Flight training stupidity
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 263
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From: Texas, USA
Ha ha ha Muggs ... I am an IT drone too ... Just about to take 4 months leave of absence from my job and work for my FAA commercial and instructor ratings.
Don't worry though ... I won't talk about IT in the plane.
Don't worry though ... I won't talk about IT in the plane.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 38
From: East Sussex
You are correct FFF, cash is only one factor in getting a flying job, there is aptitude, mental capacity, confidence, medical fitness and load of others.
The point I am trying to make (badly maybe) is this:
You can take 2 equally educated, skilled, well-rounded guys and start them on the wannabe trail....
They may be just as confident and able as each other, but if one happens to be 'Tarquin', he will have access to the best integrated ATPL training on the planet, an almost unlimited pot of hours in which to get it right for the IR, and (probably most importantly) his own type rating..... and the other guy, well, he can't afford his own type rating yet, but he's a damn good AFI at XXXXXXX flying club.
Now you send our 2 wannabes into the same interview, and who is the one that stands the best chance by miles of being hired? (Assuming they perform similarly on the day).
That's why it doesn't seem right that some guys can literally buy themselves into this profession (if they happen to have the aptitude, etc), while others like me and Ncusack have to bide our time and work for the privelige.
And yes, I have met many 'Tarquins' in the 8 years I have been flying, some were rich and well-balanced people.....
..... and some were inbred gits who had nothing going for them but their aptitude and their money. (And I KNOW some of them are with airlines right now.)
The point I am trying to make (badly maybe) is this:
You can take 2 equally educated, skilled, well-rounded guys and start them on the wannabe trail....
They may be just as confident and able as each other, but if one happens to be 'Tarquin', he will have access to the best integrated ATPL training on the planet, an almost unlimited pot of hours in which to get it right for the IR, and (probably most importantly) his own type rating..... and the other guy, well, he can't afford his own type rating yet, but he's a damn good AFI at XXXXXXX flying club.
Now you send our 2 wannabes into the same interview, and who is the one that stands the best chance by miles of being hired? (Assuming they perform similarly on the day).
That's why it doesn't seem right that some guys can literally buy themselves into this profession (if they happen to have the aptitude, etc), while others like me and Ncusack have to bide our time and work for the privelige.
And yes, I have met many 'Tarquins' in the 8 years I have been flying, some were rich and well-balanced people.....
..... and some were inbred gits who had nothing going for them but their aptitude and their money. (And I KNOW some of them are with airlines right now.)
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TrainRisky
Thanks dude........You got it in one with the above. This is the original point I was trying to make in the original post. I made it badly but that's because as I said I am bitter about having to drop the "dream". That's all!!!
Later
Ncusack
Thanks dude........You got it in one with the above. This is the original point I was trying to make in the original post. I made it badly but that's because as I said I am bitter about having to drop the "dream". That's all!!!
Later
Ncusack
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 1,692
Likes: 3
From: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Makes me laugh because we've got the exact opposite problem here in New Zealand - you can be a complete and total no-hope loser on the dole, wake up one morning and say 'oohh that flying looks like a bit of a laugh', go down your local polytechnic and get a taxpayer funded loan for the whole thing 
And as a consequence, every circuit pattern in the country is now chock full of hopelessly untalented daydreamers and benefit scrounging muppets all happily drilling holes in the sky, on their way to their airline promised land that they read about in the flashy brochure. Half of them never even pass their licences and even the ones that do, 99% of them will never work as pilots because every man and his dog has got a CPL, there are so many bloody desperate young hot shots out there working for free now that it seems you can't even get into a battered old turboprop night freighter without 6 PhD's and a few years of space shuttle command time.
Flying was much better when it was elitist
And as a consequence, every circuit pattern in the country is now chock full of hopelessly untalented daydreamers and benefit scrounging muppets all happily drilling holes in the sky, on their way to their airline promised land that they read about in the flashy brochure. Half of them never even pass their licences and even the ones that do, 99% of them will never work as pilots because every man and his dog has got a CPL, there are so many bloody desperate young hot shots out there working for free now that it seems you can't even get into a battered old turboprop night freighter without 6 PhD's and a few years of space shuttle command time.
Flying was much better when it was elitist
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,308
Likes: 1
One of the things about being at the top of the food chain in this business is that you often can help your kids financially. This assumes you havent fallen victim to all the things that can affect anybody in any walk of life, such as illness or divorce.
If one of my kids wants to enter aviation as a career then I will help them absolutely. They will have to jump through many of the same hoops as anybody else. Medicals, studies, examinations, more studies, more examinations, more medicals, applications, interviews, rejection letters, more of the same, etc etc. On the other hand they have the benefit of my financial situation (fingers crossed), inside knowledge, experience and advice. If I can give them any advantage, I most certainly will ! If they choose another career I will still do all I can for them.
commercial aviation is an expensive pursuit for most people. Some can afford to enter it. Some borrow there way in. Some obtain scholorships. Some save the money to enter. This is not dissimilar from private education or private healthcare. If your rich...great ! If your not then you have one more obstacle to overcome.
It may not be fair but it is life. You will come across examples of it everywhere you go and all through life. Far better to work around the obstacle than keep moaning about it. Plenty of people have achieved there goal in this industry despite the challenges (fair or not). Competition in this industry is fierce and if you don't like the hand you have been dealt either seek to improve your lot or give up. If you give up nobody will care, it just removes one more person from a very crowded market.
In summary your "ability to fly" is just one of the many abilities and requirements you need to stand a chance of obtaining a career in aviation. Even armed with all these attributes it still needs a liberal sprinkling of good luck to suceed by however you define success.
If it all proves unfair or too difficult don't worry, there are plenty of other careers out there and many of them pay far better wages.
If one of my kids wants to enter aviation as a career then I will help them absolutely. They will have to jump through many of the same hoops as anybody else. Medicals, studies, examinations, more studies, more examinations, more medicals, applications, interviews, rejection letters, more of the same, etc etc. On the other hand they have the benefit of my financial situation (fingers crossed), inside knowledge, experience and advice. If I can give them any advantage, I most certainly will ! If they choose another career I will still do all I can for them.
commercial aviation is an expensive pursuit for most people. Some can afford to enter it. Some borrow there way in. Some obtain scholorships. Some save the money to enter. This is not dissimilar from private education or private healthcare. If your rich...great ! If your not then you have one more obstacle to overcome.
It may not be fair but it is life. You will come across examples of it everywhere you go and all through life. Far better to work around the obstacle than keep moaning about it. Plenty of people have achieved there goal in this industry despite the challenges (fair or not). Competition in this industry is fierce and if you don't like the hand you have been dealt either seek to improve your lot or give up. If you give up nobody will care, it just removes one more person from a very crowded market.
In summary your "ability to fly" is just one of the many abilities and requirements you need to stand a chance of obtaining a career in aviation. Even armed with all these attributes it still needs a liberal sprinkling of good luck to suceed by however you define success.
If it all proves unfair or too difficult don't worry, there are plenty of other careers out there and many of them pay far better wages.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 391
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From: 'round here
When you say you wanna RHS job I take it you don't wanna batter round the sky in a !!!!!box 206 in some crap hole barely eeking out a living while getting some experience. Seems there are too many people chasing airline work off a fresh CPL who have forgotten why they started in the first place. Because they love flying, I hope. Pull finger, get out there and get your hands dirty. There is flying about, it may not be what you aspire to and you may have to kiss a** and sell your soul down the river for a pittance but it is a start.
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
Joined: Nov 1997
Posts: 826
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From: Scotland usually, and often other parts of Europe
Stillalbatross,
Many of us would give part of our reproductive sytem to fly a battered old 206/404 ropey old Baron flying newspapers or whatever dodgy cargo could be loaded. Unfortunately the JAR world seems to be *aimed* at producing low houred future jet F/O's.
Most people seem to be finishing training with 200-400 hours, unfotunately it is no longer allowed under JAR rules to do any single pilot ops until you have 700 hours. So people go and get an instructors rating to build up hours, which leads to an over supply of instructors, which leads to people offering to work for free etc etc.
Got to admit, it is becoming difficult remaining enthusiastic about this game. The costs of getting the licences and permanatly variable entry requirements (which cost even more money), really are just getting too much. Makes me wonder if it is just time to chalk it all up to experience, and stick with the day job. That at least pays the mortgage and I dont have to pay anyone to train me to work my computer.
Many of us would give part of our reproductive sytem to fly a battered old 206/404 ropey old Baron flying newspapers or whatever dodgy cargo could be loaded. Unfortunately the JAR world seems to be *aimed* at producing low houred future jet F/O's.
Most people seem to be finishing training with 200-400 hours, unfotunately it is no longer allowed under JAR rules to do any single pilot ops until you have 700 hours. So people go and get an instructors rating to build up hours, which leads to an over supply of instructors, which leads to people offering to work for free etc etc.
Got to admit, it is becoming difficult remaining enthusiastic about this game. The costs of getting the licences and permanatly variable entry requirements (which cost even more money), really are just getting too much. Makes me wonder if it is just time to chalk it all up to experience, and stick with the day job. That at least pays the mortgage and I dont have to pay anyone to train me to work my computer.
Last edited by Flypuppy; 9th June 2003 at 18:54.
Joined: May 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 900
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From: Surrey
I have to say I've read this thread with mixed feelings as I'm sure you would all classify me into the type of person that you are complaining about. I'd like to think I'm not like that.
My Parents, while not what I would call rich are well off. During my childhood my Dad worked overseas for much of it, I have lived in South Africa, Kenya and at the moment the US. Since the age of 12 I have lived away from home either at boarding school or at university.
I have loved flying as long as I can remember. I'm pretty sure it came when my dad took my to farnborough airshow when I was 8. While at boarding school I flew home every holiday (I've probably had about 50-60 long haul flights since going to boarding school) This just added to my want to become a pilot. In 1998 the RAF turned me down on eyesight requirements. I was absolutly devastated. I tried to put it behind me as best I could and got one with school, getting 9 GCSEs and 3 A levels. but the love flying never went away. I went onto uni to do a computer science degree, which is where I am now. My dad indeed paid for this and I haven't had to work my way. Once at uni I joined the uni gliding club and am now president of it, a fact which I'm very proud of.
Only last year did my friend on my gliding airfield tell me that the CAA had less stringent rules then the RAF. Obviously I did not and so since then I have been finding out all the information I could about commercial flying and to my joy it looked like it was becoming more and more possible for my dream to actaully come true.
My dad has indeed offered to lend me the money (please note, LEND me the money) for flight training. At the moment I am waiting to go down to gatwick to have a colourvision test to see if I can fly here. If not I plan to go to either the US or Australia to become a pilot there.
Through most of my uni career I have struggled with the work. I have never really enjoyed my course and found the subject matter difficult to say the least. I am in my 3rd year now and am unsure weather I am going to pass or not. If indeed I drop out then I'm still going to do whatever it takes to become a pilot. It has been my dream all my life and I plan to do anything it takes to make it come true.
I guess the reason for this post is just to point out that while I'm sure there are some people like you say, I doubt that there are many like you describe, and that alot of us love flying just as much as you and are just fortunate to have parents that understand the love we have and are prepaired to help us achieve it.
My Parents, while not what I would call rich are well off. During my childhood my Dad worked overseas for much of it, I have lived in South Africa, Kenya and at the moment the US. Since the age of 12 I have lived away from home either at boarding school or at university.
I have loved flying as long as I can remember. I'm pretty sure it came when my dad took my to farnborough airshow when I was 8. While at boarding school I flew home every holiday (I've probably had about 50-60 long haul flights since going to boarding school) This just added to my want to become a pilot. In 1998 the RAF turned me down on eyesight requirements. I was absolutly devastated. I tried to put it behind me as best I could and got one with school, getting 9 GCSEs and 3 A levels. but the love flying never went away. I went onto uni to do a computer science degree, which is where I am now. My dad indeed paid for this and I haven't had to work my way. Once at uni I joined the uni gliding club and am now president of it, a fact which I'm very proud of.
Only last year did my friend on my gliding airfield tell me that the CAA had less stringent rules then the RAF. Obviously I did not and so since then I have been finding out all the information I could about commercial flying and to my joy it looked like it was becoming more and more possible for my dream to actaully come true.
My dad has indeed offered to lend me the money (please note, LEND me the money) for flight training. At the moment I am waiting to go down to gatwick to have a colourvision test to see if I can fly here. If not I plan to go to either the US or Australia to become a pilot there.
Through most of my uni career I have struggled with the work. I have never really enjoyed my course and found the subject matter difficult to say the least. I am in my 3rd year now and am unsure weather I am going to pass or not. If indeed I drop out then I'm still going to do whatever it takes to become a pilot. It has been my dream all my life and I plan to do anything it takes to make it come true.
I guess the reason for this post is just to point out that while I'm sure there are some people like you say, I doubt that there are many like you describe, and that alot of us love flying just as much as you and are just fortunate to have parents that understand the love we have and are prepaired to help us achieve it.
Joined: May 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
From: Surrey
not really the point of my post.
I'm not aiming to drop out. I can pass this year with an non-honours degree which isn't awful. better then nothing certainly.
but i'll just have to wait and see.
I'm not aiming to drop out. I can pass this year with an non-honours degree which isn't awful. better then nothing certainly.
but i'll just have to wait and see.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
From: Midlands, UK
Blinkz,
If I were you I would work as hard as possible and get the highest grade I could. Certainly don't settle for a non-honours degree, which if my memory serves me correctly is lower than a 3rd class!
Good luck!
If I were you I would work as hard as possible and get the highest grade I could. Certainly don't settle for a non-honours degree, which if my memory serves me correctly is lower than a 3rd class!
Good luck!
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 1,692
Likes: 3
From: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
I say go for it blinkz, and don't take any crap from the people that want to call you names, it's a bloody hard road to the top no matter if you're financial or not. I've seen plenty of both rich kids and poor kids alike, get bitter and twisted and fall by the wayside on the road to that airline seat, in fact I suspect there's one or two of them posting on this very thread even
I'm with Bealzebub on this one ... any kid of mine that wants to take up flying, is going to get the full backing of dad's big fat airline captain's wallet, and no apologies
Depending on how old you are, there are two ways to look at the university thing ... if you're already on the north side of 26-27 then it might be worth directly pursuing the flying career ... but if you're only a young school-leaving type of whippersnapper then it's definitely worth finishing the degree, and maintaining your sanity by doing your PPL and some hours building at your local aero club during your final university year.
Now then, I don't suppose your dad wants to fund some random bloke from the internet into buying a B737 rating by any chance?
I'm with Bealzebub on this one ... any kid of mine that wants to take up flying, is going to get the full backing of dad's big fat airline captain's wallet, and no apologies
Depending on how old you are, there are two ways to look at the university thing ... if you're already on the north side of 26-27 then it might be worth directly pursuing the flying career ... but if you're only a young school-leaving type of whippersnapper then it's definitely worth finishing the degree, and maintaining your sanity by doing your PPL and some hours building at your local aero club during your final university year.
Now then, I don't suppose your dad wants to fund some random bloke from the internet into buying a B737 rating by any chance?
Joined: May 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
From: Surrey
I am working as hard as possible, but I still don't know if I'm going to pass this year. I'll just have to wait and see.
oh and i'm 22. so not past the hurdle yet.
oh and i'm 22. so not past the hurdle yet.
Last edited by Blinkz; 10th June 2003 at 18:38.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Yorkshire
Blinxz (and all wannabes) you must go for it.
I too couldn't pass RAF med - short sighted. Now got Dental and Medical degrees and am a consultant surgeon.
I finally realised my dream learnt to fly finally last year when young friend and colleague died unexpectedly rapidly followed by two friends.
Therefore heed below:
1)Life is short
2)Life is NOT fair
3)Having a good, safe, well paid (relatively) job, house, cars etc.is v. nice but does not equate to happiness.
4)Good luck
I too couldn't pass RAF med - short sighted. Now got Dental and Medical degrees and am a consultant surgeon.
I finally realised my dream learnt to fly finally last year when young friend and colleague died unexpectedly rapidly followed by two friends.
Therefore heed below:
1)Life is short
2)Life is NOT fair
3)Having a good, safe, well paid (relatively) job, house, cars etc.is v. nice but does not equate to happiness.
4)Good luck
I say there boy
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere
I'm commenting on this thread a little too late, but, as ever, RVR is bang on the mark.
There are of the order of 6,000 airline jobs* in the UK and 14,000 medically fit UK-based holders of a CPL or higher**.
That means there are 8,000 people qualified for airline jobs, who are not currently employed in the UK in an airline job. These people are:
- flying overseas
- instructing/meatbombing/taxi/towing gliders/bizjets/other GA
- not flying professionally
Now some of these GA flyers will not be interested in an airline job (often older GA pros), some pilots flying overseas will have no current plans to return to the UK, and some people who are not flying professionally will have almost given up on their dreams but will be keeping a valid medical to fly privately (I slip inexorably closer to this category with time).
However even stripping out these people from the magic 8,000 number, that still leaves a hell of a lot of people chasing jobs.
And that is before any influx of European-based JAA licence holders are taken into account (which anecdotally seems to be often more a net import of pilots).
On top of that, between 100 and 400 new CPL/IRs are issued in the UK every year ***.
Anyone entering training at this point in time has to be aware of the scale of these numbers. Had I appreciated the scale of these numbers a few years ago, I'd have thought a lot harder about getting a professional licence (I'd have probably got a PPL/SEIR and flown privately). However I committed to professional training right in the middle of the hiring boom, prospects seemed different then.
The problem is, despite the high cost of entry to the market, we are slipping toward the situation that has dogged Australia and New Zealand: way too many people with the motivation and access to the necessary funds for professional pilot training, compared to the number of professional pilots required.
It's a tough decision. Best of luck whatever decision you take.
cheers!
foggy.
* Estimate I've seen made before, based on doubling BA's pilot headcount.
** CAA's own figures of professional fixed wing licence holders who hold valid class one medicals last renewed at a UK-based AME - these are the closest data to the numbers of UK-based commercial pilots that are in the public domain.
*** CAA's own figures for IR issue to professional fixed wing licence holders.
There are of the order of 6,000 airline jobs* in the UK and 14,000 medically fit UK-based holders of a CPL or higher**.
That means there are 8,000 people qualified for airline jobs, who are not currently employed in the UK in an airline job. These people are:
- flying overseas
- instructing/meatbombing/taxi/towing gliders/bizjets/other GA
- not flying professionally
Now some of these GA flyers will not be interested in an airline job (often older GA pros), some pilots flying overseas will have no current plans to return to the UK, and some people who are not flying professionally will have almost given up on their dreams but will be keeping a valid medical to fly privately (I slip inexorably closer to this category with time).
However even stripping out these people from the magic 8,000 number, that still leaves a hell of a lot of people chasing jobs.
And that is before any influx of European-based JAA licence holders are taken into account (which anecdotally seems to be often more a net import of pilots).
On top of that, between 100 and 400 new CPL/IRs are issued in the UK every year ***.
Anyone entering training at this point in time has to be aware of the scale of these numbers. Had I appreciated the scale of these numbers a few years ago, I'd have thought a lot harder about getting a professional licence (I'd have probably got a PPL/SEIR and flown privately). However I committed to professional training right in the middle of the hiring boom, prospects seemed different then.
The problem is, despite the high cost of entry to the market, we are slipping toward the situation that has dogged Australia and New Zealand: way too many people with the motivation and access to the necessary funds for professional pilot training, compared to the number of professional pilots required.
It's a tough decision. Best of luck whatever decision you take.
cheers!
foggy.
* Estimate I've seen made before, based on doubling BA's pilot headcount.
** CAA's own figures of professional fixed wing licence holders who hold valid class one medicals last renewed at a UK-based AME - these are the closest data to the numbers of UK-based commercial pilots that are in the public domain.
*** CAA's own figures for IR issue to professional fixed wing licence holders.
Last edited by foghorn; 11th June 2003 at 18:02.
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,498
Likes: 1,845
From: England
Well the 'market' these days truly is pan-European post JAR.
I was flying recently with a Skipper who within the last 4 years had worked for an Italian charter airlines, then Sabena, then a UK low cost airline and was now off to their new Paris base with an eye on a future move to a possible base back in Italy.
A decade ago he would have had to apply for work permits in each country. He would have had to apply to each countries CAA for a national license. Each CAA would have stipulated different hoops for him to jump through each time.
Its all change now of course.
This means that whereas it was once possible to make an educated guess at the UK pilot market - nowadays it is almost impossible to do so.
Rumours are gathering pace about BA restarting DEP recruitment by the year end and it seems unlikely that there will be any more airline failures.
For sure a period of consolodation lies ahead - Eddington and most analysts have been forecasting only 5 big airline in Europe for blimmin ages now. Such consolodation should result in efficiency savings which normally means reduced headcounts. The continental economy remains moribund and there is a growing threat from the loony Green and NIMBY lobby who are hell bent on imposing taxes on aviation.
On the flip side - the EU aviation market is underdeveloped by US standards. If Europe grows to only two thirds the size of the US airline business it will have to nearly double in the next decade.
Good luck,
WWW
I was flying recently with a Skipper who within the last 4 years had worked for an Italian charter airlines, then Sabena, then a UK low cost airline and was now off to their new Paris base with an eye on a future move to a possible base back in Italy.
A decade ago he would have had to apply for work permits in each country. He would have had to apply to each countries CAA for a national license. Each CAA would have stipulated different hoops for him to jump through each time.
Its all change now of course.
This means that whereas it was once possible to make an educated guess at the UK pilot market - nowadays it is almost impossible to do so.
Rumours are gathering pace about BA restarting DEP recruitment by the year end and it seems unlikely that there will be any more airline failures.
For sure a period of consolodation lies ahead - Eddington and most analysts have been forecasting only 5 big airline in Europe for blimmin ages now. Such consolodation should result in efficiency savings which normally means reduced headcounts. The continental economy remains moribund and there is a growing threat from the loony Green and NIMBY lobby who are hell bent on imposing taxes on aviation.
On the flip side - the EU aviation market is underdeveloped by US standards. If Europe grows to only two thirds the size of the US airline business it will have to nearly double in the next decade.
Good luck,
WWW
