18 years old, off to university this year and wants to be a airline pilot
 

Hello,

My name is Ric and this website is probably the most useful I've come across, so thankyou for your information/opinions :)

Anyway, my question is, what is the best move for me for the near future?

My story is I'm going to university this year to study a 3 year degree in Computing and Management Studies at Newcastle University.
The likely fact is that I'll probably be a lot of debt and have to get a job to pay it off and paying for flight training isn't an easy option to take.

I've short listed acouple of routes I can take:
1. Apply for the RAF (which I am currently doing for a pilots bursary)
2. After university get a job save up for acouple of years and join OAT/CTC
3. After university get a job and do it the modular route (f)ATPL

I guess it is just the money factor. I've read round the forum that training could range from a little as 30k to 100k and having student debt on top means more money to pay off.

Anyway, sorry to rant on :ugh:

Thanks
Ric

There is also option 4.

Don't go to university and waste your time/money on getting a degree that you don't actually need anyway to become an airline pilot and just go straight into training then you will get a flying job sooner and be earning money to pay off the reduced debt of training without the student debt on top. You will also be on the seniority list earlier too.

There are an awful lot of airline pilots out there who didn't go, and they are donig just fine without a degree, although it is something to fall back on incase things don't go to plan.

Just playing devils advocate here, not saying you shouldn't go to uni, but it's another option that is open to you.

:ok:

Ric

The educator in me says, "Get a degree". However, you could skip uni and get a quarter of your flying training done on the debt you would have had in the 3 years of studying.

There again, the student loan is the cheapest debt you're ever likely to get, and maybe you can't get the 15-20k upfront, so need traditional, expensive loans.

You'll need a good wage to save for the mod route, so perhaps we're back to the degree to maximise earnings. You could teach- 20k start, and 12 weeks to train in as you go along.

Don't go military unless it's your life's ambition. It won't work. Good luck.

CG

Leezy beat me to it, in part

Option 5

Do the flight training, get a job and once settled down get a degree with the Open University. All bases covered!

Or else the foundation degrees that cover the ATPL from London Metropolitan University.

I say continue your degree in computing, while starting your flight training when you have your days off. It is true you don't need a degree to become an airline pilot but I think it can give you that edge in a very competitive field.

I will give you a classic example, say one day your flying your high performance jet and the air hostess brings you lunch. As she turns to give you your lunch she accidentally pokes you in the eye with the lunch tray, partially impairing your vision. You loose your medical as a result and can no longer fly. If you have your degree in computing you can walk into a relatively high paid profession, but if you don't your stuck at mcdonald's for the rest of your life.:{ You decide...

I was in your position (like many others I'm sure).

I didn't think the airlines would be all that keen to take on a 21 year old boy with no life experience and only A levels. I say 21 as that is the minimum age to sit the ATPL exams.

You're 18 when you finish school (A levels) so you need to find something to do for 3 years. I did a degree that put me in debt but gave me great life experience, met some great friends and above all puts a couple of letters behind me name.

Having a BSc will/should get you a higher earning job, I also did IT (Multimedia Tech & IT studies) and I found my job nearly 2 years ago. I saved enough to do my training in no time but fell into the rat race of getting my own place. So I've had to start saving from scratch again.

I'll be going modular with BFC in Bristol (or that is the plan after many years of research) and Ideally I'd like to get my CPL debt free and then a small loan to pay the rest (Multi-IR & MCC).

People will tell you having the degree is pointless and just added debt, but if you take out the maximum student loan and not spend it on drink and socialising it'll come in pretty handy wen flight training begins at 21/22.

So the choice is 21 no degree and a fATPL or 22 with a BSc and a fATPL and a back up career should it go pear shaped ;)

Don't bother with the RAF if you're not 110% committed, they'll figure you out in no time and you'll waste your time and theirs. As for Integrated v Modular ... that's a personal choice.

Good luck.

There is no minimum age to sit your atpl, well there is LEGALLY, and that is 17.
You can demonstrate the same amount of determination/ maturity if your 17 or your 30...it makes no odds, it just depends on how much of a gambler/determined you are.

If you are 100% sure your want to be a pilot, then start it as soon as you can, because now is the time where jobs are rife.

There are too many people that delay starting their training and find themselves 3 to 4 years behind the drag curve....and that could be the difference of £200000 if you find yourself with the right employer.

I'm not going to blabber on about the choices i've made, but suffice to say, I started young and have no regrets. Its all about maximising your investment. SO
why spend money on a degree that your not going to follow up?

Bite the bullet, follow your dream and the sooner you start, the sooner your debt will be paid off!

good luck.

randomair

I stand corrected. For some reason I read 21 somewhere? ... maybe it's to be issued with a full ATPL :bored:
(Says here too http://www.learndirect-advice.co.uk/helpwithyourcareer/jobprofiles/profiles/profile495/ ... not that I'd take any notice of it)

Degree v No Degree debate is almost as bad as Modular v Integrated.

It's a personal choice, look around at how many people with fATPL are waiting for their first jobs, it wont take long to notice a few bitter people on here with no jobs after blowing £50k+ on training.

I have my safety net, a fairly well paid job, I am a much more mature person than I was at 18, My revision technique is better after 4 years at Uni and now I am hoping to do my training pretty much debt free.

If I had the chance to go through life again I'd have joined the Police Force after my A levels and done as much over-time as possible, done my PPL/Night/IMC studied for my ATPL's then taken 12 months off to concentrate on my flying career.

On the other hand I did enjoy Uni.

I always think Uni would be a good choice for all, life experiences, and a degree to come out with. Obviously these things don't come free and you are right in assuming this will cost you £12,000 + in debt.

Personally I finished University in June and now I am working for a very large company, which has good links to aerospace industry. And yes I also enjoyed uni a lot!

When it comes down to it, you will have to take a chance at some point. You can either go to uni and look towards flying schools after...obviously degree there as a backup if all doesn't go as planned vs money you have spent to get that bit of paper.

Next you could jump right in, go sign up at OAT and take out a loan for a big portion of that. Were is the rest of the money coming from? Would your parents be happy you possibly putting your name on that amount of money?

For me, I am currently working and still looking to persue a flying career but also have my own questions to answer first :ugh:

Choice is yours, good luck!

Uni will cost you at least £15k. That's the PPL and hour building and the ATPL exams covered. Get a job and live at home and save like a lunatic. Lets say you get a job on £15k a year working in a local electronics factory on a production line (you do some overtime and double shifts). You should be able to save £8k a year leaving you with £24k in the bank plus compound interest of £2k = £26k in cash and NO student loans or overdrafts.

During your employment it would be perfectly possible to add an NVQ3 to your CV and if the employer offers day release ONC courses then that is doable as well.

Nothing stopping you having a Sunday job as well or working in a local pub on Saturday night.

To keep yourself sane and focussed on a flying career you can get hold of a set of ATPL study notes and spend a few hours a week reading them.

At the grand old age of 21 you would have a clear training plan worked out, be fully up to speed on the PPL theory and havea grasp of the ATPL course. You would have at least £26k in your pocket and could get a loan fairly easily (three years continuous employment and fully solvent) for a further £12k.

£38k is then a reasonable figure to do the Modular course.

SOooooooo much better than a piece of paper with a degree written on it and no relevant experience and a big debt to the student loan company (I did a degree myself and have nothing against it per se).

And forget this nonsense about something to fall back on.

The majority of people not the top ten percent now have do a degree so by itself it doesn't make you special. Given that you got the degree then went and did something completely different AND your degree is now 6 years old and covered in dust AND things have moved on quite a bit then your computer degree is going to get you no where as a fall back.

WWW

You need a degree in U.S. to get a good job with a major but not elsewhere?Does not sound right to me,I`ve been told on both forums you need a degree to fly everything but RJ.

Once again lots of folk with an opinion trying to totally confuse a newbie to the industry.
At the moment, he stands as good a chance of getting a job at 21 with low hours without a degree then he does a 25 with one. Everyone who has been through the mill and who is now sitting at the pointy end will tell you that its all about the right place at the right time, or knowing somebody.
Yes it is possible to send off a CV and get lucky but unless you have a degree that is directly related to the aviation industry, all of the recruiters I know, really don't give a toss. It's whether a person holds the relevant licence, has the relevant experience required for the job, and that could be 200 hrs or 2000 hrs dependant on requirements. There are no hard and fast rules.

Or you could read through this and decide.

I don't know any recruiters who are interested in an aviation related degree.

AeroEng is of no use when deciding to de-ice a wing rather than design it.

There isn't a degree out there that is of any damn use to being an airline pilot. The reason is because the job is such a multi disciplinary one. A airline pilots don't need to know a lot about physics, weather, aerodynamics, engineering, maths, language, geography, psychology or social affairs - but he needs to know a little bit of each to be good at his job.

Do be honest a good solid set of A-levels proves you can hit the books and pass exams. That's relevant to hiring new pilots. A degree much less so.

Given the 3 years and X thousands of cost the rewards for doing one are slim in the UK.

WWW

I whole heartedly agree with WWW

We as professional pilots need to know a little about about an awful lot of things.
I do know one recruiter who would on occasion sit up and take notice of an airline management degree, but seriously folks nothing else

:ok:

Ric, WWW knows more about the business than most, I only wish I found this forum when I was 18. Maybe I'd have worked in a factory Mon-Fri and Tesco on the weekend to fund my training.

I think I'd be right in saying one of the pilots role is to assess a situation and plan accordingly to overcome the problem. You need to work this out on yourself there is plenty on the subject on this forum so do your research.

I'm on the fence with it all. I have a good job in IT due to a degree and a great future in IT, I've picked up skills along the way and have a wide range if computing skills from programming / web design / desktop support etc I have a friend who told me of a contracting job paying £191 a day for a company who also own an flag carrying airline.

Now that's great - but I'd rather be a flying instructor. :ugh:... Better yet in a Jet.

It is all a matter of opinions....most are correct, a degree might not help you at all but nobody really knows for sure. That's the thing to remember when reading these forums, all are a matter of opinions

Have a think and do a lot of research....you will come to your own conclusions like many have.

your in exactly the same situation as me

I'm also in the same situation.

Think if another 9/11 happens. What then? The pilots who are laid off need to find a job to support themselves. If you have a degree that was taken 20 years ago it will always get you a better job then plain A-levels. It doesn't matter how long ago it was. Do you not go to Hospital and see 50 year old doctors practicing medicine?
WWW can't see 40+ doctors because their degree is covered in dust???:=
Everyone knows having a degree does no harm. I bet the life experience you gain from the 3 years at uni is a lot better than the experience you get working at Tesco. Any degree helps a pilot. Just like you said, pilots need to know a little bit of everything.
Just saying my opinion.

:ok:

Wow! I'm actually amazed at the rate of people who have posted their opinion and views. Thanks everyone :)

The university point I made seems to be the topic of the thread.
To tell you the truth, I actually really want to go university; Newcastle to be more to the point, heard its a brillant place and I just want to go for a life and the letters at the end.

Though, I have read somewhere that University Air Squadron offers a PPL or hours towards it. So if I can pass the selection that be brillant???

After University, I was thinking to go into Management or IT Consultancy and fund my modular training at the sametime.

Is it possible to have a full time career in Consultancy or IT and train to be an airline pilot the modular way?

And what would be the time frame at 21 years, before I get my (f)ATPL and a Type Rating on say a A320?

Ric

I think the main question that needs to be asked, is how badly do you want to be a pilot? If you know that nothing else is for you, then go for it now. Like people have already said, if you go to uni and then study in your spare time as you gradually get money together you could not be getting your license until your 25/26, then you have to get a job with an airline.

This could perhaps be another few years, by which time you've already "wasted" dare I say 8 years of your life doing something you don't really want to do! There's always going to be risks in whatever you do, life would be boring taking the safe route all the time!

Good luck in your future!

Think if another 9/11 happens. What then? The pilots who are laid off need to find a job to support themselves.

Yep, easier and less painful if you are 25 than if you are 30 - so train now and don't waster 5 years gaining a certificate for the downstairs toilet.

If you have a degree that was taken 20 years ago it will always get you a better job then plain A-levels. It doesn't matter how long ago it was.

You hold a basuic degree in computer science taken 6 years ago - you really think that's going to wow the potential employers?

Do you not go to Hospital and see 50 year old doctors practicing medicine?
WWW can't see 40+ doctors because their degree is covered in dust???
Everyone knows having a degree does no harm.

Umm, a medical degree takes 8 years and I don't think is really relevant to this.

I bet the life experience you gain from the 3 years at uni is a lot better than the experience you get working at Tesco. Any degree helps a pilot. Just like you said, pilots need to know a little bit of everything.
Just saying my opinion.

I bet the life experience you gain as an undergraduate DOESN'T give you half as good or relevant life experience as working full time in Tesco stacking shelves, then maning checkout, then becoming checkout supervisor then getting selected for deputy shift manager.. Hell of a lot more to talk about at interview than wittering on about getting your dissertation in on time and being Captain of the Geology Dept drinking squad.

My advice stands. Uni is a waste of time (3 years) and money (£15k) if you have no intention of using the piece of paper at the end of it.

I think at least half the people at University in the UK should not be there.

WWW

WWW, did you go to university? :hmm: I'm just detecting a little axe-grinding there!!

BTW, a medical degree takes 5 years; two years less than a veterinary degree!

Cheers

Whirls

There is no 100 percent safe route. So when you get a degree don't think your absolutely safe. Of course anything is safer than the aviation industry. Like one said, the future of aviation is the next 30 seconds. No one can predict what is going to happen.

Let's say you do 'waste' the 8 years of your life. You get a job for an airline. A few years later a whole bunch of pilots including yourself get laid off. You will get a job with a good salary and continue with the plans you had for your family. Your colleagues that did not 'waste' years of their life have to go job hunting. When they do get a job they realize that their plans for their family have to be changed because of the loss of benefits and salary. Forget that new house, new car, good life you had when you were a pilot it's all over if you 'wasted' your time.

So now I ask you, do you think that was a 'waste' of time???:=
Or was it logical thinking and not listening to the biased FTOs?

:ok:

This whole arguement is just going round and round in circles... Most people are biased, based on their own experiences.

Pt - you could also live your life as a pilot for the rest of your career only wishing you didn't waste your first 10 years in yet further education which is now somewhat useless.

Fact is whatever you go into there's risks, any career could end in tears. Let's say another incident is to occur and the industry plummits. Surely the additional time you spent flying was worth it? afterall it's what you wanted to do all your life, and you enjoyed every minute of it.

Yes, I am biased towards WWW's point of view. I spent months deciding what to do with my future, and I came to the conclusion that I want to spend my life in aviation not some desk job staring at a screen 9-5, 5 days a week. Why study for a job you don't even want to do?

Exhibitz I do agree with you in one point. I also do not want to spend the rest of my life sitting in front of a computer from 9-5.
Everyone here loves to fly, some of us want to reach in different ways. This is very similar to the modular-integrated discussion which never stops. Only Ric can actually know what he wants. If he wants to skip the degree great for him, it's his choice. At the end of the road we will all end up flying.

Exhibitz - if I was you in the final phase of an entry to a sponsored program I would also not do the degree. I have not applied to CTC because I am afraid they will reject me before I have my degree and never get a chance to show my abilities again. After having my degree I think I will have a larger possibility to get accepted into CTC, and I know if I am rejected I had the best education possible.

Maximum income for minimum effort!!! Why else do you think people go for finance qualifications? The fun of it?

Quite! Sez she, embarking on her THIRD career!!

However, I started work as a nuclear physicist (my degree) and later became a Chartered Accountant and now working for a commercial helicopter qualification.

If I'd had the foresight to know what I REALLY wanted to do at 18, I'd have joined the RAF instead of doing a degree in Theoretical Physics! But I didn't and I thank myself and my parents that I got a degree which did, in effect, open the doors for the second qualification which also, through income, opened the door to the third!

However, it IS a matter of individual choice and we can all pontificate to our heart's content but, ultimately, it has to be the OP's decision which I hope to Dear Lawd he doesn't make just based on some of the drivel written on here but on what he feels is right otherwise, if our hero thinks in the future that the decision is wrong, he will blame others resulting in a self-destructive emotion.

If one makes a decision which one believes to be the best at the time with one's own convictions, then any regrets are usually short-lived.

Cheers

Whirls

why don't you do both at the same time??? I'm doing modular flight training in local FTO and college -Aircraft Maintenance-(bachelor prog-3y). Afther I get CPL IR ME MCC(for a year) I'll start sending job application.
--can someone please explain me education system in U.K.
is there something like tehnical high schools(Aviation and Tehnical, Ele., Medical...) or just normal high school like every other???

There are several courses that integrate a degree alongside commercial pilot training, myself being most familiar with the BCUC and Cabair course.

This allows you to study for a BA(Hons) Degree in Air Transport, while in the first year completing your PPL, and in the second and third years completing all training and exams for your ATPL and then CPL, i believe that there is another thread in this section discussing this course. :ok:

A degree as a backup is only useful if you fail/lose medical close to finishing. A 15 year old degree in computers is going to do nothing for you. 15 years of work in the comp industry using that degree yes. The plain un-used degree no.

I was in the same position as you last year. I decided to go to University and study Business and Management for 4 years, I thought it would be a good "general" degree to have that would help me if things went wrong with my flying career e.g. losing my medical.

I actually left Uni. at the end of my first term because I couldn't understand why I was there and the prospect of spending close to £30,000 (much more realistic figure) on a degree which I didn't even want to use seemed pointless. Every lecture seemed a waste of my time and I didn't enjoy any of the subjects, it was irrelevant to what I want to do with my life.

My parents paid for me to take my Class One Medical before I left because they didn't want to see me leaving uni. and then fail to get one. I'm currently applying for integrated courses and although it's the more expensive route, by not going to uni. I'll be reducing my debt by £30,000. With regards to working before training, I would rather take out a large loan and then pay it off by actually having a job as a pilot rather than working in Tesco's and stacking shelves for 4 years before hand.

Doing a degree is a good option to fall back on but you can take a degree when ever you like, on my course there were around 5 mature students. If I were to lose my medical at say 30 I would rather have missed uni. and have been flying for 10 years instead of having gone to uni., then worked and then have only been flying for 3 years. Loss of medical insurance after 10 years should more than cover the costs of re-training or taking a uni. degree. Also as it has already been stated there are several options available where you can take a degree course along side your pilots training, for example at Oxford part of the course is a foundation degree in Air Transport Management.

Uni. was great fun and it was difficult to leave Birmingham and the people behind but I knew that I was making the right decision. Before I went to uni. I was having doubts whether it was the right decision, my parents knew I wanted to do my training but said I should try uni. and see what I thought of the degree. Having done that they accepted my decision to leave and have said they'll support me in my training.

It sounds cheesy but if you want to be a pilot then you just need to go for it.

Whirlygig - no axe to grind here. I did a joint honours degree at a red brick University in England and went on to use that degree in employment for several years post graduation so it paid for itself. Not to mention the three years of parties, UAS flying, girls, booze, crashing cars, stealing sheep... all the usual stuff.

But £12k in tuition fees, £9k in living costs and three years of your 77 on this planet is a Very Poor choice to attain something you might only use as a back up plan...

WWW

Me neither.

3 x tuition fees = £9,000
10 x £200 pm accomodation = £2,000pa or £6,000 for Total
Food/Bills = ?
Student life = ?

Total of £20k would be more like it. And that's if you live away, live at home and you'll have a degree for under £10k. :cool:

whirlygig

a medical degree takes 6 years plus 1 year of internship(in s.africa anyway). not 5 years

gb

For all those who say they don'y want to sit staring at a computer screen all day.................... What do you think your life as a professional pilot will be? Exactly that! And you don't get to flirt with the girls in the office:hmm:
Although the view out of my window is a hell of a lot better:ok:

GB - We're talking about the UK. In europe a medical degree always takes 5 years (excluding internship). But who would want to be a doctor before becoming a pilot. That would be stupid, you're just wasting 5 years. A degree only takes 3 years. I agree using 3 years of your life for a degree, but not 5!!!

Hi,

My advice would be to go to university. You can't get the same experience through the Open University, and besides, if you went to uni for the sole purpose of getting a degree it would be pretty boring.

I studied Physics at Leeds, which besides being a subject that's already interesting to me is a safety net in case the whole flying thing doesn't work out for one reason or another. I wouldn't want to work in aviation if I wasn't able to fly. ;-)

On top of that, you will have to learn to manage your own affairs, resolve disputes, work with people you can't stand, and expand your horizons in a way you can't really do anywhere else. I'm acutely aware that I need to find a job at the end of the course, and so many people seem to be under the belief that the banner of their training establishment will let them sail straight into the right hand seat, despite what the more knowledgeable people here keep pointing out. If my uni experience helps in the slightest, it'll be worth it.

Pragmatically, student debt is neither here nor there in the big scheme of things, and if you change your mind after six months and drop out, it's probably a damn sight cheaper than pulling out of an integrated course and then going to uni!!

rleungz - at your age do you really believe that there are sufficient supplies of cheap oil for an aviation career to last 40 years? There simply isn't.

With the fantastic expense of flight training it will be many, many years before your investment begins to pays off and aviation is entirely dependent on cheap oil.

Go get a degree as a backup - you'll need it. You won't have the opportunity to do so later on - family & other financial commitments will get in the way. And make sure it's a useful degree like engineering, business, medicine, law or computing (as you say). And avoid any aviation-related degree - that will be a waste of time in your pilot goals and will put all your eggs in one basket.

Like financial advise, career diversification is the key to reducing risk.

I hope I havnt p***ed off the world of PPRUNE over my question.

Well, for me not go to university would be an option I'll probably wo't take due to the fact its one of my goals to go to University and get a degree in the end.

I'm not going to University just because I want to go into a job in ICT at the end. I want to go because the subject of Computing and Management is something I'm really interested in and University Life is something I've been wanting to do since I was in Primary School (I also wanted to be fireman Sam too). So University is defo for me:)

On the other hand, I want to be a airline pilot and since 9/11 it has been harder to actually get training. I've had a long nice chat with my parents and I'd told them what I thought and they didn't like the option of me not going to University. They said get your degree first and work for acouple of years because the market of ICT is growing and be a good investment. Your degree will probably land you in a high paid job and you can take flying lessons along side your career at the weekends or days off and when it comes down to the big boys, ATPL and Type Rating you can leave your job and work on them.

I personally I need to concentrate on getting my degree and if I can get my Scholarship that be brillant.

My future action plan (18 year old making an action plan WHAT!!!)

Finish College
Go to University
Finish University
Get a Job

PPL (while still in job)
CPL (while still in job)

(F)ATPL (hard studying-jobless)
Type Rating (hard studying-jobless)

Search for an airline job age 23/24/25/27/28/29/30?

If anyone tell me how good or bad my basic plan is?

Ric