FAA to JAA
 

All comments about licence conversion!

Some excellent posts at the end of the thread (circa Feb '11)

HWB

Logging PIC FAA to JAA
 

i am in the process of converting my FAA license. i have 80+ PIC with instruction time logged beside. can i count this towards the 100 PIC required for the JAA conversion?

Hi folks.

Can I assume in these discussions I can substitute FAA CPL/IR or FAA ATPL with Any ICAO state issued licence? I'm an Australian with an Australian ATPL (not "frozen") but no multi crew time. I've got a UK passport too so I've been looking at this conversion process for a little while. It seems there is at least one place in Australia where I can sit the 14 exams the major limiting factor seems to be that at least for the UK licence I need to get my initial class one medial in Gatwick before I can be issued the actual licence. Any tips for those from down under or the states for someone in my situation?

Does IR have to be current
 

Question,

I am currently looking for a school to convert my FAA CPL and IR to JAA. Does my FAA IR have to be current for this?

And does anyone have any advice for a good school? I am just finishing up my last 7 exams (ATPL theory) so im just looking for a school to do the flying. Bristol aviation is currently nr1 on my list, any advice or experience?

I'm also doing the conversion. Already got my atpl's done.
Thinking of going to Ormond Beach (EASA) to get my SEP CPL and MEP addon and coming back to Europe for the IR.
Any thoughts on this particular school? Because it's difficult to choose with so many negative comments...
I want to do it in the US mainly because schools (Civil aviation) here in Spain and Portugal are giving me a hard time with my FAA logbook.

(If this post isn't in the right place, please let me know before erasing it without telling me anything)

Try Bristol gs. Fantastic bunch of people, got me through with no real troubles.

As far as I can remember, the ICAO IR has to be current for conversion as does the ICAO medical. Do the CPL in the UK, in UK airspace with UK RTF for what its worth. Forget some of the Florida factories.

There are some schools in Spain (one reasonably good one in Malaga) for the IR conversion. You will hear all sorts of stories on this no doubt, but it has worked for many I know on a (relative) budget. If one has a foreign MEP rating there should be no need to do a JAA MEP class rating before the IRT. The examiner will be able to test for both the IR-SPA-MEP and the MEP ratings together in most cases for a conversion case.

The CPL(A) will be training as required. For the IR it's 15 hours of which 5 have to be in the aircraft, the rest in the sim. This is feasable ONLY if you have flown in Europe before. Know the place and procedures well. The 5 hours on the aircraft route will only work for people with a modicum of time in the book, not 300 hour 'wonders'. For those that have not yet completed an ICAO IR to convert - DO NOT skimp on the foreign training!

Another thing, if you have more than 500 hours multi crew then get a letter from the foreign employer to verify this for an exemption from the MCC.

I speak as an ex JAA school Chief Flying Instructor and both JAA and FAA and DCA licence holder.

All the best, im off to fly my jet on my FAA licence...

FAA to JAA conversion
 

Yes your FAA-IR needs to be valid at the time of conversion.

As for a school, I have found a very good school in Iceland, very professional and with very decent fares, much cheaper than the UK Schools fares.

Furthermore, no problem to have your Icelandic CPL/IR converted to CAA along with your CAA-ATPL exams.

good luck.

What do you mean with "the ir must be current"?
Next February the first 6 months of my FAA IR currency will expire, and i'll enter the phase i need a safety pilot to keep it on currency.

If i'll start my conversions in April and I'll fly with a JAA instructor on a G marked airplane (maybe also spanish, i don't know yet), can i consider my FAA IR regularly current?

It's very difficoult i'll find a November airplane before february to avoid this situation. Can you guys explain me better the issue and suggest me the options i can have?

Last but not least, i'm finishing the ATPL ground school at the OAA, then i'll start to convert my licenses. do you think the Bristol Aviation is a good school where to complete my training or can be better to spend my money in some more expensive school (Flight Training Europe or Gestair)? I have PPL IR and CPL MEP FAA.

Below is an excerpt of 14 CFR Part 61.57 concerning recency of Instrument experience; it does NOT state that this needs to be done with an FAA certificated instructor or on a N-reg airplane.
Which means that all of the approaches you practice with a JAA Instructor in preparation for your IR count towards your currency.
So your FAA IR is "current" or "valid" for your JAA IR conversion.
If your FAA IR is less then 24 months old that counts as the IPC/BFR

Are you sure the FAA IR has to be current in order to do the conversion?

I know of literally tons of people who do their conversion from FAA to JAA who are far beyond any FAA IR currency

Thank you B2N2, you are right, there is no mention about the mark. I'll write to the FAA to be sure about this and also to have some paper to show in case someone could ignore this regulation

All the US regulations can be found here and you can be sure that they are up to date:
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:

JAA Medical
 

I am currently working in the Gulf with an FAA license and would like to convert to JAA. Any idea if there are JAA Medical Examiners in the area (Bahrain, Dubai .. etc)?

Yes, it does, in the UK at least. LASORS 2008 (the most up-to-date information that the UK CAA can manage) states, under 'Conversion Requirements' "These arrangements will provide a route to a JAR-FCL IR(A) qualification for the following holders of a current and valid IR issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1" (their emphasis).

It goes on to say that holders of an IR that is not current must attend an approved FTO and complete the modular IR(A) course. However, it does allow for the Head of Training to then state in writing that a full course is not necessary, in which case the Authority will 'consider' a reduction in hours. Mind you, in this financial climate, getting an FTO to vote for a reduction in training revenue is a bit like getting turkeys to vote for Christmas.

Hi

Could you tell me how was your conversion course?
How many hours for instrument conversion, how many commercial, and how many for multi engine

Having a ICAO CPL IR MULTI NIGHT, no JAA PPL, just ATPL Thoery, im wandering if its possible to convert like this:

instrument
10h FNPTII
5H MULTI
IR Skill Test with Skilltest for MEP rating

commercial
5H MULTI ( have no acess to Complex SE)
Skill test

And 1h SEP rating, so i can fly single engine, either instrument or commercialy

thank you

Not sure about converting an FAA CPL, it sounds more like doing everything over again rather than a conversion.

I would suggest get an FAA ATPL first, then convert to JAR. It's easy ( aside from the hours of study) and you're not unlikely to get a job in Europe without the ATPL flight hours anyhow.Converitng an FAA APTto JAR CPL is the way to go, and a joke in Spain.

I did my CPL flight test and IR check in Madrid a year ago. The standards there are appalling. Half the instruments in the aircraft didn’t work, so the IR check turned out being a VFR joy flight!
That was lucky as I was half pissed at the time.
I bought a bottle of orange juice mix in a grocery store and downed it for breakfast. I don’t read Spanish, but the label said something like 8% real juice—so I thought. Turned out it was 8% alcohol! I keeped my month shut and just to the flight as I had my ticket out of Madrid booked.

The CPL test, IFR check and training took a total of 14.4 hours over 3 days, and cost me 4000euro for the school and a few hundred euro for the examiner.

So, if one has a US (FAA) ATP, currently flies the 747-400, has type ratings in the 737, 747, 757, 767 and A319/320, with thousands of hours of flight time and a 15 year airline career under their belt, one STILL has to jump through all these hoops (exams, flight tests, etc...) to get a JAA conversion?

Sounds a little silly, considering one is already flying internationally, in all areas of global airspace (including those controlled by JAA rules), using feet, meters, inches baro and hPa, QNH, QFE, QNE, etc, etc.. What EXACTLY would one LEARN from the exams and flight tests, or is it just a matter of control?

Just asking.

14.4 H
how many of this where Multi Engine, how many FNPTII, how many for the IR and how many for the CPL

Did you already had an FAA ATP, im doing JAA ATPL

Cityfan, there is something called a "G" conversion for people with that level of experience. It cuts the exams down to just two with one of them being airlaw. I believe but am not sure you need 3000 hrs on aircraft over 30,000kg.

If anyone knows the exact regs I'd be curious myself.

touch_n_go, there are JAA AME's in the gulf area, you need to look them up on the CAA website under overseas AMEs.

Muddy Boots

FAA ATPL to JAA ATPL
 

FAA ATPL with 3700TT and 3300hrs on B737 experience flying in Africa, what do you require to convert to the JAA ATPL.

With 3300hrs on the B737 do you need to pass all 14 exams.

Any recommendations would be highly appreciated.

Thanks in Advance

That depends on what your ultimate goal is.
Don't have the reference in front of me so I'm shooting from the hip here;

You have two options:

• Validation
• Conversion

Validation requires 1000hrs of Commercial Operations and 500 hrs Multi Crew.
Two written exams if I'm not mistaken, Human Factors and Airlaw.
Downside to validation is thatyou cna only fly the registration of the country that issued the validation. As in only G-reg if it was the UK CAA.

Conversion (more like addition in your case) requires you pass all 14 written exams and a checkride w/examiner. In your case that could probably be done during a type check or type recurrency.
You will then hold a standalone JAA ATP which allows you to fy any reg in JAA-land.

Anybody, feel free to correct if I'm off-base here.

Jaa Conversion
 

Sorry if this trend already exists, i'm wondering does anyone have any experience with flight schools in Europe as I want to convert my FAA licences to JAA, i'm looking for a good school but not one were i will lose all my money either.
Any help would be amazing,
Thanks

Bristol Groundschool for the 14 theory exams :ok:

Flight Schools
 

i have Bristol picked out for the ATPL exams but the flying Schools im not sure of yet and in this day an age money is always an option, so if anyone knows of any schools i could research i'd appreciate it??

EU ATPL
 

Question for those who know the EU system:
I would like to get the JAA ATPL, I have the FAA ATPL etc, and I understand
I need to complete ALL 14 exams. But, the skills test? I current on a B737
could I do the skills test in a 737 sim, at what school's & costs?

The amount of exams will vary depending on your experience on multi-pilot aircraft ( check EU law website ) . The ATPL skills test has to be down on a Multi Pilot A/C (JAR25) or approved simulator . Minimum of 2 hours . Price will vary depending on provider .Best is to decide on the country you want to do your 'conversion' in , then contact the local CAA for exact details .

EU ATPL
 

Any advise on which CAA country? I have over 3500 hours total, with over 1000 hours in multi-crew. Am I correct in saying that I'd need to complete ALL 14 exams?

Yes you have to complete all 14 EASA exams.

For guidance, go to the CAA site and download "LASORs". It will give you what you need to do to satisfy the UK CAA. It's very close to what other European nations want too.

Just finished FAA IR to JAA IR conversion. My comments
 

Hi,

I'm not a big poster on this site but I think my comment might be useful to other people still hesitating between the full JAA course or the FAA-followed-by-the-conversion way. I hope it will help people avoid the mistake I made.

I just passed on friday the JAA ME IR skills test at Bournemouth. It took me 40.3 hours (+ 1.9 for the test) to do so. I already held a FAA SE IR that I did last year in October in San Diego. (I don't have a FAA CPL).

The minimum number of hours for this course is 20 hours: 13 in the sim, 7 in the airplane but I was told right away to plan for at least 30 hours.
I ended up doing 19.3 hours in the sim and 21 hours in the plane.

I'm certainly not the best pilot in the world, I take maybe a bit longer than other people to learn, and most importantly I lack of self-confidence, but don't get me wrong, it's absolutely impossible to get the rating in 20 hours if you don't have a lot of experience ( I now have exactly 250 hours total time not counting sim).

The two environment are very different and the things I found the most difficult were:

• the NDBs (holds and procedures). I had never really flown NDB before (the US have decomissionned almost all of them) and I'd been told it was hard but I didn't imagine it was that hard. I had also never heard about gates and abeams in the FAA environment.

• The Comms. Much more standard and strict than in the US. More calls, for exemple "Final Approach track or Localizer Established", "Next time over the beacon, ready for the procedure", I always forgot these as I was twisting, turning and throttling at the same time. It took me a bit of time to remember to do them but that's also because I sometimes had my brain switched off.

• The airspace. Down where I trained in Southern California I can't remember ever going in uncontrolled airspace so hearing about "stopping points" and "remain outside controlled airspace" was strange.

• ME. The fact that it was a multi-engine obviously doesn't help as there are lot more crucial checks to do and therefore a higher workload. The rudder was sometimes hard to control as there was a guy behind the aircraft hanging to it and it was me.

So in one word, if you think that the conversion way is going to save you some money, well in my case, the answer is negative and I reckon it's the same for most of us.

I must add that I had only flown about 20 hours in the UK before starting the IR so a person that did their PPL in the UK might be more used to and understand better the UK airspace and comms. 14 of these 20 hours were for the CPL course which I interrupted after 6 weeks because of the weather. Somebody that already has his CPL before doing the IR will have more hours on the ME and there might need less hours. Well it's generally the case at PAT as most people do everything on ME.

I must also say that most people who were converting and whom I talked to took about the same number of hours (35-40) and a friend of mine took about 60 hours not being full time and having to "juggle" between his job, the weather and the week-ends.

If I had to do all my training again I would probably avoid the US for the PPL and the IR and would only do the hour building as it is really fantastic to fly out there. Training there knowing that you gonna convert to JAA licence later is another story.

Any comment or question, don't hesitate. If you did the same as me I'd be interested to know how many hours it took for you to convert it.

Congratulations to start with.

A good post and honest about the process and difficulties.

All though I can't comment on the conversion as I did a JAA IR first I lived with 4 other gents in a B&B who had to do "20 hours conversion" and the majority were up around 40-50 hours. A couple were even taking longer than the full course due to primacy. (I.e what you learn first sticks and it is much harder to adjust than learn from scratch properly the first time)

If I were to recommend the FAA IR - the only way I consider it to be worth while is all of the course in the multi.

Doing all FAA training then converting is definitely not more economical - I have yet to meet someone who saved money from 0 to JAA. A half way house is to complete JAA training in the USA which is cheaper than JAA in the UK at least. :eek:

And last but not least :
Nothing in the US will every prepare you adequately for the JAA IR compared to the FAA IR.

A local FAA DPE where I did my FAA conversions had UK JAA licences/ratings as well. He said the FAA IR was more like a UK IMC and the JAA IR was similar to the FAA ATP.

Having been down this route myself I can confirm all of the points raised by TiltedTomato, however in my experience it is possible to achieve a conversion around the 20 hour mark.

To do this though you must be aware of your final objective of achieving a JAA ME/IR at the start of the process and plan your training accordingly. It is important you are fully aware of the differences between the FAA and JAA way of doing things and address it in your FAA IR training. For example rather than getting radar vectored approaches all the time ask for or go to an uncontrolled field and fly full procedural approaches. If you don’t have the luxury of an NDB in the locality and have the benefit of a G1000 equipped aircraft, practise holds using the ADF pointer on a random fix. Finally and most importantly get used to having a high work load prior to returning to Europe. Once home get as many back seat experiences as you can. This will help you pick up the procedural differences without having the added task of flying an aircraft round a hold on one engine and is a bit kinder on the pocket!

As for the merits of this route I can only say it worked out ok for me. That said I completed my training in the States when the exchange rate was more favourable and there was a clear financial saving along with other benefits. With current the exchange rates I would forgo the added stress of converting and just do a full IR course in the UK.


For the benifit of TiltedTomato

Total Conversion Hours: 24.2 Hrs
Dual ME: 8.9 Hrs
Dual SE: 6.1 Hrs
FNPT1: 6.3 Hrs
Transit & Test: 2.9 Hrs

It really depends on one's experience level. An inexperienced pilot should expect to take longer to convert than an experienced pilot. If the pilot is also learning something new eg adding a first time multi, or multi-IR then expect even longer.

My conversion to a UK ATPL was generally easy - but then I had 3700 hours, Australian & FAA ATPLs and was a current IR/multi instructor. In my case it took 9.5 hours from first flight to end of a combined CPL (well, ATPL it would be for me, but same test) & IR flight test. No sim. training that I recall.

Exams weren't that bad. My worst mistake was focusing too much on the harder Nav group items and not quite enough on Air Law & Radio. End result I failed those two by a single question each and had to resit them. Bugger. No time lost though because I re-sat them the same week I sat the Engine group.

I realise that I did a UK national licence and not the current JAR however any school with a decent reputation is well versed in JAR specifics by now. Anyway my intent was to try to show that there can be great variability in time to convert depending on prior experience, even allowing for the JAR 15hour IR training requirement.

Something that might still be possible: I was also able to save quite a bit of cash with the Cl. 1 medical by having all (or nearly all) medical procedures & investigations done in Australia and then bringing the results & reports with me to Gatwick. The CAA's fee was for a Cl.1 renewal even though I'd never held a CAA medical before. This option might still be available if you phone & ask about it.

Wow. I am really surprised. I had similar total hours when I did my FAA SE IR and then came back and converted. I did also do my ME rating in the USA, bare bones though, literally minimum hours and test. When I converted I only did c15 hours total, including the test (got dispensation from CAA for the hours).

Not sure where you trained, but I trained in southern California and we did cover all those things that you didn't.

NDBs - I was taught about NDBs (although admittedly there is a huge lack of NDBs in the USA)
Holds - I was taught about gates and abeams and we practiced alot of holds, including at airports and on airways (cross radials).
Comms - I found it much the same
Uncontrolled airspace - we did train at uncontrolled airports and also I had experience of the "remain outside controlled airspace" calls.

I did do my course quite intensively in the USA, completed the 40 hours and test in 15 days. I was also very pro-active with my studying, including sitting in the back with other students and practising on the sim if I was confused with anything. Also had very good ground briefings. And the King videos!!!

So it can be done, I guess it varies depending on the person.

Good point - don't take the cop out option. There are many great schools in the US, there also many terrible ones - get one which provides good quality training and your set.

There was a great post by Keygrip once about the USA attracting student pilots with unrealistic expectations and generally the weaker pilots and those who took the path of least resistance. I can't find it in the search function but will look when I'm back of the next trip

You should expect every course to be the absolute minimums required and no matter where you train a minimum 20% overspend in time and financially is the norm amongst the majority of students.

OUCH! Thats tainting a great many pilots with the same brush.

Indeed that is nonsense.

The best pilots I know are high-hour high-currency aircraft owners and many of them did everything in the USA. They bypassed the UK training machine totally.

A lot of people went to Florida to do a PPL on a budget and a lot of them rarely fly because they have no money to fly, so they aren't much good, but the vast majority of UK PPL training system graduates rarely fly too and they consequently aren't much good either - judged after the fact :)

Keeping half an eye on EASA, this is an interesting topic. I have an FAA CPL/IR (SE) and would one day do a JAA PPL/IR, but don't want to do the UK CAA route because of the stupid screens and the gold plated flying (NDB holds to perfection; no operational relevance of that these days).

Spain and Greece look much more interesting - with the 7 exams done at Gatwick.

There is a school at Jerez which somebody I know spoke highly of, and they did a SE conversion too. The Greek one is basically Egnatia at LGKV; I've been there but never done any flying there.

If doing the full 14-exam conversion (JAA CPL/IR) then the JAA exams can be sat at Athens for something like 5-10 euros each!

However, the UK appears to be unique in (a) allowing a dispensation from the mandatory ground school attendance, and (b) allowing the flying and the test to be done in a foreign-reg plane.

I'm not saying that - I'm saying there was a thread on the issue. I did training in the USA and the best part of the US system is Part 61 - the worst part is part 61 - it leads to the extremes in standards.

The opinion I have is that a Spanish IR isn't worth the paper it's printed on compared to a UK IR. I justified this on the numerous students who never tested, never completed the training but still go the IR....magically. :uhoh:

It's not generally a problem for experienced pilots who need to tick the box - but for a freshly minted FAA IR / JAA CPL it's not the best place to go.
There are plenty of other JAA states other than the UK which do it properly and for the same cost as Spain.

Besides this is a rumour forum...:cool:

I've had him on my ignore list for a long time so I don't really know what kind of bollocks he's on about this time, but when it comes to light aviation IFR, if there is one person in this forum who knows what he's talking about, that'd be the Lycoming-horizontally-opposed-six-cylinder-engine-named poster above :)

Whatever your reason for getting an IR, you could do worse than read some of his stuff. I disagree with him very occasionally on some of the more technical points which happen to fall within my area of expertise, but even out of those disagreements I come out having learnt something.

The Spanish IR is prob99 less "formal" than the perfectly gold plated UK one but (a) we are talking about a probably experienced pilot doing a conversion for a reason no other than the carriage of duplicate papers being mandated (or proposed to be so) by EASA and (b) I cannot see the operational significance of flying NDB holds with stuff like the gates etc, which literally nobody does today in today's RNAV enroute/terminal IFR environment.

It is time the whole post-WW2 edifice moved on to the latter part of the 20th century.

The advantage of doing this kind of paperwork collection exercise in Spain is that you go there, get your head down and get on with it, and the weather is not going to mess it up. Whereas if you dedicated say 2 weeks to it in the UK, you probably won't achieve it, due to wx.

but how about the written exams?
 

I believe that the practical part of JAA ir is more difficult than FAA.

But if you are FAA PPL/IR & 100+ hrs and want to convert (not validate) to JAA PPL/IR:

what is required? which written tests and what practical?

What if you also already have a JAA PPL?