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-   -   Starting to regret it! (https://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/378867-starting-regret.html)

Ronand 23rd Jun 2009 18:39

Starting to regret it!
 
So I've done it, spended around 45k (of which 25k belongs to the Bank) on a peice of Paper that is worth nothing in the aviation industry! In these 1,5years I worked really hard and had to put up with a lot of crap from flight schools! :ugh:
I spended my hard earend cash plus I'm about 25k in debts! I had a lot of illusions before I started my flighttraining about aviation, to be honest I didn't even enjoy it cos of all the delays and crap I got from the Flightschools I chose. I know It was entirely my own fault that I'm standing there with empty hands and huge debts. My Advise to anyone who is considering comercial flight training is:" Don't do it unless your parents are paying for it or u have huge funds!!, a CPL ME IR with low hours is worth shit these days!!

Bealzebub 23rd Jun 2009 19:04

What exactly did you think was going to happen?

haughtney1 23rd Jun 2009 19:16

Ronand, yeah it sucks, but trust me, most of us have been there!
Looking for a job at the moment for someone with your level of experience is a tough ask...it tough for everyone right now.
Rest assured things will improve..and its then when you need to be johnny on the spot.
In the meantime, drive a van, dig ditches, work in a call centre, do what you need to do....because like I've said, most of us have been there.

geordiejet 23rd Jun 2009 19:16

I hear you. Feeling the same - I'm sure there are a lot of us feeling the same. I never went into it with any delusions of a shiney jet job straight after training, took me three years (was working full time) and been working on my FIC for nearly a year now due to numerous delays and there are no jobs, not even for flight instructors (which were in need when I started training originally).

Sick to death of office work, so I'm frantically trying to finish my FIC so I can get applying for all FI jobs (IR expired and no MCC) so no chance of any airline work in the near future. So for the forseeable future I've applied to be cabin crew which I'm sure I'll love doing, and at the same time get some good experience and have fun.

Think we just have to stick with it, and not dwell on the cost. I've spent about the same (none of of mummy's unfortunately) and I'm pretty broke, but I try not to get too down about it. Just keep telling yourself "it'll soon pick up".

Fat Clemenza 23rd Jun 2009 20:21

Guys,

We've all been down there. Dreams, then come back to reality. BS from flight schools, pricks you pay to teach you but who only care about building time, countless hours of studying then your license with no job in the end...

BUt believe me it's worth it. I spent nearly 10 years in that sh!t hole. I tried to convince myself to give up more than once and looked for just a job to make a living...but I just could not.

It's not a question of being patient, it's a question of being more stubborn than the bureaucrats doing the hiring.

"After difficulty comes ease".:ok:

Ronand 23rd Jun 2009 20:24

I can just say, if I could turn time back I would never have done it again! First I thought it might help to get a FI rating but I think this is just more wasted money:ugh:
I got relatives in South america and could get a citizenship so
I'm siriously thinking about just fuc..ing off and running from my debts!

flyingvikings 23rd Jun 2009 20:41

Have any of you considered working in Africa
 
I feel your pains mates, I am also starting the same road you all took, the same mistakes you all made. I have just made up my mind of spending 33k$ in Canada for my PPL, CPL, IR nd Multi Eng. I know it is difficult, but in Africa there will always be paying jobs for us. Try and think or consider working in Africa at least it is best working and earning some few doe that sitting doing nothing related to what you have suffered for and paid heavily for mates. Have a re-think...wish us all luck

victorc10 23rd Jun 2009 20:42

That would be very irresponsible. Why should other people pay your debts because you have decided to run away from something you have created? It is anything but easy to break into the aviation industry. Many of us have spent many years working very hard doing jobs most people would turn their noses up at....those that run away will never make it because they don't have stamina...Having said that, I hope you persevere because it is worth it.

Mikehotel152 23rd Jun 2009 22:49

Ronand - It takes a lot of money and effort to obtain an fATPL and we all hoped to land a job straight out of flight school, so I do sympathise with you.

The mistake you appear to have made was failing to plan for the worst case scenario. Did you really spend £45K on your training without considering what might happen if you did not get a job straight out of flight school? :uhoh:

Unfortunately, far too many people start their commercial flying training without having a carefully thought out plan for getting a foot in the cockpit door. A cursory glance at Pprune, a few books like 'Job Hunting for Pilots' by Greg Brown, or a few chats with aviation professionals would reveal that only a very few pilots get a job straight away, whether by stumping up the cash because they still have cash reserves, by knowing someone, possessing extraordinary talent, or by sheer luck.

Before starting training you have to do your research and assume you won't be one of those lucky few. You should only proceed if you possess two other personal characteristics which will become absolutely essential and help your throughout your career: determination and motivation. Given enough time and a modicum of talent, those characteristics will get you a job in the medium term.

That a person would consider giving up on their potential career and running away from debts - and I'll give Ronand the benefit of the doubt and assume he only said it in jest or in order to blow off steam - is a shocking indictment on the type of person joining the industry. :eek:

LH2 23rd Jun 2009 22:59


Why should other people pay your debts because you have decided to run away from something you have created?
Mate you've got no future. Ever heard of a place called Wall Street? :}

Frankly Mr Shankly 23rd Jun 2009 23:13

I fear that this thread might run the length similar to "Growing Evidence...."

I suspect more and more may post over the coming months in a similar ilk.

It never has been easy landing that first elusive job, be it night freight, air taxi, or now as an FI. These days, crikey, it's like hens' teeth. However, when you do get there, it's a good job I can't deny it, but this thread "may" serve as a wake up call to some folk. I realise alot of guys training are savvy enough to know that the lack of jobs may grind you down and make other plans in the short term, but there are some on the forum who don't appear to recognise the dire straits the industry is in, and it really is fellas, or who don't want to because they are so eager to get the ball rolling. I know what it's like to want to escape the desk job and pursue the flying career, but at the current time it MUST be tempered with pragmatism, and not the "it won't happen to me" attitude as displayed by some on the forum.

And in no way are my comments aimed at Ronand here, more as a general point. As pointed out, the market was different when starting out. I wish Ronand good luck, would say don't give up on it, but to others, please think about it at this point in time, don't be blinkered by the "dream" or FTO spin.

TheChitterneFlyer 23rd Jun 2009 23:34

I've worked within aviation as a FE for most of my working life (I'm now 56 years of age) and I'm now considering investing a huge chunk of my savings just to gain a CPL and do some instructing for a living. My current Ops job just doesn't pay my outgoings! I DO feel for all of you youngsters who aren't gloing where you want to go; especially when you've invested so much time, effort, and money into gaining your frozen ATPL... life sucks!

Quite frankly, short term, I believe that you're better off driving a truck for a living; better income and less grief! Willy Walsh wouldn't give you tuppence for your commitment... I was once with BA; in the good years, and, thoroughly enjoyed my FE job. The good years are over; therefore, don't believe for one moment that you'll ever achieve a similar lifestyle to those who have gone before you. A sad fact of life!

The heartache and pain of gaining a 'pass' of your ATPL exams; worthy of your commitment and expenditure, isn't worth anything within this modern age. We might as well gain a degree in 'underwater basket-weaving'... which is probably worth more than the thousands of pounds of your investment into a flying career!

Good luck to you all.

TCF

Re-Heat 24th Jun 2009 00:34

This thread is remarkably interesting due to the incredible honesty displayed.

I hope everyone here makes it eventually - nobody would wish indebtedness and lack of employment on anyone.


PPRuNe is an excellent antidote to the marketing bull of flight training schools (and Ryanair), and this long history of sensible financial and training advice (with some posters' prescient warnings) must be spread as far and wide as possible.

There is truth in the CAA's statistics, which have a wide disparity between licence issue and employment figures.

The cardinal rules of flight training have to be:
- Have a backup plan;
- Don't get into extraordinary debt;
- Treat FTO marketing with extreme scepticism; and
- Make sure you have proven, strong aptitude when self-selecting.

BEagle 24th Jun 2009 08:00

I also question the ethics of FIC schools which continue to churn out novice FIs in the full knowledge that there are virtually no FI jobs around these days... Quite what lies they are telling their students, I cannot imagine.

There are also large numbers of people around who, whilst holding all the relevant bits of paper, will never be employable on an airline flight deck (not even Ryanair) because they lack basic interpersonal skills. The CAA has confirmed this.

There really is a case for all prospective airline pilots to be required to take a mandatory aptitude test before being permitted to start a CPL course.

Desk-pilot 24th Jun 2009 08:32

Some thoughts
 
I greatly sympathise with all of you having spent 18 months job hunting and falling back on my previous IT career during that time.

There are a couple of issues I think with this industry. The main one is that training is exclusively a private enterprise not run by Government. This leads to flying schools expanding their intake far beyond the numbers of available jobs. As a contrast my wife has recently embarked upon training to become a teacher (PGCE). Now the Government pays a training allowance of £9000 for 9 months tuition and restricts the numbers who can train so that it more closely matches the demand for teachers within the industry. Result is that hopefully everyone with the ability who passes the course should get a job. The starting salary is £21000, with a reasonable expectation of achieving a Head of dept type salary within say 5 years (£36k ish). Factor in the fact your training is paid for, a further £5000 golden hello for new science teachers and the fact that you get 12 WEEKS paid holiday a year and you can see how much better this is as a deal than being a pilot nowadays!!

Sadly this profession is becoming a joke in terms of the employment conditions, working hours, salaries, employment prospects etc and many of you would be well advised to explore some potential alternatives that pay better, even if only as a means to support yourselves and have a comfortable lifestyle while you keep current at weekends and wait for the upturn. When the upturn comes you will then have a reasonable job and you can decide if you actually want to leave it to fly.

What I'm trying to say really is you are where you are. You can't get a flying job at the moment so you might as well fill your time doing something decent rather than working in McDonalds - get yourself a second career.

Just recently we had a F/O with 3 years flying under his belt who went back to ATC because the hours and pay were far better - and he'd made it to the right seat of an airliner!! Another left to train as a train driver - all training paid and £50k a year! Another Captain I know and keen sailor is contemplating training as a liner Captain with P&O or whatever because he'd see the world and enjoy the status and tradition - fine dining etc that airline Captains are nowadays denied. Flying really isn't what it used to be, it's hard to see that when you're a wannabe, but ask any airline pilot and they'll agree. Of course we all love the flying bits of the job but if you really look at the workload, the pay, the training costs, the unsocial hours etc in an unemotional manner I'm not sure it makes that much sense as a career nowadays compared to some of the better alternatives.

Desk-pilot

profot 24th Jun 2009 08:45

I feel sorry for the youngsters in this situation.

When i did my training there were a few guys like me who had businesses and careers to fall back on and walk straight back in to but those poor lads and lasses in their teens and early twenties must surely be getting a bit down in the dumps.

Try to keep your chin up and if you really want that elusive job you have to try that little bit harder than the next guy!

skyhighbird 24th Jun 2009 08:55

Maybe the problem is that you spended £45K.

If you had spent £45K, things may have panned out differently.

shaun ryder 24th Jun 2009 09:05

I do not agree Desk - Pilot. The hours you work per week in this job are less than average. The pay coupled to the amount of time you spend at work is actually quite good (depends on employer I know). However if you are flying for crap money well I can understand, because in the end it is all about the money.

helimutt 24th Jun 2009 09:07

Desk-pilot:

You might want to talk to your friend and give him a few friendly pointers.

Another Captain I know and keen sailor is contemplating training as a liner Captain with P&O or whatever because he'd see the world and enjoy the status and tradition - fine dining etc that airline Captains are nowadays denied.
To train from scratch he'd need to go to college, pass the necessary exams, get the minimum qualifications and start at the bottom. His 'Captain' qualification from flying would do nothing for him at sea. He'd be joining many other guys working their way up the ladder. Unfortunately, money can't buy a Master Mariners ticket. Years at sea and experience are required and the chance of ending up as a P&O Liner Master, well, pretty much the same odds as becoming a premiership footballer.

Desk-pilot 24th Jun 2009 09:31

Flying
 
Helimut, I think he has decided to stay put for the time being anyway but thanks for the pointers.

Regarding Shaun's post I think the hours worked and pay vary so widely in this game that it's difficult to debate. Obviously if you're working in the charter area you're actually paid rather well and seemingly at least in Winter don't work that much. If on the other hand you're talking about a junior FO in the low cost sector which is realistically where most get their first airline job then you will probably be working some sort of 5 on 2 or 3 off type pattern and as the days can be as long as 10 hours duty I'd say that you could be working 45-50 hours a week at unsocial times for a fairly modest wage - say £20k-£30k if you're lucky in year 1?

I'm not trying to dissuade people from flying, it's a genuinely enjoyable job and I consider myself very fortunate to actually enjoy the job I have (which is rare amongst my neighbours and friends.) I was really just trying to offer wannabes who currently can't join the party a realistic view of the job and also encouraging them to find something else for a couple of years till things pick up.

Clear skies to all of you.

Desk-pilot

Groundloop 24th Jun 2009 09:33


the chance of ending up as a P&O Liner Master, well, pretty much the same odds as becoming a premiership footballer.
I'll second that. To reach that level in P&O you would need to have joined as a cadet straight out of school. If your friend, the Captain, really thinks this is a possible alternative career path for him I would seriously question his judgement and, hence, if he should even be an airline Captain at all.

Ronand 24th Jun 2009 09:38

@Skyhighbird My first language is not english, I would like to see you writing in spanish! To be honest I don't think it's my english, that is holding me back from getting a job!
@Flyingvikings You have illusions mate, the job market in Africa is as dead as it gets and if u don't have any contacts and no citizenship you got zero chance of scoring a job there! Sorry to say but that's a fact! And by the way it will cost u more than 36$!

CAT3C AUTOLAND 24th Jun 2009 09:41

From the original poster, I would be interested to know what you actually expected?

Why should you only pursue your ambitions if your folks are going to fund it for you, or you have huge funds as you put it? What is wrong with working hard yourself to earn the money, to fund yourself to achieve your dreams?

I appreciate everyone has their own set of personal circumstances, however, if you are persistent and it is in your heart, believe me you will achieve your goals.

In terms of your advice to other people, I would disagree. One thing people fail to do is think about a back up plan, and thoroughly research what they are getting themselves into. Ever since I can remember, if you are not sponsored by an airline, getting your first job is going to be difficult. As most people have mentioned here, and I include myself here, we have all been there. Don't get me wrong, some people are lucky, I work with a few, they got their first job flying a jet shortly after completing training, but, they are few and far between. You must think about your plan of action post flying training. There is no point have this huge commitment and investment in your future and then sitting back once you have finished and whining because you are not sitting in the sharp end of an airliner.

I wouldn't give up, there is always a way.

BarbiesBoyfriend 24th Jun 2009 10:21

Ronand

Hey! It could be worse!

A pal of mine spended £100,000, got his fATPL but he'll never get a job in aviation as he spent his entire time at the various schools arguing with his instructors.

At least you're 'only' out £45k.

I had to go back to my old job flogging cars when I qualified as there wasn't much hiring then. Guess what? In the showroom one day I met a pilot and he was instrumental in me getting a start.

Keep your chin up and wait for things to improve.

Don't give up.:ok:

TurboJ 24th Jun 2009 11:02


........... if you really look at the workload, the pay, the training costs, the unsocial hours etc in an unemotional manner I'm not sure it makes that much sense as a career nowadays compared to some of the better alternatives.
I couldn't disagree with you more. My previous career in the emergency services I had to endure 18hr days, no breaks, non stop grief from both the public and supervisors, 8hrs in between shifts, stuck out in bad weather and politics that was beyond belief.

Whilst a flying career has its own hassles, I work far less for a lot more money and I'm only in the RHS. To say I'm at work sat at home on standby is incomprehensible to former colleagues.

What are the better alternatives? I'd be interested to know.

Going back to the original post - I've very little sympathy. What did you expect when you started your training? Now you have a licence you have to go and build your experience, along with the hundreds of other people who also have graduated from flight school. Try doing that whilst holding down a full time job, working shifts, with a wife, mortgage, three kids etc etc...

Unless you went to one of the major schools who will get you the interview, nobody is going to hand you a job on a plate. You have to go and work for it.

Network - Get to know people too - They will also network for you; Several jobs I got were through people who knew people.

Good luck........TJ

Brian Fantana 24th Jun 2009 11:20

I didn't even enjoy it cos of all the delays and crap I got from the Flightschools

welcome to the world of aviation how do you think you are going to be treated by an airlines ops,crewing department are you going to throw your toys out of the pram everytime you have a delayed air traffic slot or delay due to baggage loaders, late passengers etc etc?
There is so much more to being an airline pilot than just climbing into a shiny jet flying somewhere sunning and lounging by the pool drinking cold beers and checking out the girlies.
Everybody has had to go through hard times to get where they are now some people (the not so keen ones) throw in the towel, others (the really keen ones) make it to the pool - which are you?

Frankly Mr Shankly 24th Jun 2009 11:40

There is so much more to being an airline pilot than just climbing into a shiny jet flying somewhere sunning and lounging by the pool drinking cold beers and checking out the girlies.

Oh bloody hell, no-one told me that when I started! :)

CAT3C AUTOLAND 24th Jun 2009 11:43


There is so much more to being an airline pilot than just climbing into a shiny jet flying somewhere sunning and lounging by the pool drinking cold beers and checking out the girlies.
Is there? ;)

Dr Eckener 24th Jun 2009 13:49

You know there is CAT3C. You also have to spend a lot of time sat next to a gaylord like yourself talking about motorbikes and 80's music. :{

Ronand 24th Jun 2009 14:54

@Brian Fantana Well the big diffrence is if u work for an airline u earn money and u are not paying for any delays... So I wouldn't really care..
Its incredible with how much BS I had to put up with while training, after all I was a paying costumer! There is no other business, where a customer pays that amount of money and gets treated like that! Maybe I was just really unlucky and chose the wrong schools, but from what I read here it seems to be quite common that other students are making similar experiences with other schools....

TheBeak 24th Jun 2009 16:02


Its incredible with how much BS I had to put up with while training, after all I was a paying costumer! There is no other business, where a customer pays that amount of money and gets treated like that!
Exactly, and when you complain that they are never flying you because they couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery you get:


A pal of mine spended £100,000, got his fATPL but he'll never get a job in aviation as he spent his entire time at the various schools arguing with his instructors.
So if you don't bend over and take their laziness and black mail, you have them bad mouth you to any potential airline employer. It's not a nice industry.


welcome to the world of aviation how do you think you are going to be treated by an airlines ops,crewing department are you going to throw your toys out of the pram everytime you have a delayed air traffic slot or delay due to baggage loaders, late passengers etc etc?
No and this is what every captain/FTO says. It is completely different. You are being PAID, we are PAYING. You are sitting in an aircraft doing what you trained to do. The whole problem is the NOT flying. So it is not even in the slightest bit similar.

Mikehotel152 24th Jun 2009 16:24

BEagle has a point:


There are also large numbers of people around who, whilst holding all the relevant bits of paper, will never be employable on an airline flight deck (not even Ryanair) because they lack basic interpersonal skills.
I would go one step further. The number of people posting on Pprune in barely intelligible English is appalling. I was lucky to be taught English abroad in a fairly traditional way. We learnt grammar and spelling, punctuation and syntax. I suppose you can't expect much from the products of the painfully politically-correct modern English state school system.

Why is any of this important? It's simple: A person who concentrates on writing correctly and clearly will probably think in a similarly careful way. If you do not take care in the way you express yourself, will you take care in the way you fly? Will you be able to interact properly with another crewmember, the public, the cabin crew? Or is your attitude generally 'slapdash'? What sort of person do you think the Airlines want to employ?

Just another aspect of this issue of aptitude for the job, but worth mentioning, innit. :E

TheBeak 24th Jun 2009 16:33

I couldn't agree more Mikehotel152.

Re-Heat 24th Jun 2009 16:45

Desk-pilot

I'm not sure that government-run training would be any better. You only have to look at the serious failings they have made in calculating requirements for RAF pilots, doctors and the like to see that they would make no better fist of it than the private sector!

destinationsky 24th Jun 2009 16:53

I agree with that point too! I meet people everyday who have more of an "education" than i do. Most of them either have no common sense or cannot spell for toffee.
This world is full of opportunities that will only present themselves if you go looking for them. I am about to start my training with the intention to become a commercial pilot. I have networked and got to know pilots through various airlines by introducing myself. In turn, they introduce you to others and before you know it, emails are flying around and hey presto, you have links. I have even got a contact in DBX who owns a cargo airline.
Its all well and good moaning that your experience has been bad but your life is in your hands. If you truly want to fly for a living, get out there and make yourself known. Dont moan that you stand no chance of getting anywhere. With an attitude like that, how the hell will you get anywhere?!
I understand that the industry is bad and there are no jobs. Get a job doing anything! If you were worried about the money you could have stopped training at any point. It cant of been as bad as you say otherwise you would have stopped along time ago!
I hate my job at the moment but it pays well. Its not my ideal job but it pays money and it pays for my passion. Flying.

quant 24th Jun 2009 17:13

ronand ignore the silly pprune spelling police..

Mikehotel152 24th Jun 2009 17:35

Sorry, quant, but I do not understand your post.

Are you saying Ronand has ignored the silly Pprune spelling police or are you telling him to ignore the silly Pprune spelling police?

Case in point.

And I ought to clarify that my comments about the correct use of the English language were not aimed at Ronand, but at native speakers.

2098 24th Jun 2009 18:00

MikeHotel get a life. I'll tell you what the airlines donít want; people with no social skills. Who wants to site next to a pilot for 8 hours and talk about the current UK education system??! No Thanks!

I'll stick to football and women :p

student88 24th Jun 2009 18:14

MikeHotel sounds like the last person I'd want to share a flight deck with.

A career FO in the making.

Kelly Hopper 24th Jun 2009 18:16

Mikehotel you are so right.
Those whose native language is not English can be forgiven but I spend so much time "trying" to read posts that have appalling grammer, spelling mistake after spelling mistake, their/there/the're errors etc. it is simply embarrassing.
Aren't we supposed to be of above average intelligence?
It is very true indeed that presentation at this level can be representative of the way a person conducts themselves in all they do. It is not just spelling police, it is a very clear indication of how much effort someone put into something. I even see CV's with half a dozen spelling mistakes! WOT?
At the very least read through what you have written before clicking "submit reply."


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