Modular Training - Atlantic Flight Training
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Joined: May 2003
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From: Midlands
Modular Training - Atlantic Flight Training
Hi all,
I'm looking around at training providers near to the Midlands for Modular training to fATPL.
One that is fairly local is Atlantic Flight Training based at Coventry.
Has anyone any advice/experiences of this organisation? They seem a midpoint between the likes of Cabair/Oxford and going it alone through the minefield of local flying schools (In terms of cost, anyway).
Cheers
I'm looking around at training providers near to the Midlands for Modular training to fATPL.
One that is fairly local is Atlantic Flight Training based at Coventry.
Has anyone any advice/experiences of this organisation? They seem a midpoint between the likes of Cabair/Oxford and going it alone through the minefield of local flying schools (In terms of cost, anyway).
Cheers
Joined: May 2001
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Nice new machines to train on.
But from what I saw of the Blond bint IR instructor have a written contract that you don't have to train with her.
The verbal abuse I heard her give a student while coming out of the FNPT was out of order. Never mind the couple of good points followed by the bollocking then a good point to lift the lession. It was just your !!!!e get your act in order. And it isn't outa character so I am told by the Fuglys.
Which is a complete shame because all the other instructors I heard there seemed pretty decent.
MJ
But from what I saw of the Blond bint IR instructor have a written contract that you don't have to train with her.
The verbal abuse I heard her give a student while coming out of the FNPT was out of order. Never mind the couple of good points followed by the bollocking then a good point to lift the lession. It was just your !!!!e get your act in order. And it isn't outa character so I am told by the Fuglys.
Which is a complete shame because all the other instructors I heard there seemed pretty decent.
MJ
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2003
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From: Midlands
Good equipment is half the battle I suppose, but their services ain't cheap.
The IR is a little way off at the moment. I'm sure every organisation has varying characters in terms of instructors. How does this compare with the big boys?
N14HK your response has intigued me, including leaving me a little confused.
The IR is a little way off at the moment. I'm sure every organisation has varying characters in terms of instructors. How does this compare with the big boys?
N14HK your response has intigued me, including leaving me a little confused.
Joined: May 2001
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They have a brand new seminole so things should work out an awful lot cheaper than before.
And yes the instructor makes a bigger difference than the school.
(Go for the personal recomendation of the instructor not the school)
I did my IR with Leeds flying school with Kevin Rowel. If he left the school I doudt very much if would recomend them.
MJ
And yes the instructor makes a bigger difference than the school.
(Go for the personal recomendation of the instructor not the school)
I did my IR with Leeds flying school with Kevin Rowel. If he left the school I doudt very much if would recomend them.
MJ
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: North of CDG
Obs cop - did my IR with Atlantic last year, and would recommend it (no, I don't get any money out of it). Roger and Les are two of the best instructors I've met, with a lot of airline experience as training captains, so you won't do anything on the sim that they haven't seen before... They use an FNPT II for the sim bit, so the CAA has allowed the FTO to do 35 out of 50 hours on it before transiting to the real thing - therefore lowering the minimum hours quote (£ 9,800 inc. or so if I recall correctly). It's also VERY realistic, the airports represented are not all generic (at least not COV or LBA), the flight profile prints are much better than a FRASCA's. Helps for debrief.
The flying bit is now done on a brand new Seminole - I checked it out last Tuesday, and it's beautiful (250 hrs. on the tach), with all the navaids you need (and more). Plus, at £235/hour, it's way cheaper than the Cessna 310 (now hangar queens). Also, being a Piper design, no critical engine... If you have to wait at the holding point (say, for an Electra to land and vacate), they will knock 0.1-0.2 hr. off the tach. Quite honest! Also, you "pay as you go" (I'm a great believer in keeping the FTOs on their toes).
Was instructed in flight by Andy (the CFI) and Richard, no worries there, they have a wealth of experience. One last word of advice: while I was there (Late Sept- Early Dec.), eight of us took the IR skill test (from Leeds); nobody failed, there was 3 full first time passes and five "partials" (all of whom successfully passed). Quite a good statistic...
Don't hesitate to visit them.
Cheers.
P.S.: if you don't like your instructor, like in any other FTO... ask for an instructor change!
The flying bit is now done on a brand new Seminole - I checked it out last Tuesday, and it's beautiful (250 hrs. on the tach), with all the navaids you need (and more). Plus, at £235/hour, it's way cheaper than the Cessna 310 (now hangar queens). Also, being a Piper design, no critical engine... If you have to wait at the holding point (say, for an Electra to land and vacate), they will knock 0.1-0.2 hr. off the tach. Quite honest! Also, you "pay as you go" (I'm a great believer in keeping the FTOs on their toes).
Was instructed in flight by Andy (the CFI) and Richard, no worries there, they have a wealth of experience. One last word of advice: while I was there (Late Sept- Early Dec.), eight of us took the IR skill test (from Leeds); nobody failed, there was 3 full first time passes and five "partials" (all of whom successfully passed). Quite a good statistic...
Don't hesitate to visit them.
Cheers.
P.S.: if you don't like your instructor, like in any other FTO... ask for an instructor change!
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: UK
I am somewhat disturbed by comments about a certain Instructor at Atlantic. I know someone who has also been on the rough end of her tongue!
Instructing is a very demanding task and the way you do it can either make or break the trainee - if you lose the respect of your trainee and make them look and feel small you can literally ruin a potential career.
If you feel the only way you can get your message across is by shouting and screaming, then I suggest you are in the wrong job!!
Instructing is a very demanding task and the way you do it can either make or break the trainee - if you lose the respect of your trainee and make them look and feel small you can literally ruin a potential career.
If you feel the only way you can get your message across is by shouting and screaming, then I suggest you are in the wrong job!!
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2003
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From: Midlands
I find it interesting that a paying customer puts up with such shouting and abuse. If that happened to someone learning to drive, they would just change instructor/school.
Certainly with the amount of money involved in the IR the power is with the cheque book. Even more so that AFT do not ask for money up front.
Hmmmmm,
pondering long and hard over where to train.
Certainly with the amount of money involved in the IR the power is with the cheque book. Even more so that AFT do not ask for money up front.
Hmmmmm,
pondering long and hard over where to train.
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Bournemouth
Obs Cop,
Gloucester is not so far from the "Midlands", and it has a very training orientated Airport.
I did my CPL/ME/IR straight through with Westflight Aviation (ex OATS guys) - very good, very professional and a first time IR.
If you want to call them, 01452 857775.
Firepig
Gloucester is not so far from the "Midlands", and it has a very training orientated Airport.
I did my CPL/ME/IR straight through with Westflight Aviation (ex OATS guys) - very good, very professional and a first time IR.
If you want to call them, 01452 857775.
Firepig
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: wouldnt U like to know
I too live in the Midlands and did ponder about attending AFT for the Flight Training. Looks like I had a lucky escape, from what I hear.
It sounds to me that maybe this instructor has a brick on her shoulder or a couple of tons of lead
Whats that saying again? Those who cant teach examine! Perhaps the person involved should try the CAA for a job, but there again, the CAA aint that desperite.
TTFN PP
It sounds to me that maybe this instructor has a brick on her shoulder or a couple of tons of lead
Whats that saying again? Those who cant teach examine! Perhaps the person involved should try the CAA for a job, but there again, the CAA aint that desperite.
TTFN PP
Joined: May 2001
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Petpilot There is nothing wrong with AFT as a company.
The rest of them are great.
Les is a superb Instructor, and I have only heard good things about Andy the CFI.
Atlantic cadets have a very good reputation for being well trained.
The other advantage is Atlantic is a big company and are renowned for letting relatively inexperenced pilots loose on some very nice machines.
I wouldn't write them off as a group because of one instructor.
MJ
The rest of them are great.
Les is a superb Instructor, and I have only heard good things about Andy the CFI.
Atlantic cadets have a very good reputation for being well trained.
The other advantage is Atlantic is a big company and are renowned for letting relatively inexperenced pilots loose on some very nice machines.
I wouldn't write them off as a group because of one instructor.
MJ
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2003
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From: Midlands
I've decided to do my ppl with AFT. I've spoken to their ppl instructor who seems very nice, but also very switched on.
That should give me enough time to sus out the rest of the group. Thanks for your help all.
Obs cop
That should give me enough time to sus out the rest of the group. Thanks for your help all.
Obs cop
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: United Kingdom
The other advantage is Atlantic is a big company and are renowned for letting relatively inexperenced pilots loose on some very nice machines.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2003
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From: Midlands
BB,
Not so sure about that.
Went to visit them, and they still market themselves as part of the Atlantic Group. The guy I was speaking to (for nearly 2 hours!) even got called away to see the Atlantic group CEO.
He went pretty smartish, so I get the impression that AFT still have direct links, even if they trade as a susiduary.
I didn't see "The Instructor" mentioned, but everyone else seemed very nice and the set seemed more suited to professional flying than an average flying club.
Good ops room, organisation, aircraft are clean, well maintained and equiped to modern standards, as well as the chance to train in an ATC environment.
PPL first, and we will go from there.
Thanks all for your advice/posts
Not so sure about that.
Went to visit them, and they still market themselves as part of the Atlantic Group. The guy I was speaking to (for nearly 2 hours!) even got called away to see the Atlantic group CEO.
He went pretty smartish, so I get the impression that AFT still have direct links, even if they trade as a susiduary.
I didn't see "The Instructor" mentioned, but everyone else seemed very nice and the set seemed more suited to professional flying than an average flying club.
Good ops room, organisation, aircraft are clean, well maintained and equiped to modern standards, as well as the chance to train in an ATC environment.
PPL first, and we will go from there.
Thanks all for your advice/posts
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: England
I am a little concerned about character assassination. Just because one or two people have heard instructor X is a bit of a hard case does not necessarily mean its either true or that they are an ineffective instructor. There a great many instructional styles.
People make good use of differing styles at different times.
Whilst it would not be usual to use Barstand mode at all times there are students and times when ball busting mode is a good option.
That aside. It is good to see coverage here being given to the smaller schools.
I get sick to death at times about the focus on OATS, BAE and to a rarer extent CABAIR.
There are so many excellent small schools out there, nearly always containing a couple of top notch career insructors, who have been getting people through CPL/IRs for decades.
Wannabes has been dogged from day one by Wannabes obsession with OATS (and the like) ability to get them into 'major' airlines. Infuriatingly the abilities of the likes of - in this instance - Atlantic Flight Training to get you a job with a low profile airline (Atlantic Airlines) gets ignored.
Throw in the lower accomodation costs of training locally and the lower charges than the big boys and often the argument for ignoring the sales reps at the annual flight training shows pushing glossy brochures is profound.
WWW
ps Is £235hr for that Seminole dual Hobbs or Tacho or Chocks? Sounds cheap.
People make good use of differing styles at different times.
Whilst it would not be usual to use Barstand mode at all times there are students and times when ball busting mode is a good option.
That aside. It is good to see coverage here being given to the smaller schools.
I get sick to death at times about the focus on OATS, BAE and to a rarer extent CABAIR.
There are so many excellent small schools out there, nearly always containing a couple of top notch career insructors, who have been getting people through CPL/IRs for decades.
Wannabes has been dogged from day one by Wannabes obsession with OATS (and the like) ability to get them into 'major' airlines. Infuriatingly the abilities of the likes of - in this instance - Atlantic Flight Training to get you a job with a low profile airline (Atlantic Airlines) gets ignored.
Throw in the lower accomodation costs of training locally and the lower charges than the big boys and often the argument for ignoring the sales reps at the annual flight training shows pushing glossy brochures is profound.
WWW
ps Is £235hr for that Seminole dual Hobbs or Tacho or Chocks? Sounds cheap.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2003
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From: Midlands
Well said WWW
The instructor/pupil relationship is a very complex one and without knowing the full background, it is very difficult to establish either what was going on, or what the instructor was trying to achieve.
No doubt there are instructors who do have power trip syndrome, but I have also seen some outstanding military aiators produced from harsh instructors demanding the best out of the student.
What matters is if the criticism/support/guidance is accurate, relevant and just.
AFT looks like a well organised set up and the nature of the instructors will be fairly easy to ascertain for myself over the coming weeks.
Yes indeed the seminole is £235 per hour solo, not including VAT or landing fees at Coventry. Plus the aircraft is immaculate and mint, having sat in it. It would appear that AFT are also standardising (as far as possible) the instrument fit from C152 through to the seminole.
AFt do not use Hobbs, I clarified that with them, it is chocks to chocks, but furthermore, they deduct up to 10 mins (as far as I understood it!) if you are delayed on the ground waiting to take off due to commercial traffic.
The instructor/pupil relationship is a very complex one and without knowing the full background, it is very difficult to establish either what was going on, or what the instructor was trying to achieve.
No doubt there are instructors who do have power trip syndrome, but I have also seen some outstanding military aiators produced from harsh instructors demanding the best out of the student.
What matters is if the criticism/support/guidance is accurate, relevant and just.
AFT looks like a well organised set up and the nature of the instructors will be fairly easy to ascertain for myself over the coming weeks.
Yes indeed the seminole is £235 per hour solo, not including VAT or landing fees at Coventry. Plus the aircraft is immaculate and mint, having sat in it. It would appear that AFT are also standardising (as far as possible) the instrument fit from C152 through to the seminole.
AFt do not use Hobbs, I clarified that with them, it is chocks to chocks, but furthermore, they deduct up to 10 mins (as far as I understood it!) if you are delayed on the ground waiting to take off due to commercial traffic.
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"What matters is if the criticism/support/guidance is accurate, relevant and just."
That is one of the best summarys in one line of teaching students I have seen yet.
And if you feel you want to teach flying and apply yourself with those goals in mind you should consider being an FI.
Mine so far is treat others as you would want treated yourself.
But so far I don't think I have breached the above, but I will from now on keep it in mind.
MJ
That is one of the best summarys in one line of teaching students I have seen yet.
And if you feel you want to teach flying and apply yourself with those goals in mind you should consider being an FI.
Mine so far is treat others as you would want treated yourself.
But so far I don't think I have breached the above, but I will from now on keep it in mind.
MJ
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2003
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From: Midlands
Thanks for the support MJ
As yet, I am unsure what I ultimately want to achieve from flying.
I know I want a CPL, but modular training allows me to start with an open mind and gain the qulaifications I need to pursue my ambitions as they develop.
I do like the idea of teaching, but I kinda' like the idea of RHS twin turboprops. Ah well, there's a long way to go yet.
As yet, I am unsure what I ultimately want to achieve from flying.
I know I want a CPL, but modular training allows me to start with an open mind and gain the qulaifications I need to pursue my ambitions as they develop.
I do like the idea of teaching, but I kinda' like the idea of RHS twin turboprops. Ah well, there's a long way to go yet.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: UK
"What matters is if the criticism/support/guidance is accurate, relevant and just."
Everything you say as an instructor has got to be 'accurate, relevant and just' It still does not mean that the criticism/support/guidance has to be delivered in such a manner as to belittle the student and destroy his/her confidence.
There are ways of saying 'that was pretty c***' without actually coming out and saying it bluntly. Anyone who has done any instructing will be well aware of the technique of saying ' well, a, b and c went very well but we need to look carefully at how we do z'. This way, even a poor performance will have a positive outome - and you have retained the respect of your student.
I should add I train ATCO's not pilots but the 'Techniques of Instruction' should be the same. Do instructors at flying schools have to receive formal training in basic techniques of instruction? If they do, then I feel a certain instructor at AAT needs a re-sit!
As they say on the telly - "Those who can ...teach"
Everything you say as an instructor has got to be 'accurate, relevant and just' It still does not mean that the criticism/support/guidance has to be delivered in such a manner as to belittle the student and destroy his/her confidence.
There are ways of saying 'that was pretty c***' without actually coming out and saying it bluntly. Anyone who has done any instructing will be well aware of the technique of saying ' well, a, b and c went very well but we need to look carefully at how we do z'. This way, even a poor performance will have a positive outome - and you have retained the respect of your student.
I should add I train ATCO's not pilots but the 'Techniques of Instruction' should be the same. Do instructors at flying schools have to receive formal training in basic techniques of instruction? If they do, then I feel a certain instructor at AAT needs a re-sit!
As they say on the telly - "Those who can ...teach"
Joined: May 2001
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We do recieve the training in our FI course but...
Depending on your boss we only get checked every 3 years.
And as I have posted previously it should be started on a good point, inflict the damage
then end the debrief on a few high points.
Again this is all based on your relationship with the student.
And after 5 hours instructing with another 2 hours to go sometimes you don't quite give them the boast you should.
"your doing fine, yes your crap but you have only done 1 hour in the circuit, so practise make perfect" with a wee throw away line as you leg it towords the next student "I still can't get them right myself everytime"
I personally prefer to get the student to debrief themselves using leading questions.
"so what do you think we have improved on in the last lesson?"
Which gives them a chance to cover some good points.
"So what went wrong"
Then add in at the end of the list what they really did wrong.
But humour them when the bring up something which is pish.
"So what do you think we should work on next time?"
Making a list makes them feel more envolved with there training and makes them feel as if they are driving the lessons. Then add on the points you really want to cover.
Then add in at the end something which can be completely bollocks about improved airmanship etc which makes them leave on a high thinking they are getting somewhere.
I really can't see the point getting wound up to the point that you shout at a student. They are stressed and are less responsive to teaching. I get my BP up and don't enjoy teaching the lesson.
So not only does the punter come out pissed off with themselves and you for bitching at them. But you have worked 5 times as hard because you have let the situation get the better of you.
MJ
Depending on your boss we only get checked every 3 years.
And as I have posted previously it should be started on a good point, inflict the damage
then end the debrief on a few high points.Again this is all based on your relationship with the student.
And after 5 hours instructing with another 2 hours to go sometimes you don't quite give them the boast you should.
"your doing fine, yes your crap but you have only done 1 hour in the circuit, so practise make perfect" with a wee throw away line as you leg it towords the next student "I still can't get them right myself everytime"
I personally prefer to get the student to debrief themselves using leading questions.
"so what do you think we have improved on in the last lesson?"
Which gives them a chance to cover some good points.
"So what went wrong"
Then add in at the end of the list what they really did wrong.
But humour them when the bring up something which is pish.
"So what do you think we should work on next time?"
Making a list makes them feel more envolved with there training and makes them feel as if they are driving the lessons. Then add on the points you really want to cover.
Then add in at the end something which can be completely bollocks about improved airmanship etc which makes them leave on a high thinking they are getting somewhere.
I really can't see the point getting wound up to the point that you shout at a student. They are stressed and are less responsive to teaching. I get my BP up and don't enjoy teaching the lesson.
So not only does the punter come out pissed off with themselves and you for bitching at them. But you have worked 5 times as hard because you have let the situation get the better of you.
MJ
