New FAA to JAA conversion rules?
On an American website there has recently been a suggestion that the FAA CPL and ATP to JAA FATPL/ATPL conversion rules are to be relaxed later this year. Does anyone have any idea what is under consideration?
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Chicago Convention
The JAA is being replaced by a new organisation
The European parliament have realised they are signed up members of the Chicago Convention. They want to reduce administative burden (oxymoron) Watch this space........... |
The JAA is being replaced by a new organisation EASA has recently published a consultative paper and proposed 'Essential Requirements for Pilot Proficiency', which, if nothing else, prove that the people responsible for implementing EU licensing rules do not have the first idea of what pilot licensing is all about. Oh, and the EU, not (yet) being a Sovereign State, is not a signatory to the Chicago Convention. |
The conversion process between JAA & FAA should be released for the end of the year.
The procedure draft is available HERE |
fly your link doesn't work....
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The link works just fine and I went straight to it. You will need a PDF reader such as Acrobat Reader .
OK this is all very interesting and will probably come into force just as I finish all the JAA exams |
That opens the road to more US training!
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I do not understand if once I will get an FAA type rating it will be valid in EU.
This will change the world of European aviation if is true |
Somebody can send me the pdf file in PM, still can't manage to open the link
Thanks a lot |
Eagljet
The proposal is to grant the holders of an FAA ATP who have 1500hrs on Multi-Pilot aircraft, since the issue of the said FAA ATP,a JAA Licence. You will have to sit one exam of 85 questions covering a range of subjects and the exam duration will be two hrs. I have contacted the CAA regarding this and am waiting for the reply. Until they tell me otherwise in writing I am going to continue with the JAA exams...only 5 to go.... |
"paramac146"
Keep us posted when you get a reply. "Billie Bob", What are your thoughts on this draft. |
It's not the hours requirement thats the hard bit 500hrs?? what only 250 more than before. Thats easily done. The exams (i mean 14 of them - red tape/protectionism blah, blah, blah) thats what needs to be reduced. And as soon as thats done then hey, all the more better (and happier)......Another 250hrs ontop of the 250hrs needed for an FAA commercial will probably cost you less then all the CAA bull$hit you need to pay for right now.
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The point is that the possibility to convert shouldn't compete with JAR schools which is one of the reasons why they have those hour requirements. You will probably be able to convert as before but note that the new conversion proposal states type rating skill test (in accordance with 1.240) instead of a practical test as of today.
Note that you still need to do the JAR groundschool for an IR and if you want ATPL theoretical knowledge and don't have an FAA ATP with 1500 multi pilot hours... you still need to do the 14 exams! At least that's my interpretation.. |
What are your thoughts on this draft. ---------- The current requirements for the holder of a FAA CPL(A) to be issued with a JAA CPL(A) by the UK CAA are: Hold a JAA Class 1 medical certificate Undergo theoretical knowledge training at the discretion of a Head of Training and pass the JAA theoretical knowledge examinations at CPL(A) level. Undertake flying training at the discretion of a Head of Training and pass the CPL Skill Test. Qualify for the issue of a FRTOL Further, if a multi-pilot type rating is required: Hold a valid JAA IR(A) Complete MCC training Complete the full 650 hours theoretical knowledge training and pass all 14 ATPL(A) examinations ---------- The proposed requirements will be: Hold a JAA Class 1 medical certificate Undergo (undefined) training and pass the four composite examination papers Pass the CPL Skill Test Qualify for the issue of a FRTOL Further, if a multi-pilot type rating is required: Hold a valid JAA IR(A) Complete MCC training Complete the full 650 hours theoretical knowledge training and pass all 14 ATPL(A) examinations ---------- The only advantage that I can see to the proposal is that there is no minimum training requirement laid down prior to taking the theoretical knowledge examination and Skill test. On the other hand, a minimum of 500hrs PIC as the holder of a FAA CPL(A) will be required to qualify for conversion. In both cases the full ATPL(A) theoretical knowledge examinations will have to be passed prior to training for a MPA type rating. |
I agree with Billie Bob on this one. For a laugh, download the pdf from the JAAsite. You want JAR-FCL 1.
Relevant pages, page 84 (JAR-FCL 1.250 (4)) and page 123. (JAR-FCL 1.285) It would seem if you have 1500 hours in MPA's then the conversion is a bit easier. Need only do 1 composite exam but I am not sure how the UK CAA will apply the JAR MPA compliance when sitting the LST. (I don't work for the UK CAA, I just wade through PDF's) :ugh: |
Hi there,
Does anyone know if his new proposal will apply to ICAO conversions as well ? I am just about to embark on a canadian CPL/IR and was hoping to convert next year - is this going to affect my plans ? Sorry for my ignorance, but I am a little concerned ! Thanks, dj |
The problem is the 250hours that you must have prior to gaining an FAA CPL isn't 250hours PIC. You might end up with say 120 hours PIC in total, so thats another 380 to build!
And the definition of PIC in the USA is different to here. God please someone tell me none of this is going to happen! |
Agreed, BAW744, but it's worse
For those who are doing their flight training with a view to obtaining a JAA frozen ATPL by converting an FAA CPL, the PIC requirements are far too onerous to be dismissed as lightly as has been suggested.
It is, as has been said, 500 hrs of P1 post CPL issue. So, any previous P1 hours are not applicable. Period. End of chat. This means, at the very least, 500 hrs of hour building. That's a lot of hour-building! 500 hours spent burning holes in the sky (and wallet) in a C152 is a lot of time to develop dodgy habits and get mind-numbingly bored. In reality it will probably mean that people wanting to go down the FAA-to-JAA conversion route will probably have to be FI's for some length of time. And FAA FI's at that. I suspect that this is why the 'post-CPL' comment is in there, the JAA want you to have 500 hours of 'CPL-type' experience. I'd be interested to know whether this is going to replace the existing arrangements or act in parallel with them. For example, get the 500hrs PIC if you want to sit the reduced JAR exams OR sit all the JAA ATPL's if you want to convert sooner. Sadly, I suspect the former is the case. This could leave a few of us in the poop, especially those who have already committed to doing their FAA ratings. This needs watching with interest. As somebody else said, this smacks to me of JAA protectionism again to some extent. Meh, perhaps I'm being unfair, but some of us remember a few years ago when they tried to stop any JAA training occuring outside of JAA member states... :hmm: |
what about the Conversion From Australian ATPL to JAR ATPL
Any links for that one ?? |
divorcingjack/captwawa - These proposals (and they are still only proposals) are the result of discussions between the JAA and FAA and relate only to conversion of an FAA licence. The JAA are not in discussion with any other national aviation authority concerning conversion criteria.
Charley - You may notice that the UK is the only JAA state that approves FTOs outside the JAA. This is solely because UK national law does not allow the CAA to refuse such approvals. However, when EASA takes over responsibility for licensing in a couple of years, the majority of EU member states (which are vehemently opposed to 'overseas' training) will be able, should they choose, to impose their view with the force of EU law. The battle is not yet over. |
Thanks Billiebob
I did hear something that CASA in OZ are talking about doing the same type of stuff,, however they need a a flight test to their ATPL licence... |
BB - not trying to start an argument here - just want an educated view on FTO's.
You may notice that the UK is the only JAA state that approves FTOs outside the JAA. At least the Sabena school is JAA qualified - the certificates are on the office wall. |
Keygrip - Fair point, I should have referred only to FTOs providing modular training, I was trying not to get lost in too much detail. The Lufthansa, Sabena and KLM operations are all satellites of FTOs approved in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands, respectively. All are training only for "all or part of the integrated ATP course" as permitted by Appendix 1b to JAR-FCL 1.055. The vested interests of the airlines concerned will probably ensure that integrated training outside the JAA continues.
It is modular training by FTOs with their main place of business in the JAA that is not permitted by JAR-FCL, such as that provided by OAT, CCAT, Comed and AFT. Modular training by FTOs with their main place of business outside the JAA is permitted by JAR-FCL, with a number of provisos, although no state is obliged to approve non-JAA FTOs. The lack of enthusiasm shown by member states (other than the UK) to undertake approval of these organisations is notable. Mind you, the last I heard the UK had not processed any new applications from non-JAA FTOs for over two years, despite having received over 20. This may, or may not, have something to do with the impending impact of EASA. I also hear that a number of US-based organisations got a particularly vicious savaging from the CAA in this year's inspection round, amid suspicion that there is a hidden agenda to cut back on 'overseas' approvals. |
Are they also changing the rules for military pilots wanting a JAA Certificate?
I have a FAA ATPL and I am a European military pilot. What is the easiest route for me to get the JAA Certificates? (Should I use my military backgound or my american ATPL) |
run,
JAR-FCL 1.020 (Credit for military service) will most probably not be changed in the near future, it was not part of NPA FCL 1-19. cheers, redbar1 |
SO IS THS REALLY CHANGED
What's the real scoop here. Is there a reduction in the amount of testing one needs to convert from FAA to JAA ATPL. I am in the middle of taking a distance course now and would like to know if I have to do all of this or not.
Thank You LAWN DART |
Anyone have any interpretations of converting an FAA IR to the JAA in this document?
"To comply with JAR-FCL 1.016 concerning the skill test and training". I have no links to JAR-FCL 1.016, but is this getting rid of the current 15 hr requirement? Anyone know? |
The last I heard from the CAA was that they were not going to 'facilitate' any more out-of-EU JAR training - but they can't 'ban' it.
So, potential US trainers could probably apply for approval, but there's nothing to say that the UK CAA is obliged to process the application quickly, or cheaply. And the cost of the inspection will, no doubt, include costs involved by the assessor.....?? Club Class return from Gatwick to wherever, plus accommodation and subsistence on top of an hourly rate, perhaps? The practices regarding safeguarding and marking of JAR PPL exam ppaers in some, though hopefully not all US schools is also known to the UK CAA. Train in EU for a JAA licence Train in the US for a FAA licence Train in Oz for an Australian licence. ....and convert from one to another in an agreed manner. |
ANY ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THE PROPOSAL FOR THE REDUCTION OF TESTING FAA TO JAA.
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I heard that this change in the rules was to take place in '05 or '06. Anyone else hear the same.
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The JAA/CAA are continually altering the rules and seem to be unaware of the human consequences of their actions.
One thing is for sure .. At the end of the day they will try and avoid any negative consequences for their exam income stream. Ludicrous costs for what are just a few MCQ tests... Of course I realise that all this is essential because of our 'special' airspace in Europe that is so different than anywhere else... :rolleyes: |
Anything news? What's the latest?
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I spoke to a woman at the CAA on WED last week about this. She confimed that it was in the works and that there would be a change for those who have the flight time. They told me to call back in 6 mo. for further developments. She said the changes could be in 6 mo. or 2 yrs, so they recomend that people still do the study for the 14 tests.
Good luck all Lawn Dart |
Well it's been six months since I started this thread and it's still going, albeit slowly. I'm part way through my FAA instructor ratings now and am still worried about the EASA thing. I just get the feeling that someone out there is making a big role of red tape and it's going to be wrapped tightly and quickly around the aviation industry in the not too distant future. I'm hoping that the 14 ATPL exams that I passed will still be worth something. If not, I guess I'm going to have to sneak in with a quick conversion to JAA.
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I keep thinking about converting my FAA ATPL(A) to a JAA, but get put off by the idea of all the exams!but under this new system its got me thinking again
I did the CAA CPL(H) exams 10years ago and the Heli atp was granted based on cpl exams then. My FAA ATPL is typed with HS125 and GV and i have 6500 total with 2000 on the jets 4500helis any one got any ideas as to what i may have to do under the new system to get JAA ATPL (A) I looked at the proposal stuff and what the 85 questions are based on, it looks like you will still have to study all the subjects to cover the questions:{ |
Dual Rated, you are correct in your post. To pass the single test one will still have to have the knowledge of all of the subjects.
The positives that I can think of are only one test fee (provided you pass), and the fact that you should only have one sitting. You will still need to take an observation ride on the HS-125 or GV. I think people with your qualifications should just get the conversion, the CAA just wants your Money! |
Why try and buck the system, it works, there are jobs in Europe, the pilots are very very well educated what more can a aviation industry ask for...
I have personally met many many 10 000 hr pilots who still have no real idea of how a IRS works, or why a HF radio frequency has to be changed with the time of day with sunspot activity....simple things... I dont see too many people on these forums going to bat for you and supporting the pro easy conversion case. |
Lostconcern, I hear what you're saying about bucking the system but who is an airline going to call; someone with 500 hrs who knows how to bulid a radio or someone who has 10,000 hrs of experience? It just seems silly that one needs to complete all of the tests to do what one has been doing for years.
Example: a pilot with an FAA ticket can fly an "N" registerd A/C in the UK, based in the UK but can't fly a "G" registered A/C. I don't get it, is there some incredible difference between the A/C? Do they fly differently because of the different letter? LDD |
LostConcern i think you missed the point, ive already sat the exams and been flying g reg stuff for 10years but on helis,so an abreviated paper for heli pilots crossing over would be better than starting all over again.
Most of the corperate world is Caymen, Bermudan Aruban N or mostly something other than JAA alot are for tax reasons for the owners.im not really interested in the airlines, so i keep kicking myself for thinking i need to convert. i know people that have both JAA and FAA and its the FAA ticket that gets used the most. i am amazed that there are 10000hr guys flying out there like you say, not knowing what they are doing.how did they get the jobs in the first place? i would also blame the operator in that case for hiring them! Im not looking for an easy solution to the conversion but one that makes more logical common sense. PS i did here one that if you had 1500pic on a type of more than 30 tonnes you could get a JAA licence issued, anyone heard that one? the problem is it has to be on AOC work! which i cant understand. whats the difference betwwen one GV flying round the world and another that is on an AOC except that they maybe better at doing the extra paperwork involved |
Sorry to bring this thread back,
But if someone can correct me here: Under these new proposals, a holder of an FAA CPL/IR with 500hrs PIC post licence issue can sit only 4 ATPL shortened exams to convert the CPL, but why on earth to convert the FAA IR to JAA IR must you sit all 14 exams ?! As stated in the document. |
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