MECR/SEIR/MEIR etc.

[special_ig]

I am trying to understand the requirements for Instrument ratings and Multi Engine Class Ratings and I am finding it all very confusing. Could anyone please help?

What I (think I) know:

MECR: 6hours twin time (all minimums of course)
SEIR: 50 hours single
MEIR: 55 hours, incl 15 hours twin time
SEIR to MEIR: 5 hours twin time

My questions:

Why would anyone take the MEIR route in stead of SEIR to MEIR conversion? Same amount of hours, only less twin time required. Or does the 15 hours twin time "automatically" give you the MECR too if you pass the MEIR test? Or do you need the MECR in order to do any ME Instrument Training?

Thank you very much,

Regards,

special_ig

[LFS]

You must already hold a MEP(LAND) class rating before commecning the ME IR, you can combine the multi with the CPL but not the IR. You are right if you complete a single IR then convert to the multi ir you need to take the full IRT again which is more than most people want. Also, the majority of the people would rather have the experience of the additional time on the twin, not to say having around 25 hours multi (using an FNPT I rather than an FNPT II) in your log book can be very attractive.

[Fogbound]

By taking the MEPL + MEIR route you will have a minimum of 21 hours on the multi. By taking the SEIR, MEPL, SEIR-MEIR conversion route you will have 11 hours on the multi. To be honest the MEIR skills test is hard enough with only 21 hours multi experience and most students opt to do a few extra hours on the multi before test.

By opting for the SEIR conversion route you may think that you will be saving money, but in the long run you will probably wish to do more multi flying which will add to the cost.

[N14HK]

LFS:

You must already hold a MEP(LAND) class rating before commencing the ME IR, you can combine the multi with the CPL but not the IR

Really? I know at least two mates who trained for the MECR & MEIR concurrently.

Perhaps the requirement is to pass the MEP Skills Test prior to attempting the Multi IRT?

[LFS]

You can train for the MEP at the same time as the ME IR (although it is much more sensible to start by doing the MEP then the ME IR). However, you cannot combine the two unlike the CPL where you can do an extended CPL course and one GFT which counts for both the CPL and the ME. At the end of the day trying to cut too many corners rarely benefits you in your training, hours or pocket.

[N14HK]

Whether or not you really want to be taught VFR nav in a PA34 instead of a PA28 is another matter. Sounds like a really good way to burn money even more quickly to me.

[mad_jock]

The requirement is that when you sit the IR flight test you must have a pass sheet for MEP. It dosn't have to be issued.

Saying that my CAAFU didn't bother looking at it. I presume the bloke who signed the 170A is supposed to check these things.
And lets face it you cover all the items on the MEP skills test on the IR just under the screens.

And personally I thought the CPL test in the twin was easier than doing it in a complex single. And the way it worked out with the hire of the complex single it was only 350 quid more for the twin than the single over the course.

MJ

[N14HK]

I suppose then you avoid the accursed PFLs at very least - maybe even glide approaches if you're really lucky (??)

PS I've worked out what MECR stands for, but where did it come from? My licence says MEP (Land), therefore I assume MECR is an unofficial term.

Perhaps 'piston' is a dirty word for certain schools who's marketing blurb features terms such as 'big jet' and 'airliner' so prominently.

[LFS]

On the combined ME CPL course you are not taught VFR Nav in the twin, you learn all the main parts of the CPL in a single (like a PA28), do some IF in the sim, then just do a normal 6 hour multi rating with 2 hours 170a left at the end.

[cfb]

A programme which provides for graduated learning with continuity might run as follows:
CPL - 25 hrs Arrow lV followed by the Skill test (2 hours)
IR - 15 hrs Arrow lV
IR - 15 hrs Turbo Arrow lV
ME - 6 hrs PA34
IR - 18.5 hrs PA34
IR - 1.5 hrs 170A
ME - 1 hr Skill test
IR - 1.5 hrs Skill test

This way you start on a complex aircraft, and then graduate upwards in both speeds and complexity throughout the course.
Using the Turbo Arrow not only gets you into airways quickly, but gets you used to the Seneca approach speeds etc.
If you're up to speed on the Seneca, then do some time in the Sim towards the end of the IR module, never at the beginning.

Total time 11 weeks, plus 1 week safety / reserve time.

regards,

cfb

[Fogbound]

Sim time

If you're up to speed on the Seneca, then do some time in the Sim towards the end of the IR module, never at the beginning.

CFB What is your reasoning behind this recommendation?

Dependent on the simulator qualification/approval level I can see advantages and disadvantages in completing sim time 1st or last, I would be interested to know why you would elect to use the sim last?

If you have a good FNPT2 with experienced instructors then sim time can surely be utilised highly effectively to familiarise the student with IFR flying and if the simulator is closely matched to the aircraft to be used for the training, then initial familiarisation is more cost effective and the transition to the aircraft is minimal.

If however the college has a tin box sim which is treated as such and the instructors do not consider sim time as proper training time then it is more worthwhile for the student to be in the aircraft than wasting time in ineffective training.

The simulators can be seen as "cheap training". Approx £100-£150 per hour versus a multi engine a/c approx £300 - £450 per hour. This is only the case if used properly. Will a student get more value out of 1 hour airborne than 2 hours in the sim? This will obviously depend on how the FTO view the use of simulators in training.

With the JAA leaning towards more time in the simulator and with new highly advanced simulators on the market, I refer back to CFB's quote and am interested to hear his reasoning.

(This is not meant to be argumentative in any way, I was just surprised to hear his recommendation and would like to know why?)