Just a CPL?
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Just a CPL?
I know that airlines are not interested in CPL qualified pilots without an ATPL (be it frozen or unfrozen). However, would it be possible to get a job flying light twins or similar, with just a CPL. In the good old days this was how it was done. Getting just the CPL ME/IR would save a lot of time for those who would be happy flying light aircraft. The ATPL could always come later. I imagine that I am being hopelessly naive. Saving six months of study and concomitant loss of earnings would make a try for a flying job much less of a gamble 
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That is exactly as it is laid out in JAR-FCL1 however, the Training Providers who provide the necessary courses have deceided to put all their efforts into producing ATPL courses rather than CPL courses as that will bring in more money.
Market forces rule!
Market forces rule!
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From: Egcc
I seem to recall that in the 'good old days' you could do exactly as you say, but you still had to do BCPL then CPL exams, so I can't quite see how you would have saved '6 months study' plus loss of earnings. The CPL's weren't that much easier than the ATPL's.
You still can fly on just a CPL and command a single crew piston (maybe bigger, not sure on the rules?) but under JAR I can't imagine that anybody does study notes/courses for CPL groundschool considering demand ceased under CAA once the rules allowed you to take ATPL's straight off. I still don't quite see the savings you mention either way.....the ATPL's can be done in six months and CPL's certainly couldn't be done in 6 less!
Regards
PP
[ 07 July 2001: Message edited by: Pilot Pete ]
You still can fly on just a CPL and command a single crew piston (maybe bigger, not sure on the rules?) but under JAR I can't imagine that anybody does study notes/courses for CPL groundschool considering demand ceased under CAA once the rules allowed you to take ATPL's straight off. I still don't quite see the savings you mention either way.....the ATPL's can be done in six months and CPL's certainly couldn't be done in 6 less!
Regards
PP
[ 07 July 2001: Message edited by: Pilot Pete ]
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Singapore
Ah, I see. So the ATPL written exams completely replace the 'old' CPL written exams. Well I guess it is back to the drawing board then!
I wish the book '02FO' had contained useful information like that, rather than just over-enthusiastic pep-talk.
Thanks for you help
I wish the book '02FO' had contained useful information like that, rather than just over-enthusiastic pep-talk.
Thanks for you help
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Egcc
Cos
I'm not sure if the ATPL written exams do replace the CPL's, someone more up with JAR regs would have to comment, it's just that under the 'old' rules (CAA) CPL exams virtualy became redundent due to people being able to take the ATPL's without first doing BCPL and then CPL exams. You could still do just CPL's but virtually nobody did hence the training establishments stopped supporting them with groundschool courses/notes.
Before you dismiss the idea try to find out if it is still possible to study for and sit CPL exams, you never know, but I still say that you are not going to make the time savings that you were thinking of even if you could do just CPL's. Also, in the long run it makes sense therefore to just go straight for ATPL's which will undoubtably save you money in the long run (when you come to upgrade your CPL's to ATPL's you will have to relearn a great deal of material, hence more time)
Hope this puts things more in context, and anyone else care to comment about CPL's under European Regs?
PP
I'm not sure if the ATPL written exams do replace the CPL's, someone more up with JAR regs would have to comment, it's just that under the 'old' rules (CAA) CPL exams virtualy became redundent due to people being able to take the ATPL's without first doing BCPL and then CPL exams. You could still do just CPL's but virtually nobody did hence the training establishments stopped supporting them with groundschool courses/notes.
Before you dismiss the idea try to find out if it is still possible to study for and sit CPL exams, you never know, but I still say that you are not going to make the time savings that you were thinking of even if you could do just CPL's. Also, in the long run it makes sense therefore to just go straight for ATPL's which will undoubtably save you money in the long run (when you come to upgrade your CPL's to ATPL's you will have to relearn a great deal of material, hence more time)
Hope this puts things more in context, and anyone else care to comment about CPL's under European Regs?
PP
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: UK
The CAA can provide JAA CPL exams for anyone who has completed the relevant training course. So far there only appears to be one company advertising CPL distance learning. There are no learning objectives for the CPL yet.
There is one big disadvantage going straight to the ATPLs, once passed, you only have 36 months to complete both CPL and IR or they expire.
The big difference between the UK and JAA exams is that the UK Techs were common to all levels of Professional licence. Under the JAA system exams are not divided into Navs and Techs so there is more to retake if you upgrade.
[ 08 July 2001: Message edited by: Noggin ]
There is one big disadvantage going straight to the ATPLs, once passed, you only have 36 months to complete both CPL and IR or they expire.
The big difference between the UK and JAA exams is that the UK Techs were common to all levels of Professional licence. Under the JAA system exams are not divided into Navs and Techs so there is more to retake if you upgrade.
[ 08 July 2001: Message edited by: Noggin ]
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From: Egcc
Noggin,
I knew someone out there would know the score.
I seem to recall under CAA rules that you used to only have 12 months to get the GFT passed after the writtens, or 6 months to get the writtens done if you were brave enough to take the GFT first! 36 months sounds like an improvement, and to be honest should not present a problem to those who are 'serious' about going all the way (if you haven't done the flying within 36 months of passing the groundschool then something has gone seriously wrong), but at least those wishing to pursue CPL groundschool only can still consider it, although my thoughts on it haven't changed and I would still question the wisdom if ATPL is the ultimate goal.
PP
I knew someone out there would know the score.
I seem to recall under CAA rules that you used to only have 12 months to get the GFT passed after the writtens, or 6 months to get the writtens done if you were brave enough to take the GFT first! 36 months sounds like an improvement, and to be honest should not present a problem to those who are 'serious' about going all the way (if you haven't done the flying within 36 months of passing the groundschool then something has gone seriously wrong), but at least those wishing to pursue CPL groundschool only can still consider it, although my thoughts on it haven't changed and I would still question the wisdom if ATPL is the ultimate goal.
PP
lazy fairweather PPRuNer
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Forres,Scotland
Eighteen months ago I was in the uncomfortable position of working towards my JAA instructors course with everyone telling me to aviod the JAR ATPLs like the plague. At the time there were no such things as JAR CPL exams. So where did this leave me?
Well, there was another way (nothing to do with Tony Blair either). What the dear old CAA let us do was sit the UK CPLs and those exams would suffice but our JAA CPL would be restricted to UK registered aircraft only.
I don't know if this system is still in place and if you say there are now JAA CPL exams out there then maybe this loophole has been closed off. Worth exploring though.
Well, there was another way (nothing to do with Tony Blair either). What the dear old CAA let us do was sit the UK CPLs and those exams would suffice but our JAA CPL would be restricted to UK registered aircraft only.
I don't know if this system is still in place and if you say there are now JAA CPL exams out there then maybe this loophole has been closed off. Worth exploring though.
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From: UK
Pilot Pete,
Under the old rules you had to do the CPL in 12 months, but there was no time limit for doing the IR once you had the CPL issued. Now there is a clock running until you complete the IR and you only have 36 months. Swings and roundabouts!
Under the old rules you had to do the CPL in 12 months, but there was no time limit for doing the IR once you had the CPL issued. Now there is a clock running until you complete the IR and you only have 36 months. Swings and roundabouts!
lazy fairweather PPRuNer
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Forres,Scotland
Just checked out the CAA website. The provision for sitting UK CPL exams to get a JAA CPL license is still there. Check it out for yourself on www.srg.caa.co.uk/pld/pld_home.asp and click on "what's new".
Also PPSC still do the CPL course but you will have to take the exams at Gatwick.
As for what you can or can't do with the license, as far as I know its a full blown CPL and if people won't recruit you for a job that only requires a CPL because you haven't done your ATPLs then just keep quiet about it. If you're qualified for the job then it should stop there surely (he says niavely).
Also PPSC still do the CPL course but you will have to take the exams at Gatwick.
As for what you can or can't do with the license, as far as I know its a full blown CPL and if people won't recruit you for a job that only requires a CPL because you haven't done your ATPLs then just keep quiet about it. If you're qualified for the job then it should stop there surely (he says niavely).
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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From: Everywhere in the UK, but not home!
Hi folks,
Let's get one thing straight here, irrespective of whether JAR or UK CAA the only thing you are allowed to do with an ATPL that you're not allowed to do with a CPL is carry people. With a CPL you can fly 747 Cargo ops if you want, but you can't carry fare paying pax. Got that so far.
So, based on that premise then it's easy to take the logical step in understanding that there is very little difference between the CPL theory and the ATPL theory. There is absolutely no difference in the Flying Skills test. It's true that you need an IR for the issue of the ATPL and not for the CPL, however, as has been said earlier, there are few jobs that are available for non IR CPL's (banner towing, parachute dropping and the like).
I hope that is clear enough, I just re-read this and it sounds a bit condescending, it's not meant to be.
Let's get one thing straight here, irrespective of whether JAR or UK CAA the only thing you are allowed to do with an ATPL that you're not allowed to do with a CPL is carry people. With a CPL you can fly 747 Cargo ops if you want, but you can't carry fare paying pax. Got that so far.
So, based on that premise then it's easy to take the logical step in understanding that there is very little difference between the CPL theory and the ATPL theory. There is absolutely no difference in the Flying Skills test. It's true that you need an IR for the issue of the ATPL and not for the CPL, however, as has been said earlier, there are few jobs that are available for non IR CPL's (banner towing, parachute dropping and the like).
I hope that is clear enough, I just re-read this and it sounds a bit condescending, it's not meant to be.
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From: Egcc
Snigs
I beg to differ. You state that you can't carry passengers with a CPL, but can with an ATPL. You most definately can carry fee paying passengers with a CPL, as PIC, but only up to a certain weight I believe(a/c not pax!). I did, as many others have, fly air taxi as PIC with a CPL and carried pax all over the place for 'reward'(and legally I hasten to add!). I had an I.R. (single crew), but I understand that in theory you could still do the work VFR only without the I.R.........pretty irrelavent though as no UK air taxi operator would employ you without an I.R. bearing the U.K. weather in mind and the fact that you needed to go into all the major airports, some of whom do not as a rule let VFR traffic in.
Regards
PP
I beg to differ. You state that you can't carry passengers with a CPL, but can with an ATPL. You most definately can carry fee paying passengers with a CPL, as PIC, but only up to a certain weight I believe(a/c not pax!). I did, as many others have, fly air taxi as PIC with a CPL and carried pax all over the place for 'reward'(and legally I hasten to add!). I had an I.R. (single crew), but I understand that in theory you could still do the work VFR only without the I.R.........pretty irrelavent though as no UK air taxi operator would employ you without an I.R. bearing the U.K. weather in mind and the fact that you needed to go into all the major airports, some of whom do not as a rule let VFR traffic in.
Regards
PP
Joined: Apr 2001
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JimNich
CPL(H) only my friend!
CPL(A) has gone for good, and the page you ref to goes on to tell that those who have missed the now passed deadline will have to sit all the new exams, but can miss out on some of the ground school at the discression of their FTO.
CPL(H) only my friend!
CPL(A) has gone for good, and the page you ref to goes on to tell that those who have missed the now passed deadline will have to sit all the new exams, but can miss out on some of the ground school at the discression of their FTO.
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: North West
Just reading the threads and not sure if Cos got the answers he wants. As mentioned, UK CAA exams are no more (helicopters excepted). All exams are JAA and there are so few providers of JAA CPL courses as there is so little demand. Sitting ATPL exams will not involve much more than doing CPL exams and passing a CPL skils test will provide a CPL(R) - for restricted, which can be removed when you have 700 hours (just like the old BCPL). You can add an I/R which will enable you fly light twins commercially (air taxi). A JAA ATPL can only be issued when you have 1500 hours including 500 multi-crew. As I understand it the, the 36 months refers to starting the exams (first sitting) and having the CPL(R) issued i.e. if you don't get an ATPL issued you don't lose all you have gained. In essence, the rules haven't changed as much as people believe. Hope this helps.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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From: Everywhere in the UK, but not home!
Pilot Pete
Yes, you're right, point conceded.
I'm not sure what the weight limit is. It's probably 5700kg, most other demarkations are at that weight!
Yes, you're right, point conceded.
I'm not sure what the weight limit is. It's probably 5700kg, most other demarkations are at that weight!
lazy fairweather PPRuNer
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Forres,Scotland
Clear Prop,
Yep, you're right, apologies for passing on duff gen, falling on sword as we speak.
...and yes, I was one of the numpties who forked out for the UK CPLs only to find out there was fork all difference between those and the ATPLs........bugger!
Yep, you're right, apologies for passing on duff gen, falling on sword as we speak.
...and yes, I was one of the numpties who forked out for the UK CPLs only to find out there was fork all difference between those and the ATPLs........bugger!
