IR Conversion
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
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From: UK
IR Conversion
A quick question :
What kind of hours could be expected to be reasonable on the FAA to JAA IR conversion course?
I know minimum requirements are 5 hour sim and 10 hours in the plane. If anyone has a rough idea please post or pm me.
Cheers
AC
What kind of hours could be expected to be reasonable on the FAA to JAA IR conversion course?
I know minimum requirements are 5 hour sim and 10 hours in the plane. If anyone has a rough idea please post or pm me.
Cheers
AC
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
Good question, Aircart - I'd also be interested. Anyone with any input, could you please post here, and also specify what kind of experience you had when you did the conversion (total time, total instrument time, IMC rating, etc.)? 
RVR - not sure what question you're answering, but it's not the one Aircart asked! He was asking about hours, not costs. But what aircraft are you using for an IR that costs £360/hr?
FFF
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RVR - not sure what question you're answering, but it's not the one Aircart asked! He was asking about hours, not costs. But what aircraft are you using for an IR that costs £360/hr?
FFF
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Moving On
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 211
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From: UK
The reduction of hours on the IR course was really intended for those with significant IFR experience on an ICAO IR. I always advise our students to expect something in the region of 20 - 30 hours for the conversion if they have purely obtained an FAA IR with no further experience to go with it.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 139
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From: France
two friends of mine did it in 10 hours. I agree, they both had 2500+ hours and an FAA ATP.
I think that your best change is to do it as soon after your initial FAA IR or after 500+ of instrument flying later. That's when your are the most proficient.
It's hard to say. The standards are higher than the FAA in few spots : ILS deviation is only 1/2 scale instead of 3/4 scale and Minimum descent altitudes are +50 feet - 0 feet instead of +100 feet - 0 feet. En-route altitude hold is +100 - -100 feet like the FAA. You also do single-engine holds that you don't do for the FAA but the FAA is more difficult with the Partial Panel Approches that you don't do with the CAA.
Also,
Don't forget that people in Europe get their IR with 40 hours of training equivalent to the FAA. Also, these peoples have ~180 hours TT when they start their initial training, so far from being gods ... sorry for those who think that they ARE god ...
good luck.
PS : I'll let you know after I finish my conversion ...
I think that your best change is to do it as soon after your initial FAA IR or after 500+ of instrument flying later. That's when your are the most proficient.
It's hard to say. The standards are higher than the FAA in few spots : ILS deviation is only 1/2 scale instead of 3/4 scale and Minimum descent altitudes are +50 feet - 0 feet instead of +100 feet - 0 feet. En-route altitude hold is +100 - -100 feet like the FAA. You also do single-engine holds that you don't do for the FAA but the FAA is more difficult with the Partial Panel Approches that you don't do with the CAA.
Also,
Don't forget that people in Europe get their IR with 40 hours of training equivalent to the FAA. Also, these peoples have ~180 hours TT when they start their initial training, so far from being gods ... sorry for those who think that they ARE god ...
good luck.
PS : I'll let you know after I finish my conversion ...
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 68
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From: good old blighty
Extract from CAA LASORS
IR
The holder of a current and valid Instrument Rating Aeroplane (IR(A)) issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 by a non-JAA State may be issued with a JAR-FCL IR(A) providing the experience requirements as detailed in Section E1.2 have been met. Applicants must complete the following:
· Undertake IR theoretical knowledge instruction as determined by the Head of Training of an approved training provider.
· Pass all JAR-FCL theoretical knowledge examinations at IR level. Applicants who have passed JAR-FCL theoretical knowledge examinations at ATPL(A) level are exempted from this requirement.
· Complete a minimum of 15 hour instrument flying instruction (of which 5 hours may be in a FNPT 1 or 10 hours in a FNPT 2 or flight simulator.
· Complete any additional IR training considered necessary by the FTO
· Pass the 170A flight test
· Pass the IR(A) skill test (in accordance with Appendices 1 &2 to JAR-FCL 1.210) with a CAA Flight Examiner
Previous posts are quite right, it really is dependant on your previous experience. This states the minimum required hours for conversion. A good student could convert in 15 hours, a bad one.... who knows? Unfortunately an FTO cannot guess how much time you are going to need until they have flown with you at least once.
Also have you passed all 14 of the JAA examinations and do you already hold a JAA CPL? If not these also need to be looked at. I have replied to a more recent post with the details for CPL conversion. There are also a number of past posts on this topic, try a search for 'licence conversion' or alternatively 'Fogbound' as I have replied to a few of these posts answering the same questions.
The holder of a current and valid Instrument Rating Aeroplane (IR(A)) issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 by a non-JAA State may be issued with a JAR-FCL IR(A) providing the experience requirements as detailed in Section E1.2 have been met. Applicants must complete the following:
· Undertake IR theoretical knowledge instruction as determined by the Head of Training of an approved training provider.
· Pass all JAR-FCL theoretical knowledge examinations at IR level. Applicants who have passed JAR-FCL theoretical knowledge examinations at ATPL(A) level are exempted from this requirement.
· Complete a minimum of 15 hour instrument flying instruction (of which 5 hours may be in a FNPT 1 or 10 hours in a FNPT 2 or flight simulator.
· Complete any additional IR training considered necessary by the FTO
· Pass the 170A flight test
· Pass the IR(A) skill test (in accordance with Appendices 1 &2 to JAR-FCL 1.210) with a CAA Flight Examiner
Previous posts are quite right, it really is dependant on your previous experience. This states the minimum required hours for conversion. A good student could convert in 15 hours, a bad one.... who knows? Unfortunately an FTO cannot guess how much time you are going to need until they have flown with you at least once.
Also have you passed all 14 of the JAA examinations and do you already hold a JAA CPL? If not these also need to be looked at. I have replied to a more recent post with the details for CPL conversion. There are also a number of past posts on this topic, try a search for 'licence conversion' or alternatively 'Fogbound' as I have replied to a few of these posts answering the same questions.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 320
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From: Under bar stool
Having done conversions for FAA students to JAA IR's most guys do go over the 15 hours. A big problem is that the standard of flight training in the states can vary greatly, if you go to a good school your training will be good but then the price difference to the uk will be much less.
The airspace is different and I have seen 2 guys who did JAA IR training in the states struggle returning to the UK.
The airspace is different and I have seen 2 guys who did JAA IR training in the states struggle returning to the UK.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 139
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From: France
I agree with African Drunk. The quality of training in the US can vary widely. Also, a CFII in the US can have as few as 190 hours TT and teach IR which wouldn't be the same quality training that you get from somebody who has 800+ of instrument time for JAA minimum requirements. Also, all the IR training is done in a single engine airplane. Multi engine procedures are not very common.
On the other hand, FTOs in the UK propose 35 hours of FNTPII training and 15 hours of multi-engine airplane. I don't know how much better you can get after 15 hours instead of 7-10 hours which is US typical Multi IR training.
PS: LFS, you're right. 15 hours minimum for conversion.
On the other hand, FTOs in the UK propose 35 hours of FNTPII training and 15 hours of multi-engine airplane. I don't know how much better you can get after 15 hours instead of 7-10 hours which is US typical Multi IR training.
PS: LFS, you're right. 15 hours minimum for conversion.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 75
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From: UK
Thanks guys, I would expect about 20-25hrs max for the con, seems a bit sus that I was quoted 40+ hrs to do it!!!!!!!!
Just testing the water, flying in this country is a little different but at the end of the day not by much!
Will Pick my school carefully!
Cheers
A/C
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 75
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From: UK
007
I was on a conversion course at tripple A flying school and had done 16hrs they said I had to do about another 10 in the sim and prob 15hrs in the A/C.
I didn't feel I was where I should be for the amount I had done I had not even reached the route section so still had a long way to go!
Just wanted a reality check to see what the norm is
Oh well have been told by another company I should be good to go on the routes soon.
We will see
Cheers
AC
I was on a conversion course at tripple A flying school and had done 16hrs they said I had to do about another 10 in the sim and prob 15hrs in the A/C.
I didn't feel I was where I should be for the amount I had done I had not even reached the route section so still had a long way to go!
Just wanted a reality check to see what the norm is
Oh well have been told by another company I should be good to go on the routes soon.
We will see
Cheers
AC
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,450
Likes: 5
From: UK
I had a look at Triple A for something similar and he basically told me I was crap before he'd even seen me fly. Also quoted training times very close to full IR course. I'm not brilliant but I'm not completely useless either. They were convenient but lost my trade for their attitude and charging extra for credit cards and £500 in the black at all times. It's a buyer's market: these people need to get real.
Last edited by Megaton; 6th August 2003 at 15:13.
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 6
From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
I went to Tayflight in Perth when I converted my licences/IR. Total time from 1st flight to the end of the combined GFT & IRT was under 10 hours. That was for the UK ATPL, not JAR though.
I'd go there again in an instant. There's accommodation, meals, a watering hole & a CAA examiner on the field.
I'd go there again in an instant. There's accommodation, meals, a watering hole & a CAA examiner on the field.