash yourself, either way you are still paying for it. However I would not condone paying for a t/r without a firm job offer at the end.

What I though this thread was about was what happened next, the line training. Totally agree that you should be PAID for this as you are then on revenue generating flights earning the airline $$$$$ therefore you should expect to be re-numerated yourself.

I thought with FR (who seem to be coming in for a lot of flack) that you paid for the t/r, but once line training, you actually got paid for that. I don't see anything wrong with that myself although I'd love to think that we would go back to the days of the airline paying for the t/r, but I doubt we will ever see those days again.

I started my training at 30, when times were amazingly good but due to taking my time and a few bad decisions along the way, I did not finish for another 4 years. That was in December last year just as it was all going wrong. Have I gone and thrown more money at it, to jump over people - NO. I'm sitting and waiting it out, working in my current job until things pick up keeping current as best I can. I've even refrained from applying to FR even though they are the only gig in town at the moment, as I don't agree with the ethics of paying to apply for a job or paying for your own uniform. The industry will pick up, but people really just need to accept that it is in a down turn and just be patient and WAIT.

It is amazing that there are 19-20 something pilots that can only see flying a jet as the be all and end all of flying a flying career. If you are serious about this as a career, then at 20 you will have 45 years flying ahead of you to make a career out of it so go and do something more interesting than sitting looking out of the window and pushing a few buttons every now and then - after a few years of doing that, it will just become another dull job. Do some REAL flying, is it really so urgent to PAY to jump the queue right now ?. Seems these guys in this situation are only doing it for the willy waving opportunities that it will bring bragging to girls down the pub or for their parents to brag about how proud they are of little Johnny down at the golf club.

If ANYONE is worried about loosing face, then this is NOT the right career for you - just look into the recent history of many Far Eastern airlines and all the accidents that they have had due to not "loosing face". Who give's a flying f:mad:k what your friends think, if they are real friends they will be understanding and supportive as should your family and realise that times are not good at the moment, so it is a matter of sitting and waiting.

Sit and wait guys, sit and wait. Your time will come.

;)

So here in Greece we have new pilots that have been buying Type Rating, they are knowing that when they get 300 hrs they can maybe work at Olympic, because they are Greek. Problem is they cannot get 300 hrs! even local small athens based airlines that used to do this scheme have been stopped. In mean time high cost agency pilots, where Company is asking for min 1000hrs are working for more than local Captains. These agency guys will get pushed out when new pilots available, but there are lots on non-Greek A320 guys with 300hrs which Olympic will not take. So what is point? point is if you going to buy Line Training hours make sure you know where you go after your hours, in current climate, probably nowhere as most airlines allow any nationality pilot and local guys cannot get work. Beware.

Sadly, some pilot hopefuls out there still think that some of these dodgy line training schemes will lead to their dreams. And all the pprune threads under the sun will do nothing to divert their gaze. There's going to be a lot of guys wasting a lot of money over the next couple of years on line training that will come to nothing. As there has been already.

But I would like to offer some optimism here. Eventually, finally, things will change and change slightly for the better. Eventually there will be enough stories of failure out there that people will realise that paying for line training from these dodgy companies does not = flash pilot, great flying job, great pay, the women dropping at your feet etc. Like most things, it will take a few years, but eventually, after much heartbreak, many remortgaged houses, many wasted daddy's cheques and many dusty 200 jet hour log books, the penny will drop and people will begin to realise that its a fools game to pay for any more training without the guarantee of a proper job.

Even the rich cannot keep paying to fly indefinitely! Even daddy will realise eventually that he's throwing his money down the drain!

When that time comes some balance will be restored and it will be a better industry for us all. Wannabes and 'Professional Pilots' alike!

Now I am a realist! Paying for initial training is here to stay. Paying for type ratings is here to stay. Maybe even some forms of paying for line training will stay. Daddy paying for the whole thing is here to stay. But wannabe pilots (and daddy,) will have to understand that there comes a time where you have to draw that line, and not fork out any more cash without a sensible chance of a job.

that's the problem. Line training means flying with passengers.

why an airline should pay a pilot when a pilot pay to fly with PAX?

please choose your option:

Line training

500 hours for 30k
1000h for 50k
2000h for 80k
3000h for 125k
VAT not included.

for over 3000h, please contact us. We have already a waiting list, so book asap.



Coming soon: Captain line training after our 3000h program.
(please don't call us, you will be informed very soon)

go around flaps15,

I admit, it wasn't very creative to ask for any credible evidence aside from heresay to back up your post, and if so I apologise - however I still feel your post reinforces the impression that the only way to achieve LHS in a 737 is through a pay-to-play scheme. No offence intended, only wanted to challenge your assertion of the above.


tommyg737,

Asking for some facts to back up a statement is not in itself making a statement. Secondly, a little bit of comprehension will go a long way...
Then that would be an example of a course being over subscribed. I love the last sentence! They are mean aren't they? :E

No offense taken. I have made my point. It's(FR) the only gig in town at the moment, as regards paying for a rating(if thats what you are going to do). As for Eaglejet, Alteon, Global whatever its called........ Forget it.
Comparing FR with these schemes is not like for like. FR pay you after the type rating, these other schemes DO NOT.

sepilnig
 

O god Jrny mn u hav 2 pul out da speling crd dnt ya!

"Asking for some facts to back up a statement is not in itself making a statement."
I agree, but I believe that I made my point clear in the following sentence of that post.
Right enough of this jibber jabber...... I am going sledging!!

Leezyjet,
I almost had to double check to see I hadn't written your last post! My current situation is very, very similar...sitting it out in my old job waiting for the right opportunity. I will NOT go on a speculative line hours scheme. I very much hope a decent opportunity will come up, but confidence in that is waning, I'd have to admit...still I'd rather fly a desk for the rest of my life than spend another £30k without a job at the end of it.

SloppyJoe,
bit of an awkward one for me, as I agree with what you've written, but the aggressive, condescending tone and continual swearing actually undermines much of it, IMHO. Hopefully something to think on, because clearly you have something sensible to say.

My tuppence?
Personally I would be prepared to pay for an initial TR (as long as it had concrete job offer attached). This is because as someone mentioned earlier, I think it's extraordinarily naive to think that you'll get away with an absolutetly free TR ever again. That's not to say you WON'T get a free TR, they do exist, but ...well..."hens teeth" sums it up. Personally I'd treat getting a completely free TR as an absolute bonus.

I MIGHT even agree to not be paid (note the subtle difference between not being paid and paying for) for line training (as long as concrete job offer attached - although for me, this would have to be a very good job and one I'd look to hold for a long time).

What I will NOT do, is pay for a TR and/or LT on the basis that there may or may not be a job at the end. This is why (if you read my other postings) I did not move forward for the OAA/easyJet scheme.

That said...experienced pilots need to start realising that whining and pining for the "good old days of the self improver route" is pointless. I couldn't give a **** if you spent 20000 hours crop dusting to get where you are....my only concern -and you can probably take this as read for most newbies - is how do I get to where I want to be. That sounds very "me first"...well it is, because by refusing to take a job offer I change nothing...someone else will take that job instead. The endless whinging about how wonderful the old ways were, the insinuation that anyone that pays is somehow less of a pilot than someone who didn't buy their rating is both a ridiculous notion [there are both good and bad pilots that can and cannot afford a rating] and fosters a siege mentality which only serves to aide airline managers in dividing the workforce and subsequent futher reduction.

The above is not to say that the self improver route has gone, but the fact is, it is no longer the de facto route to the RHS. I would question the sanity of anyone...ANYONE who [wanting to fly commercial transport a/c ultimately] sets out to earn the pittance a newly qualified SEP FI earns for years and years, rather than go direct if the option exists. THIS is the problem, there is no point blaming people for not wanting to instruct, simply because there is another legal route open to them.

The way forward to stop these schemes - or one way at least - is to force the CAA to define a route to the RHS. As long as it's allowed by legislation to jump straight into the RHS of a MRJT with the base qualifications, then someone, somewhere will always seek to offer a route that jumps the queue. If that route is tightly defined (a la "min of 1500 hours tt to fly as crew on an A/c over 7.5 tonnes - purely as an example) then it controls the route to the RHS and levels the playing field. But then of course, someone would sell block bookings of 1500hrs, someone will have the money to pay and others that can't will whinge that "I had to do it by licking the chief pilots shoes for 12 years to earn enough..."

This is the new reality. Do not seek to blame others who find themselves caught in the maelstrom that it represents for being caught in a storm...as an industry it's up to all of us to build a shelter for them.
The new aviation world is all about trying to gain an edge, by fair means or foul. It's only our internal moral compasses (or Moral IRS in my case...:E) that dictate to what level we'll go to get that edge. However, for Moral compass swinging purposes, posts by G-SPOTs lost and Kirks Gusset are a good starting point.

Unfortunately as there is little selection in the majority of self 'sponsored' (why is it never just 'bought'?) training, be it CPL, MCC or TR, there will always be that insinuation. Many who favour buying a TR to jump ahead often make the argument that you still have to pass the exams, however getting your CPL or TR is merely a case of meeting the minimum requirements. Being selected and sponsored means that out of all the applicants, you were in the top XX%.

I think the point is that other peoples actions actually define how you get to where you want to be. Your journey, and implicated costs are decided by the general direction that other people have taken and decide to take.

Its this singular attitude of succombing to the money grabbing / profiteering on SSTR that will make your journey very expensive indeed (does it not cost the airline (e.g. EZY) around 10K for a TR and yet an SSTR is charged 30K?)