Non JAR State Credits for CPL/Multi IFR

[Canada Goose]

As the topic header suggests, can anyone in the know indicate what credit would be given to someone who holds a foreign CPL, multi engine IFR rating (or for that matter even a foreign ATPL). The JAA website indicates that credit may be given, but does not elaborate. Also, I cannot find what requirements are for multi IFR/CPL, i.e. does it stipulate X amount of dual is required as well as passing a flight test.

Would it not be crazy for someone with hundreds of multi IFR time to have to be forced to undertake hours and hours of dual training just to meet some bureaucratic requirement ? Sitting a written exam and passing a flight test check ride surely would suffice ??

Maybe it is - that's why I ask the question !

[foghorn]

Conversion - ICAO-compliant foreign CPL with multi to a JAR CPL with MEP class rating

Must pass the MEP rating theory exam (dead easy).

Must demonstrate theoretical knowledge to CPL or ATPL level by attending the full approved theory course and passing the written exams (e.g. 650 hours study and 14 exams for the ATPLs).

Must complete a course of flight training and pass a skills test in a multi-engine aircraft. The number of hours required is 'at the discretion' of the CFI of the FTO.

Conversion - ICAO compliant foreign multi-IR to JAR IR-SPA-ME (Single Pilot Aeroplanes - Multi-Engine)

Must demonstrate theoretical knowledge to IR or ATPL level by attending the full approved theory course and passing the written exams (e.g. 650 hours study and 14 exams for the ATPLs).

Must complete a full approved 55 hour course of training and pass the skills test. A credit of 5 hours towards the course is given for holders of a CPL.

Exceptions:

Foreign ICAO-compliant ATPL holders with more than 500 hours multi-crew must demonstrate knowledge at ATPL level (length of course at the discretion of the FTO) and then pass the IR skills test to be awarded the ATPL.

Foreign ICAO-compliant ATPL holder with a significant amount (>3,000 hours?) of Multi-crew command time do not have to demonstrate knowledge at ATPL level.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the JAA. Different national authorities may interpret these regulations differnetly. Until the beginning of the year the UK CAA was interpreting the requirements with regards to converting a foreign IR very liberally, and seems to have got its wrist smacked by the JAA.

cheers!
foggy.

[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: foghorn ]

[Canada Goose]

Thanks for the heads up Foggy ! Once again, you have answered my query - thanks.

So, basically to summarise, under 500 hrs multi crew, a 55 hour course for the multi -IFR, with possible credit of 5 hours for ICAO compliant CPL.

I assume that much of this training can be done in a simulator, with only a small portion of IFR actually being done in the multi.

Cheers.
CG.

[foghorn]

That's correct - at least 15 hours must be in a multi-engine aircraft. The rest can be simulator or single engine.

Note that the JARs have a very narrow definition of what a simulator is, which means that IR sims cost almost as much in hourly rate as commercial single engine training!

cheers!
foggy

[Canada Goose]

So what is the average cost to get a MIFR in the UK ? I've just read in the post regarding ATPL exams and skills test that it costs 2K (pounds) per year to keep the it current !!

It would seem there is some hefty fleecing going on. Here in Canada, IFR simulators are about half the cost of single engine IFR instruction !!

Cheers, CG.

[foghorn]

The problem is that under JAR, only the real high-end (ie. most expensive simulators) can be used for IR training. As an interim measure, there are some older cheaper sims around (c.£100 ph), but these are under grandfather rights and will have to be scrapped soon, plus you can only do the first 20 hours of the IR course in them (and then you have to fly a real SE or ME aircraft for the rest of the course, you can't switch into the more expensive sim).

The top end simulators actually cost as much to run as a 172 at commercial rates, you can expect to pay around £130-£160ph for them.

Multi-engine IR training comes in at around £280 - £350 ph depending on ac type and school.

Expect to pay £8,000 - £10,000 for the IR.

And then there's the CAA test fee of £564 and 2 hours aircraft hire for the test. Not to mention retests if you don't pass. And When you pass, the CAA charges you £128 to add the IR to your licence (which takes the trainee 30 minutes to print!).

Then you have to renew it annually - the best way to do this is to renew your MEP rating and IR-SPA-ME at the same time this will cost £1,000 if you're current, more like £2,000 if you have not flown ME-IFR much and need a couple of pre-test lessons.

You can opt to renew the IR-SPA-ME on a sim which is much cheaper. Unfortunately you cannot renew your MEP rating on the sim, so although your IR will technically be valid for ME, you won't actually be able to legally fly a multi-engine aircraft because you have no MEP rating!!!

Key to JAR acronyms
IR-SPA-ME Instrument Rating - Single Pilot Aeroplanes - Multi Engine
MEP Multi Engine Piston Land class rating

Welcome to the expensive world of JAR....

foggy.

[mutant]

Hi Canada Goose,
I finished the JAR training in May this year and including MCC at 2400pounds came to a grand total of 20,000 pounds, including medicals, flight tests, licences, written exams, approach fees, landing fees and nav fees. Beer, sadly was not included!!
I'm now back in T.O., unemployed (or rather employed in my pre-aviation profession!).
If you have any questions drop me a line.

[Canada Goose]

Foggy,

Thanks once again for the reply and expanding on my query.

Mutant,

Back in Canada ehh !! Thanks for the post as well. I'm intrigued - I'll be dropping you a line, off-line so to speak


Cheers,
C.G.