Best approach?

[hkwannabe101]

Hello all,

I am new to this, so bear that in mind when you read my questions!!

I will be off to the USA later in the year to get my PPL done in order to make a start on my modular training. Would have been keen to a ab-initio course at somewhere like Jerez, but simply can't afford it.

What I would like to know is:

Is there a specific route of training, ie to you have to do all the parts in a definate order?

Can I realistically get it all done in 12-18 months?

I know that the job market is very bad at the moment for everyone, but what do people think that prospects over the slightly longer term, ie in 2 years time?

Thanks for any help I get with this

BY the way, before anyone asks; I have only done 5 hours of flying, C152 - loved it, am hooked and I know that this is what I should be doing with myself for the rest of my life. Nobody could possibly make me think differently

hkw101

[FlyingForFun]

Hi HK,

First of all, I assume that you're after a JAR (UK-issued) frozen ATPL? If not, then what I'm about to say might not apply to you.

There is no definite order for doing things, although some things have to be done before others. But probably the most common way is as follows:

- PPL
- ATPL written exams
- Hour building
- CPL
- IR
- MCC

There is another thread running about doing the IR befoer the CPL, so refer to that for more information on these two.

Probably the most common variation on this is to do the hour-building before the written exams. The problem with that is that you'll be out of practice when you come to do your CPL course, and may "waste" a few hours getting back into it again. Of course you can combine the two, e.g. study weekdays and hour-build at weekends, or do 50 hours of hour-building, then the exams, then anotehr 50 hours... use your imagination a bit!

Hope that helps... good luck!

FFF
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[hkwannabe101]

Hi FFF,

Indeed that does help, thanks very much.

Yes, I should have mentioned that I am after JAR fATPL.

I think your advice about doing the hours building after ATPLs is a good, as I am planning to be in the UK to do the ATPLs over the winter months. (How long does that course take?) It might fit in quite well.

Do I need to have a certain number of hours to do the ATPLs, if so how many?

I will look at the threads regarding CPL/IR.

Thanks again for your help

hkw101

[FlyingForFun]

There are two ways of doing the ATPLs for a modular course - either residential, or distance learning.

I would always recommend residential if possible. You sit in class, have instructors to teach you everything, and you are constantly surrounded by other students, so you have plenty of support and encouragement. I think a residential course take a few months, but I wasn't able to do one, so I didn't really do any research into it - others will be able to give you more details.

Reasons for doing distance learning would be if you can't afford the cost of residential, or if (as was the case for me) you can't afford the time. With distance learning, asking how long it will take is like asking how long is a piece of string. It took me 12 months, that was studying purely at weekends and after work. If you're going to study 40 hours a week then you can do it in much less. In theory, it should be possible to do it in the same time as a residential course, if you put in the same (or even more) hours per week. I would imagine it would be very hard to remain sufficiently motivated to keep this work level up for several months, but there are people who have done it so it's not impossible.

You don't need any specific hours requirements to do the exams, you just need a PPL. For some subjects, having a little more flying time might make the subject slightly easier to understand, but there is so little of the syllabus which falls into this category it's really not worth worrying about. The possible exception would be if you decided to do an IMC rating during your hour-building - I struggled to learn entries into holds because I'd never flown a hold, for example. But it's certainly not worth changing all your plans for.

FFF
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[Julian]

I would do the ATPL writtens and the hour building at the same time, otherwise you would not fly for at least 12 months!

The one course missing from FFFs list, which most sutdents get to help with the hour building is the Flight Instructor rating. Its not necessary if you have lots of cash to pay for your own hours but most people prefer to fly and get money for it - even if it is only £10/hr.

The MCC is not a requirement to go all the way to ATPL but it has become a requirement to get a job, airlines now insist you hold one before they will even consider you for an interview.

[Send Clowns]

Julian

That is not correct. Without a CPL it is not legal to be paid for flying under JARs. Youa re thinking of the old CAA system. Since a PPL needs, in effect, as many hours to start a flight instructor rating as a CPL people no longer take FI(R) to hour build.

Also the groundschool may only take 6 months as mine did, not nwecessarily 12. I did not fly for that time, and went straight into the CPL without suffering for it. I did have quite a few more hours than most at that stage, but some hour building before and just a few hours after the groundschool is perfectly adequate. However I do agree that doing some hour building during groundschool (not too much, the course is very tough) can be a good idea.

Send Clowns
BCFT Groundschool Instructor

[Julian]

Send Clowns,

Yes I am aware that you cannot be paid without the CPL, I was actually thinking of hour building post CPL as its rare these days to be employed with 250hrs total although not unheard of. Apologies not not wording it a bit more clearly, my fingers sometimes get ahead of my brain! Friends of mine have gone on to get their FI to build hours and experience in prep for the airlines and of course it keeps you current in the meantime.

You are able to obtain a FI without a CPL and can instruct as long as you do not recieve any renumeration. Although judging by threads on this subject on PPrune previously you will not be very popular!!! Havent got my docs to hand and 'search' being unhelpful today but think you require PPL+Exams+FI to instruct for no renumeration, I know someone will correct me if I am wrong.

[hkwannabe101]

Thanks for your help guys. It all helps me to get a better understanding of what I need to do, and how I need to do it.

I am planning to do full residential ground school, and hope to get that done in 6 months. I will leave some of the hour building for after that to act as a refresher course for myself before the CPL.

Thanks again for your posts

hkw101

[Dude~]

I believe you actually require a PPL and 100 hrs total time to sit the ATPL exams, not just a PPL.

Do the lot in whatever order you want and how your circumstances allow. Blah blah blah.

[No. 2]

Dude~

Where did you read that you needed 100hrs total? LASORS state that an ICAO PPL only is required to commence a modular ATPL theoretical course. However, it doesn't mention requirements about sitting the examinations apart from the minimum study hours. I seem to remember reading on a school's website that 100hrs experience was a recommendation before starting the course?

[FlyingForFun]

I don't recall anyone asking me how many hours I had when I sat my ATPL exams. I think No. 2 may be correct that some schools recommend 100 hours, although as I said I can't see why 100 hours would give you very much advantage over 45 hours.

FFF
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[Pilot Pete]

Julian

I think you are incorrect in saying that MCC is required by ALL airlines. Some do not require it, but they are few and far between I agree and each individual must weigh up the 'risk' of not taking it. Not trying to be pedantic, just trying to clarify for hkwannabe101.

PP

ps some airlines are happy to throw it in as part of your initial type rating.

[hkwannabe101]

Thanks again for all the info chaps.

PP, I must say that your posts about your 'story' are excellent, and have been a great help to me, and I'm sure countless others who have read them.

Due to a change in circumstances I am now in a position to opt for a fully integrated ab-initio course. I am keen to do this in Spain, mainly for the climate and thus the fact that I should be able to fly most days. I'm not going to ask about which FTOs I should look at as I know there are countless other threads going on about this very subject.

My question is this:

other than the money, what are the advantages of modular over integrated, and vise versa. I haven't had long to think about it, and I would value some info regarding other readers' experiences and their suggestions.

Thanks again in advance for your help.

hkw101

[FlyingForFun]

Well, I don't know very much about integrated courses, but in the absence of other replies, I'll try to set the ball rolling.

Advantages of modular:

• Do the course at your own pace
• Easy to switch schools if you become unhappy with your school
• Chance to get more variety, e.g. use different schools, different countries, different aircraft types for each phase if you want
• You feel more in control
• Can fit the course around other commitments

Advantages of integrated:

• Everything arranged for you - far less planning required on your part
• Continuity of training, e.g. similar aircraft, same instructors all the way through
• Less hours required to get frozen ATPL (although this could be considered a disadvantage)
• Exposure to an airline-like environment
• Potential for being referred to airlines

The last two are very contentious, and have been discussed at length on other threads. I'm not sure that either of them really exist, or give you any benefits if they do exist, but you will no doubt hear of them as advantages of the integrated course from others, which is why I've listed them.

Now, let's hear from someone who actually knows something about integrated courses!

FFF
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[j0_ey]

I read from www.ccat.co.uk that you needed 150hrs before taking the ATPL theory...

Are there any age restrictions though? I presume that you have to be 18

[Send Clowns]

There is no hours requirement in JARs to start the ATPL theory course, though each student must hold a valid PPL issued by an ICAO nation. Some of my students have fewer than 150 hours, and I teach ATPL groundschool. The 150-hour requirement is to start a CPL course module, or perhaps a requirement CCAT themselves make, though I cannot think why they might.

There is an age restriction to hold a CPL (18 years) or an ATPL (21 years) but none to sit a course per se (except of course the minimum age to hold your PPL, as that is a course requirement. It gets complicated!).

I would like to point out that apart from low hours each advantage of the integrated course suggested by FFF also applies to any modular course if all modules are taken with the same flight training organisation (FTO). As FFF says the "advantage" of a shorter flying course is a disadvantage when applying for the type of job most of us will start in.