MECR/IR before CPL
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MECR/IR before CPL
I am curious to know what advantages and disadvantages there are for training for the Instrument Rating straight after completing a PPL and before undertaking the ATPL Theory exams.
As this method would benefit me better than building 150hours for the CPL as I would presumably have already accumulated hours towards this in the MECR + IR.
Is the work required for the Instrument Rating extremely more demanding, and is that why people leave it until last?
Finally what exactly is so hard about it?
Thanks
John
As this method would benefit me better than building 150hours for the CPL as I would presumably have already accumulated hours towards this in the MECR + IR.
Is the work required for the Instrument Rating extremely more demanding, and is that why people leave it until last?
Finally what exactly is so hard about it?
Thanks
John
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Ahha - well spotted.
CAA people have recommended in the past that you do I/R first.
It all counts towards the "hour building" that would otherwise be required before starting CPL course and it gives you a 10 hour credit towards the CPL and a less demanding CPL skill test (as you get a full credit for the instrument portion - so no I/F to do on the skill test).
Also the skills and confidence that you would be taught to get through an I/R will make the CPL training "a walk in the park"
Don't forget that you could even do an FAA I/R first - 15 hours of which would have to be logged "dual" - the remaining 40 could be P1 (in the right circumstances) and then convert it with a (minimum) 15 hour course when you get back home. Much cheaper (and dual rated) - though choose the FAA school VERY carefully.
Disadvantages - err, give me time, I'll think of something.[
CAA people have recommended in the past that you do I/R first.
It all counts towards the "hour building" that would otherwise be required before starting CPL course and it gives you a 10 hour credit towards the CPL and a less demanding CPL skill test (as you get a full credit for the instrument portion - so no I/F to do on the skill test).
Also the skills and confidence that you would be taught to get through an I/R will make the CPL training "a walk in the park"
Don't forget that you could even do an FAA I/R first - 15 hours of which would have to be logged "dual" - the remaining 40 could be P1 (in the right circumstances) and then convert it with a (minimum) 15 hour course when you get back home. Much cheaper (and dual rated) - though choose the FAA school VERY carefully.
Disadvantages - err, give me time, I'll think of something.[
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S744
The IR is generally considered a difficult test of your flying skills, capacity and knowledge of regulations. People with a lot of flying experience (eg ex-mil fast jet) somtimes find it quite challenging.
The general opinion, therefore, is to do it last, when you have acquired as much ability as possible before the test itself.
The CPL skill-test is, by comparison, a walk in the park, in the sunshine, on a warm day.
The IR is generally considered a difficult test of your flying skills, capacity and knowledge of regulations. People with a lot of flying experience (eg ex-mil fast jet) somtimes find it quite challenging.
The general opinion, therefore, is to do it last, when you have acquired as much ability as possible before the test itself.
The CPL skill-test is, by comparison, a walk in the park, in the sunshine, on a warm day.
Forget it.
You will not be able to pass a multi engined Instrument Rating Test with just a PPL, 10hrs Multi and the compulsory IR module.
The CAA testing unit would not like it either. The IRT is the first time the CAA actually gets to fly and test you. It is regarded as the final tick that will allow you to take unsuspecting ticket holding punters into the air.
For this reason the test is regarded as the last line of defence for the general public.
They can and will fail you even though you managed to keep the aircraft within the set tolerances for the whole flight. They are looking for Captaincy. Basically they can ask themselves would they be happy sending their kids up with you as pilot. If the answer is no they will fail you. With <100hrs TT and very very little solo I suspect you would fail the kids in the back test.
Undertaking the mandatory IR course with very very low hours is likely to lead to a few hours extra training required.
Such extra training is charged at the rate of c. £350 an hr. Therefore it is false economy to try to save cheap hour building hours at c. £50 an hr by doing an IR as hour building and needing an extra 5 hours due to you diminished experience.
There are few shortcuts in this business.
WWW
You will not be able to pass a multi engined Instrument Rating Test with just a PPL, 10hrs Multi and the compulsory IR module.
The CAA testing unit would not like it either. The IRT is the first time the CAA actually gets to fly and test you. It is regarded as the final tick that will allow you to take unsuspecting ticket holding punters into the air.
For this reason the test is regarded as the last line of defence for the general public.
They can and will fail you even though you managed to keep the aircraft within the set tolerances for the whole flight. They are looking for Captaincy. Basically they can ask themselves would they be happy sending their kids up with you as pilot. If the answer is no they will fail you. With <100hrs TT and very very little solo I suspect you would fail the kids in the back test.
Undertaking the mandatory IR course with very very low hours is likely to lead to a few hours extra training required.
Such extra training is charged at the rate of c. £350 an hr. Therefore it is false economy to try to save cheap hour building hours at c. £50 an hr by doing an IR as hour building and needing an extra 5 hours due to you diminished experience.
There are few shortcuts in this business.
WWW
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I'll go with WWW on this one, the inital IR is most likely the hardest flight test you will ever fly. To even contemplate it with relatively little experience is false econemy, have seen some good pilots come unstuck on the test.
Structured hrs building, CPL, Multi engine leading to IR training would be sensible.
Whatever you intend to do, best of luck.
FF
Structured hrs building, CPL, Multi engine leading to IR training would be sensible.
Whatever you intend to do, best of luck.
FF
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Indeed
Its akin to a new born challenging Linford Christy (
You ask how hard it is?
The best way to tell you is to unashamedly admit that I cried when I got home after pasing the IRT, this was after three and a 1/2 months of u/s aircraft and bad weather and oodles of dosh.
PS I was entitled to unapproved training as well.
Do an IMC course as an intro and do some challenging Hourbuilding.
Keygrip is correct about the FAA IR, I still believe an FAA IR converts directly to a CAA imc rating and an IMC and a FAA IR might entitle you to some RHS seat time in something like a Citation II. Flying in th USA is ace fun although I think its a bit different now from what it used to be...
All the best with it....
Its akin to a new born challenging Linford Christy (
You ask how hard it is?
The best way to tell you is to unashamedly admit that I cried when I got home after pasing the IRT, this was after three and a 1/2 months of u/s aircraft and bad weather and oodles of dosh.
PS I was entitled to unapproved training as well.
Do an IMC course as an intro and do some challenging Hourbuilding.
Keygrip is correct about the FAA IR, I still believe an FAA IR converts directly to a CAA imc rating and an IMC and a FAA IR might entitle you to some RHS seat time in something like a Citation II. Flying in th USA is ace fun although I think its a bit different now from what it used to be...
All the best with it....
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FAA IR vs CAA IR ???
What's the main differences between the FAA IR and the CAA version ?
Under FAA rules (part 61 anyway) we need 250 hours to do the commercial checkride. Also, there is no IMC, so many pilots go straight on and do the IR pretty shortly after the private rating, then build hours to do the Single Engine Commercial Instrument, then Multi Commercial Instrument.
Why the big difference in attitude between the two ?
Under FAA rules (part 61 anyway) we need 250 hours to do the commercial checkride. Also, there is no IMC, so many pilots go straight on and do the IR pretty shortly after the private rating, then build hours to do the Single Engine Commercial Instrument, then Multi Commercial Instrument.
Why the big difference in attitude between the two ?
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When to do IR?
I speak (type) not from experience, but from what I have heard/learnt from others and what I plan to do in in my own programme of training.
Until recently I had always understood the 'norm' to be to study the CPL first, with the IR at the end (due to higher cost and difficulty of the IR). It is also my understanding (although I stand to be corrected if wrong) that an IR needs renewing as opposed to a CPL.
My plan is to complete my ATPL theory, then do an IMC as part of my pre-CPL hour building (as preparation towards the CPL as it is a couple of years since I've had any formal flight training), then the CPL and then parhaps leave a period before the IR so that I complete training at a time when there will be some sort of work out there..........
However, I was advised by one well known school offering modular training for CPL and IR that it was advisable to complete the IR before the CPL!
Until recently I had always understood the 'norm' to be to study the CPL first, with the IR at the end (due to higher cost and difficulty of the IR). It is also my understanding (although I stand to be corrected if wrong) that an IR needs renewing as opposed to a CPL.
My plan is to complete my ATPL theory, then do an IMC as part of my pre-CPL hour building (as preparation towards the CPL as it is a couple of years since I've had any formal flight training), then the CPL and then parhaps leave a period before the IR so that I complete training at a time when there will be some sort of work out there..........
However, I was advised by one well known school offering modular training for CPL and IR that it was advisable to complete the IR before the CPL!
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A guy at my flight school is doing a single engine IR before his CPL and an MEP/muti-engine IR upgrade and he's finding it very tough.
I'm following the MEP->CPL->IR route, and my speed control has got so much more accurate during the CPL I'm doing now. I already have an IMC.
Only a brave man (or girlie) would attempt an JAA IR before his (her) CPL!
(forget the ATPL exams, coz they're bollox all use when it comes to flying an aircraft)
I'm following the MEP->CPL->IR route, and my speed control has got so much more accurate during the CPL I'm doing now. I already have an IMC.
Only a brave man (or girlie) would attempt an JAA IR before his (her) CPL!
(forget the ATPL exams, coz they're bollox all use when it comes to flying an aircraft)
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I did the MEP/IR before CPL.
This was mainly due 2 ****e WX in Leeds.
Started with 3 hours MEP and 150 TT no IMC
The IR is bloody hard work which ever way you look at it.
You still have to do the IR bit on the CPL test even if you already have the IR.
I also did the CPL test in the twin which is much easer than doing it in the single after 55hours in the twin/sim. Three circuits with engine failure is just not an issue after the IR in comparison to glide approaches and PFLS in a complex single.
MJ
And i agree with WWW about blokes failing before they even sit in the cockpit with the CAAFU. If your not dressed the right way or look the part, your on a sticky wicket before the engine's even start.
This was mainly due 2 ****e WX in Leeds.
Started with 3 hours MEP and 150 TT no IMC
The IR is bloody hard work which ever way you look at it.
You still have to do the IR bit on the CPL test even if you already have the IR.
I also did the CPL test in the twin which is much easer than doing it in the single after 55hours in the twin/sim. Three circuits with engine failure is just not an issue after the IR in comparison to glide approaches and PFLS in a complex single.
MJ
And i agree with WWW about blokes failing before they even sit in the cockpit with the CAAFU. If your not dressed the right way or look the part, your on a sticky wicket before the engine's even start.
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Very few PPLs get the IR nowadays
Unlike in the US the IR has been hijacked by the professional pilot brigade
I know of many business people in the EU thet elect to get American IRs in order to fly their American aircraft
in Europe.
Did you know that many of the aircraft flying in and out of LHR have 'merely' the American IR.. shock horror
Unlike in the US the IR has been hijacked by the professional pilot brigade
I know of many business people in the EU thet elect to get American IRs in order to fly their American aircraft
in Europe.
Did you know that many of the aircraft flying in and out of LHR have 'merely' the American IR.. shock horror
