Again thanks for all the invaluable advice.

JAS

Did my MCC at BCFT on the L1011 - a bloody good laugh, lots of fun and the instructor had us in stiches...not exactly a PC chap!!!!!

Handling skills and jet experience???? - Forget it. It's nothing more than a VERY VERY VERY brief introduction to life working in a multi-crew environment....end of story!

When you get to do the real thing, all will become clear.....!!!!

As I work for one of the companies in question (and my colleague won't be able to get in the sim with the big head he's going to get from these comments!) I am reluctant to step in, but I feel as someone who chose to use a jet simulator for my own MCC I must correct a misconception Scroggs seems to be under.

For the majority of people who take an MCC the next trip they have on a jet simulator will not be on company training. For most it will be a simulator check ride to get a job! Therefore the handling skills one learns in a decent simulator, while being as restricted as Scroggs says, are valuable in that they are better than nothing. I certainly have had a massive confidence boost, knowing I an actually land a wide-bodied jet, assymetric, hand flying from raw data!

I agree entirely that the intention was that this be part of type-rating training, unfortunately the legislation was not worded that way, and the situation that has developed is inevitable. It is not, however, the fault of the schools, but is a combination of recently-graduated pilots' one-up-manship and airlines paring things to a minimum of cost.

The point of being placed in an unfamiliar simulator in your job interview is that your basic flying skills and your ability to absorb new information can be assessed. There is nothing wrong with having a bit of practise beforehand if you can afford it, though I would guess that the airline might disagree! However, we are talking about the relevance of an airliner simulator - and its associated costs - to MCC.

MCC is not a period of instruction in how to fly an airliner. It is a period of instruction in how to work together with someone you don't know in relatively high-stress situations, using basic (but representative) Standard Operating Procedures. To achieve this, it is helpful to have a believable environment, but it is not necessary for that to be representative of any particular type of aeroplane. A generic simulator (such as the FNPT2) is quite adequate, and considerably cheaper to run. This should be reflected in the costs of the course.

As I said earlier, the most important element of the MCC course is the quality of instruction, and I'm delighted to hear that BCFT's MCC is well regarded by those who have used it. However, that is quite independent of the device the instruction is given in. Do not choose your MCC provider on the basis of the simulator they offer.

If you wish to experience an airliner simulator with the intent of getting some practise prior to an airline assessment, I would suggest that you approach that as a separate issue.

Scroggs

I agree that this is rather something of an aside to the issue at discussion. The type of simulator is irrelevant to the gain in crew co-operation from the course. The benefit I have felt is purely in confidence, for job search, and nothing to do with the original purpose, which is of course flight safety and the most important benefit of the MCC!

Just about to head over to "Trijet 100 heavy" now for my last MCC trip.

VERY VERY GOOD. Ground school was fun, sim is great and yes the instructor is a pretty decent guy too...cheers Tony.

Highly recommended..well done BCFT!

I think I will go ahead with Bournemouth eventually. It is clear that the course must be well constructed and the tuition good. Although how much you can actually teach about working with others I guess is difficult to judge. Surly a lot of the skills should be naturally present in a Pilot? Or am I being daft?

You have learnt the first lesson: look deep within yourself :p

On a more serious note, having done it I can see why it was instituted. You do learn a lot about the issue of co-operation, starting with how much we assume abot co-operation and teamwork that is not the case, followed by how others have screwed up in the past, a large section of the groundschool.

What is the standars in order to get the MCC certificate?Do most people manage to get it after the 20 hours of simulator or is it common for some people to be required to do some additional training?

MCC
 

I have to agree with all the posts, I completed my MCC at BCFT with Tony and had a hoot, but most of all I learned a lot, ok the for's and against the sim is a personal choice but having to do it again I would do it in that sim providing the instruction was as good. The difference at the time to a generic FNPT11 was £300 so for me it was a no brainer and proved to be a good choice.

The one thing that this Sim did for you was to improve your team working skills at a higher or should I say smoother rate due to the sheer speed and rates of the sim as opposed to the generic prop otherwise no added complexities were above what you see in a generic sim.

You did get to complete some hand flying which was good, the LOFT route was excellent as was the Missed approach in LHR and divert to Gatwick, the de-compression part was very realistic as were the windshear programs that were added. it all happens quickly and a very serious course but what fun.

:ok:

There is no test - but it is not an attendance course. The FTO can withold the certificate if they feel that you have not put enough effort into it - but really you get out of it what you put into it.

In my experience, most people take 12-16 hours to really beigin to get "into the groove" when it comes to the SOP. By the end of 20 hours, the difference in the trainees is remarkable - they have covered so much ground and learnt so much that they are transformed.

But you have to work to get the best out of it.

An interesting point of view, and one not shared by the UK CAA, according to our Training Inspector.

737NG Simulator
 

I heard a rumouor that there will be a 737NG sim in Bristol which may be running a MCC course for the mid £2k range. Would be a more up to date aircraft type for interviews etc, I think the extra few hundred quid would be worth it at a interview, my thoughts anyway. Check them out www.flightexperience.co.uk

MCC Bournemouth
 

Hi all,

Just wanted to say a few words about the MCC course which I completed last week in Bournemouth.

The course lasts 8 days three of which are ground school and the rest in the TriJet 100 simulator. I booked the course through BCFT. The ground school was at the BCFT premises and the rest at European Aviation.

Have to say that European Aviation set-up was excellent. There is a class-room with with full size cockpit schematics where you can sit as long as you want and practice the procedures before and after the sim sessions. The sim sessions were also excellent. The guy who runs the course, Tony, was very helpful and has bags of experience as an air line captain. I think he now runs the course only through European Aviation http://www.euroav.com/ and thaey actually own the simulators.

Best regards and I hope you enjoy it if you choose to go there for your MCC!!
MT

Then he ought to check his own paperwork! The certificate is dependent upon "satisfactory" completion of the course and an FTO is at liberty to withold the certificate if they feel that has not been achieved. I had to threaten it once - got the student in question to pull his finger out.
As for personal recommendations, the trouble is that most people only ever do one MCC course and thus think that the one they did is the best! It's natural, we all do it.

MCC
 

I completed the MCC on the Tristar it was fantastic, that said the experience of full motion and the instructor giving us some extra raw data flying made it worth while.

All said and done its about working as a crew, so if the course is done correctly is does not matter what you have done it on, you will improve along the way while you are sweating as though you were doing circuits for the first time again

But its fun

:ok:

You may be wrong Scroggs!!!!
 

For once will you please please accept other peoples views. Just because you are a moderator doesn't always make you right. Any jet-sim time, be it flying or sitting in the back observing in invaluable to any student. Any piece of info that someone can take with them, be it big or small is still a bonus. I personally would rather take a sim-ride after spending some time in a full motion sim as opposed to stepping off a Duchess or Seminole and not having the experience of something bigger.

Just to put in my 10 pence worth.
If you just want an MCC certificate do it as cheap as possible. However if you intend to go down the airline assesment route spend your money on a decent course with a sim that puts you at ease when you are confronted with a 737/757 type for your assesment. The airlines dont mind you having practised on a decent simulator as they would expect an enhanced performance., however it makes you feel more confident so that the whole thing is not such a big surprise.
I speak as a 20000+ plot who is now an MCC instructor.

I assume you refer to the post I made in this thread on 22nd April 2005?

Let me share with you a couple of facts. I am an airline captain with over 13,000 flying hours. I have been in the professional aviation business since February 1977. I have been involved in recruiting and training for a considerable proportion of that time. I therefore have a reasonable amount of knowledge and experience with which to inform my opinions.

Perhaps you would care to point out exactly what in that post is incorrect, and what experience you have to justify the assertion that I am wrong?

Scroggs

A guy I know, did his MCC somewhere in Germany. They did a checkride at the end of it.