Is Cabair going to stay alive?
 

It was not so long ago that there was a thread on here about Cabair making a number of redundancies and someone was talking about the company folding. Does anyone know of any further news on this matter as I believe that this might be of a little importance to those considering paying their deposits for flight training at said organisation?

where is WWW when you need him, he seems to know everything!!

This is a very relevant post, not just from Cabair but other FTO's as well.

If Cabair does fold, how will this affect other FTO's? Will this give others more of a monopoly over course prices or will it cause others to reduce their course fees??

FTOs surely?

A number of ex-Cabair DA40s/42s (hope the apostrophe is right :zzz: ) have been observed at a West Midlands intergalactic spaceport recently.:hmm:

Can't comment on the financial aspect but I was talking to friend of mine last night who is on the Cabair Integrated course and according to him things aren't going to well up at Cranfield for all concerned......

Hope Not!
I was hoping to join Cabair around mid-summer in 09.
If it does get bust what will happen to those students?
Can they get their money back?

n.dave37

Deppends how they got bust.

If they got bust financially then you will just be in a line of creditors.

I have a friend currently on an Integrated at Cranfield, just wrapping up ground school before setting of to Valencia.

There was alarm a couple weeks ago as about 2/3rds of the fleet were hearding off back to their leasing company somewhere in the states/australia but assured the worried students this was due to the leasing company going pop not Cabair!

I do hope he gets through okay, though if the worst happens, he like many other students will have insurance so though a nightmare, wouldn't be the end of their 70K entirely if the worst did happen to Cabair.

Choppy waters though for sure.

Outlook for Scabair looks poor.


For the record the UK BASED leasing company hasn't gone pop, as I saw about 5 of the aircraft operating at Halfpenny Green

Anyone know how the others are doing, or may be doing in the future?

Of course you could argue that the £70k will be blown when he can't get a job afterwards, but that's another thread.

Memories of 1991? when Trent Air Services went tits up and Cabair bought them out for £1 (iirc).

I think amongst the biggest financial sufferers were the students. In those days (and probably still), you paid 4 equal instalments for the course. But the nature of it had all the expensive elements (the flying and esp the twin flying) at the back end.

Good luck to all

I don't think there is a particular reason to think Cabair would be the first to go bust. They are consulting with their employees as they look to downsize.

That's not really a secret and I wouldn't read too much into it as I think all the other schools will be doing the same either already or soon.

The only sensible strategy is to pay as go. No reason at all why you can't pay a £1,000 a day by instant debit card if need be. Then your exposure is minimal. If they offer an upfront payment discount tell them you want the discount but without the upfront requirement or your business goes to a competitor. Turning away turn over is something none of the FTO's are in a position to do right now.

WWW

Absolutely. It makes one wonder why so many are still capable of doing it though. :ugh:

Cabair
 

Re the aircraft leasing company that went bust, the day after cabair had them back online under their leasing company and things where back up and running, regards to cabair going under i dont see this in the immediate future if they are willing to turn around aircraft like that. Instructor redundencies look like good business sense with the current economic climate.

www

Isn't Cabair's integrated course the cheapest around at the moment? Negotiable with them may sound good idea at this current climate. But I don't think they are negotiable as they are the cheapest integrated course now compared to other FTOs (as far as I know). Maybe, it will work with other FTOs????

n.david

Instructor redundancies would lag any drop in enrollment by many months. If their 2008 courses were chocker, then they'd be halfway through 2009 before any drop in FI requirements starts to show up and probably closer to the end of 2009 before they'd need to make any FIs redundant. I don't know how full their 2008 courses were, but that is the best indicator as to when a drop in revenue and human resource requirements would lead to redundancies.

I don't think FTO's will drop prices, they will seek to contain and cut costs. When a business has money, particularly borrowed money, tied up in inventory, they drop prices to move it. We probably all got some nice Crimbo prezzies last week as a result. But FTO's don't have inventory, so staff redundancies become the cost containment technique of choice, but this lags any drop in sales by at least the length of ground school. Going to the wall only happens if sales revenue drops below the absolute break even point after staff is reduced to the bare minimum and cash is exhausted. Obviously, too much existing debt can accelerate failure while new financing or capital investment from deep pocketed owners can serve as effective life support to stave off failure until enrollment grows again.

Cabair has had a strong business for many years, so if their owners have not abused leverage, they could ride out a down cycle like they have before. Unless anyone has some solid sources indicating trouble, I'd chalk this up to unfounded rumours, particularly this early in a downturn. The fiscal soundness of an FTO merits very strong consideration by any wannabe though, not just in a down cycle, but in an upward one as well, so there is value in the topic even if Cabair is fine.

Guys I've been in aviation for 10 years now, this problem of flight training organisations going bust is nothing new, just as WWW has said pay as you go is as important now as it's ever been.

Dont put yourselves in a situation where any training organisation has lots of your hard earned (or financed) cash in their bank account.

I trained modular and was never more than a few hundred quid in credit at any time.

If any company wants thousands of cash upfront, politely decline and say that your quite happy to keep your account in credit, and stick to your word, it's going to be tough times for FTO's and it's a bit of a buyers market just now (possible understatement).

For those of you training or looking for a job stick with it, I don't doubt you already know that the aviation market is very cyclical (7 years I was told during training and that has been the case in my experience) It will recover from bust to ..... well maybe not boom but it wil recover.

Regards

Bloody good advice. Flight training is a buyers market right now, make the most of it.

Apologies for the slight thread drift...

About this time last year when I was planning my CPL/IR training, I narrowed it down to two modular establishments in the UK located pretty close to each other, both quality schools with good equipment and instructors and good reputations.

When it came to talking money with the first school, they were quite insistant that they would require the full amount for the IR (in excess of £10k) up-front at the start of the course. It was made clear that this was not negotiable and that paying in installments was not an option.

The second school was happy for me to employ a 'pay as you go' philosophy; as long as I walked out of the door every day with my account in the black they were happy.

I was absolutely not prepared to give an FTO such a large amount of money up-front and so I went with the second school (and I was extremely happy with them as it goes). I put funds on account in chunks at a time and never had much money sitting on account for long periods, an arrangement I was much more comfortable with.

A year ago, the first school weren't prepared to budge on their policy of paying the whole amount up-front, even when I said that I would be forced to take my business elsewhere which I subsequently did. I wonder if this would still be the case now or whether there would be more room for leverage!

There is actually one FTO where your money is 100% protected - Western Australian Aviation College.

WAAC are required, by the Australian Government, to have a set of insurance policies that guarantee to pay back money to overseas students in the event of WAAC folding. Then, if the insurance company were also to go bust, the Australian Government itself will refund the student or arrange for the student to complete the course elsewhere at the Aussie Govt. expense.

This system was introduced some time back after a number of educational establishments (not FTOs) went bust and a large number of overseas students lost a lot of money. Oz started to get a bad name, particularly in the Far East, so protect its market in OS students this scheme was introduced.

Of course, this does mean you have to go to Oz!!

Sounds Good! Groundloop.

But I feel the pound exchange rate is not very favourable:\

n.dave

Is one Colin Edgar Heathcote still the majority owner of Cabair,with John Reid as General Manager??This brings back memories of the late 70s!!

One of the interesting aspects of paying as you go is that you appreciate the cost of each flight or sim session. Put it this way, if you give the FTO £1000 of your hard-borrowed cash by debit card just prior to a morning IR lesson, you're likely to be asked for more money just over 24 hours later once you land after your next lesson. That's how expensive flying training is! :{

On the same theme but paradoxically, there is a danger that by flashing your card every couple of days you don't actually keep track of the overall picture and find yourself looking at amazement at your depressing bank statement, suddenly realising that you've spent a vast amount more than you were originally quoted! :uhoh:

A797, while this may be correct, what you are forgetting is that all of the UK's integrated FTOs conduct either a part or all of their flight training outside of the UK. With the GBP at such a low against the Euro and Dollar and still falling, these schools have already become as much as 30% less profitable for the off-shore part of their operations.

There never was, nor will there ever be a huge profit to be made in flight training, so I suspect that while schools will do everything in their power to get your business, the fact will remain that they simply will not be able to afford to discount current training rates by any significant degree. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't bargain, but the reality is that you may not gain as much as you might think.

jez

Only a fool will not pay-as-you-go in this climate - no matter what school and how flashy their advertising is in the back of Flight. It was probably 8 years ago when the last big school folded, leaving many without a licence and with no money. It is a strategy that you should apply throughout your training. The only time i had to pay upfront for each module was Bristol Ground School, but the amount was minimal (compared to the rest of the bills). In fact during my ME/CPL/IR my school let me go substantially in debit, once they got to know me. Otherwise, i would just settle up what i owed at the end of each flying week, so I was always sort of in debit.

And why can't that be introduced in the UK as part of the FTO approvals process?

We have the ATOL bonding system regulated by the CAA so why couldn't a similar bonding scheme be introduced to FTOs?

Food for thought.

Cabair already charge a Credit Card surcharge so that's nothing new.

Slackjack, what kind of an insurance your pal has? I've never heard about anything like that before :O I'm just sorting the finances for the course and as I'm coming from overseas, the current pound rate would encourage to pay everything in advance, so that sort of insurance would certainly give some peace of mind!

Debit cards..are you sure WWW?
 

Protection from loss is assued when payments are made by credit card ... but IIRC, no such protection is afforded when payment is made by debit card. Are you sure WWW? Cheers anyway bm:eek:

I've been flying with Bedfordshire School of Flying - essentially the 'Private' arm of Cabair at Cranfield.

Apparently they've laid off quite a few commercial instructors, have sent back to the leasing company a lot of DA40s (not sure about the DA42s), and to cap it all off, they've just put their rental charges up from £120 ph to £160 ph on the DA40. Lovely!

Needless to say I (along with at least 2 that I know of) have moved to a different club/school.

Cabair OFT
 

I was told by my new school that Cabair are doing great, that they are investing in an intergrated course at Orlando Flight Training (where I am doing my PPL) and that all is fine and dandy! That was one of the selling points for the school, that they were good enough for Cabair so why not me! And apparently it is only the beginning of Cabairs Expansion into America! This is what I was told!

???

cabair
 

I am just near the end of my training, with little experience of training schools, but I have quickly learned statments like 'cabairs expansion' is the constant type of rubbish which comes from the mouths of the heads at cranfield.

If you have a flybe or rbi sponsor you will be rushed through with red carpet, but failing that you will be treated worse than an RSPCA rescue animal. I sit week in week out waiting for aircraft.

Poor aircraft serviceability, lack of aircraft, bad tempered and shouting instructors, should have gone else where, or delayed my start. With my parents re-mortgaged and no hope of a job at the moment the rubbish that cabair keep coming out with saying train now and you will be ready for the upturn is bull. Train now and be completely uncurrent and out of practice for the upturn.

If I had my time again cabair would not have got my money.

cabair
 

hi m8 nice blog on cabair

i passed an assesment with them in august 08, deciding to delay my training till end 0f09/early 2010.
they hounded me for me to start in march and have sent multiple letters ever since to get me to start. they seem very keen but i amglad i have read your blog as it confirmed to me tat they are my last resort after several others after oxford.
hope all goes well.

FTO's in general!
 

Visit www.companieshouse.gov.uk/ pay for a report on the company you want to check out and view filed accounts. FYI CABAIRS are alot better than most!

Whats at companies house is always well out od date.

Cabair a bit like Tescos
 

Cabair are a bit like Tescos, they pop up everywhere, over the last few years they have brought up a fair few establishments! I don't think they will go bust, but I think you may see some of the less profitable parts of the business vanish! Personally I don't like Cabair, never heard a good word about them, there sausage factory approach to flight training stinks if you ask me. I also hate the fact that they buy training rights at a number of airfields such as Elstree which means that an experienced private pilot cannot fly in the circuit! Madness!

Cabair Bankrupt?
 

Iv heard that cabair have gone bankrupt, can anyone confirm this and give more details?

Question 1
 

What was your source ?

Question 2 .. what are you doing popping up asking that question with one post to your name ?

Don't expect to be taken seriously here will you ?