Europe destroying aviation
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Europe destroying aviation
At a recent discussion in the European Parliament it was pointed out that there is a shortage of candidates for the professions of air traffic controllers and commercial pilots in many European countries. It was suggested that the negative 'environmentally-unfriendly' image of aviation often put forward in the media had something to do with this, while the high cost and perceived difficulty of the training involved were also deterrents. Another major reason for the lack of candidate pilots and controllers could be the difficulties encountered by young people in getting access to aviation. Years ago, kids often caught the flying bug by hanging around airfields, where nowadays security barriers prevent them gaining access.
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Very true. Here in Holland where there are no courses that are paid for by airlines (such as the BA CEP program), the government has now decided to not make interest paid on a study loan (such as the one you'd have for a flight training program) is no longer deductible from you taxes. This deters aspiring pilots even more since that's thousands of euros difference.
But then again, aviation being destroyed in Holland is a whole other discussion!
But then again, aviation being destroyed in Holland is a whole other discussion!
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they are only annoyed because they want more EU dollars for young guys wanting to be gear/flap operators in boeing 777 who pay $150000 Eurodollars to like horizon with no job at end. money only matters to these people. many jaa aspiring pilots catch the fling bug NOT at airports but from being inside the job centre or Mcdonalds. there are more jaa pilots in these places than at airports/flying scholls. often these can be found cleaning the WCs and ticking boxes. but before they can do that they have to go on a lengthy jaa approved course costing many eu dollars and over 300 hours of ground scholl. this is a big EU rip off. come to USA and be a rel pilot. its a mans job not a job for a sisy. dont pay to fly.
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The same story: an interesting thread turns into bulls......g due to the well known reason. Anyway, I agree. Here's the situation in Italy: no sponsorship at all. Alitalia runs its own flight school, an ab initio course is about 90.000$, while the price if you already have the cpl is 50.000$, and they don't guarantee the job. An integrated CPL goes for 30.000$, then you've to add MCC/CRM and frozen Atpl, and many companies hire you only if you pay your own type rating. It's better to be rich and a captain's son, or to have the right connection if you want to pursue the dream here, otherwise, well, be ready to eat a lot of s..t, as I'm going to do.....
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The situation in Finland is not very bad, actually it seems to be one of the best in the world! I have no facts to back up my statement, but consider this:
Every year Finnair trains approximately 30-45 pilots of 1500 - 2000 applicants. They train you from zero time to CPL with the ME done in their King Air 300, in 18 months (PPL 3 months and CPL 15 months). If you succeed during your training and if Finnair has free positions, they will probably hire you (no guarantee, though). Then you will be given the type rating for ATR-72. The interesting is from the student's point of view, that the whole thing from 0 time to CPL costs only 50,000 FIM, that is 8,300 Euros. Not bad, don't you think? Naturally you would have to speak and understand Finnish.
The trick is that Finnair is a state owned company (58% share). So the state pays one part of the training, Finnair pays another part and the rest remains for the student. Kind of a sponsorship, but still very open and approachable option.
If you don't get accepted to the Finnair training, the next best thing, Pilot Factory (the only JAR-FCL approved private flight school in Finland), costs 385,000 FIM or 64,000 Euros for 0 time to ATPL.
There is no question which is my primary choice, although if I need to invest that 60,000+ Euros to get to my job of dreams, I am ready to do that.
My point is that even though there are also those "traditional" and expensive ways of becoming a pilot, Finnair offers a realistic option to get there. Being accepted by Finnair does not automatically mean a job, but getting your PPL, CPL, NVFR, IR and ME & BE300 type rating for 8,300 Euros is not a bad deal. Not at all.
Levente
Every year Finnair trains approximately 30-45 pilots of 1500 - 2000 applicants. They train you from zero time to CPL with the ME done in their King Air 300, in 18 months (PPL 3 months and CPL 15 months). If you succeed during your training and if Finnair has free positions, they will probably hire you (no guarantee, though). Then you will be given the type rating for ATR-72. The interesting is from the student's point of view, that the whole thing from 0 time to CPL costs only 50,000 FIM, that is 8,300 Euros. Not bad, don't you think? Naturally you would have to speak and understand Finnish.
The trick is that Finnair is a state owned company (58% share). So the state pays one part of the training, Finnair pays another part and the rest remains for the student. Kind of a sponsorship, but still very open and approachable option.
If you don't get accepted to the Finnair training, the next best thing, Pilot Factory (the only JAR-FCL approved private flight school in Finland), costs 385,000 FIM or 64,000 Euros for 0 time to ATPL.
There is no question which is my primary choice, although if I need to invest that 60,000+ Euros to get to my job of dreams, I am ready to do that.
My point is that even though there are also those "traditional" and expensive ways of becoming a pilot, Finnair offers a realistic option to get there. Being accepted by Finnair does not automatically mean a job, but getting your PPL, CPL, NVFR, IR and ME & BE300 type rating for 8,300 Euros is not a bad deal. Not at all.
Levente
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I think Levente proves the point rather well, when the government realise the importance of aviation to them, things seem to get magically better, also see the US. "Europe destroying aviation" gives the impression this is all 'our' problem, of an industry slowly sliding away by its own vices. Its not, it's f'cking politicians, the JAA is a great idea, but wont work, never will regardless of all the struggle, far to many opposing forces with a totally inadequate structure to cope. Why bother? Because more politicians want votes and power, not because they want aviation to grow.
I know it’s going to open a whole can of worms, but look at the states, (yes its how Europe wants to be, all one big nations with lots of little states). But a decision is made on what is happening, and is assessed, them implemented. In Europe, a problem is suggested that doesn’t exist, it is then debated into the ground with little expert input. A "solution" is finally made that is not the best to anyone, but a mishmash of different interests, it is then imposed without regard for the impact. The phrase ‘continual regulation in search of a problem’ becomes more of a work ethic by the day. A continual smoke screen for environmental issues, only gives licence to screw people out of a decent existence. Yes we should be environmentally aware, but fanciful targets effecting the least able to defend and most visible of industries is again spin, not actually beneficial rulings
I think a straw poll of everyone in the aviation industry on whether we should have the old National systems or the new JAA would have rather unsurprising results.
I know it’s going to open a whole can of worms, but look at the states, (yes its how Europe wants to be, all one big nations with lots of little states). But a decision is made on what is happening, and is assessed, them implemented. In Europe, a problem is suggested that doesn’t exist, it is then debated into the ground with little expert input. A "solution" is finally made that is not the best to anyone, but a mishmash of different interests, it is then imposed without regard for the impact. The phrase ‘continual regulation in search of a problem’ becomes more of a work ethic by the day. A continual smoke screen for environmental issues, only gives licence to screw people out of a decent existence. Yes we should be environmentally aware, but fanciful targets effecting the least able to defend and most visible of industries is again spin, not actually beneficial rulings
I think a straw poll of everyone in the aviation industry on whether we should have the old National systems or the new JAA would have rather unsurprising results.
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All this euro/jar crap was the final nail in the coffin for British GA. RIP!
Im not going to list all the JAA aims and objectives on here (you can see them on their website), but its quite clear they have failed to achieve any of them!
I wish they would stop symptom coping... they create more hassle than they solve.
The new system has achieved NOTHING. What was wrong with the old system? NOTHING. Bring back the nationals and lets all get on with life again!
Im not going to list all the JAA aims and objectives on here (you can see them on their website), but its quite clear they have failed to achieve any of them!
I wish they would stop symptom coping... they create more hassle than they solve.
The new system has achieved NOTHING. What was wrong with the old system? NOTHING. Bring back the nationals and lets all get on with life again!
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If I am not totally mistaken, I believe the Finnish government is planning to set up a partly ministry-financed flight trainin school by expanding Finnair's existing training facilities in Pori. The plan is that in a few years, they would like to have approximately 100-120 new pilots finishing every year, which would be enough to satisfy the coming pilot shortage. I also think that not only Finnair will be allowed to extend their training, but also other schools should be able to train their pilots there.
From a wannabe point of view this is very good initiative from the state, but I am sure private flight schools are not that happy about it..
Levente
From a wannabe point of view this is very good initiative from the state, but I am sure private flight schools are not that happy about it..
Levente
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This quote was sent to me in a letter from 'The Department of Education and Employment' regarding the lack of government help with professional flight training.
"The responsibilty for recruiting and training commercial pilots lies with the airlines and, especially as there are no current shortages in this area, the government would not expect to become involved"
The letter then goes on to highlight 'Career Development Loans' and how helpful £8,000 is against the £30 - £58,000 you may need.
Hmmm, I think it would be easier to get a degree in something useful like 'Klingon' or 'David Beckham', it seems there would be more help with the loan.
"The responsibilty for recruiting and training commercial pilots lies with the airlines and, especially as there are no current shortages in this area, the government would not expect to become involved"
The letter then goes on to highlight 'Career Development Loans' and how helpful £8,000 is against the £30 - £58,000 you may need.
Hmmm, I think it would be easier to get a degree in something useful like 'Klingon' or 'David Beckham', it seems there would be more help with the loan.
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Usual 'Finger on the pulse' government research.
Most wannabies, myself have approached MPs on this subject, and the usual response could best be described as interested but not bothered. It looks like aviation could be more of a vote winner for not supporting it. Noise, pollution, rich mans playthings. Seem to be the general synopsis of the public.
If the public could realise the benefits of having a local airport, or the significance of Aviation as a whole, things would possibly improve, what about a 'get to know your GA campaign' properly promoted and not just run in Pilot and Flyer. Its the grass routes of the Industry and should be nurtured.
Most wannabies, myself have approached MPs on this subject, and the usual response could best be described as interested but not bothered. It looks like aviation could be more of a vote winner for not supporting it. Noise, pollution, rich mans playthings. Seem to be the general synopsis of the public.
If the public could realise the benefits of having a local airport, or the significance of Aviation as a whole, things would possibly improve, what about a 'get to know your GA campaign' properly promoted and not just run in Pilot and Flyer. Its the grass routes of the Industry and should be nurtured.
