Learning to fly with a 'new' flying school
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Join Date: Apr 2002
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Learning to fly with a 'new' flying school
There's this new flying school (based in Czech Republic) called Cloud Nine Aviation and their promising low cost training, etc, etc.. But has anyone got any concerns about learning to fly with a newly established school- are there any extra risks?
Their site doesn't appear to be working at the minute, but I did manage to get onto it at one point. Very flashy and impressive, but a distinct lack of info on prices/facilities/etc.. They later emailed me some prices- for about what it would cost over here, they include accom., food....
Any thoughts?
Their site doesn't appear to be working at the minute, but I did manage to get onto it at one point. Very flashy and impressive, but a distinct lack of info on prices/facilities/etc.. They later emailed me some prices- for about what it would cost over here, they include accom., food....
Any thoughts?
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Hi danny
I'm about to start down the modular route, and am thinking of kick starting my training by doing my ppl abroad. Like to share prices and any other info you have about them pls. Thx.
I'm about to start down the modular route, and am thinking of kick starting my training by doing my ppl abroad. Like to share prices and any other info you have about them pls. Thx.
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There is no such thing as low cost flight training... 
Be careful that it is JAA certified (check on WWW.JAA.NL ) and that you NEVER pay in advance.
If you want cheaper PPL like training try some trusted names in the States and check them out on Pprune first!!
Be careful that it is JAA certified (check on WWW.JAA.NL ) and that you NEVER pay in advance.
If you want cheaper PPL like training try some trusted names in the States and check them out on Pprune first!!
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Cloud 9 Aviation
Ive just been out to Czech to take a look at there set up, was there on business so thought i'd bob in.
Good set up, met some of the team they have, some very experienced in the industry.
My brother is starting the modular with them, looked everywhere
and wouldn't touch some!!! UK FTO's loosing contracts and in big trouble.
They have a professional approach, small but right attitude.
I've got some info about them if anyone's interested.
Good set up, met some of the team they have, some very experienced in the industry.
My brother is starting the modular with them, looked everywhere
and wouldn't touch some!!! UK FTO's loosing contracts and in big trouble.
They have a professional approach, small but right attitude.
I've got some info about them if anyone's interested.
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Danny,
As I understand it Cloud Nine are an English managed school.
(Yorkshire immigrants would choose a country @ 19p/pint!!)
Their head of training would not be described as 'new'
(sorry AW).
But seriously, I will be keeping my eye on them--possible IR
this summer-- I hope it works out to all our advantage, good
luck to them I'm sure their school will soar in
the ratings (sorry again AW)- given the chance.
Captain K your post does appear rather biased--hmm
Avadoo
As I understand it Cloud Nine are an English managed school.
(Yorkshire immigrants would choose a country @ 19p/pint!!)
Their head of training would not be described as 'new'
(sorry AW).
But seriously, I will be keeping my eye on them--possible IR
this summer-- I hope it works out to all our advantage, good
luck to them I'm sure their school will soar in
the ratings (sorry again AW)- given the chance.
Captain K your post does appear rather biased--hmm
Avadoo
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Avadoo
From Yorkshire, would have to be!
Seriously I've looked around for my bro, went to a couple of FTO's myself a few years ago and have lots of friends from various, bad rumours going around at the moment about one biggy!!!
From Yorkshire, would have to be!
Seriously I've looked around for my bro, went to a couple of FTO's myself a few years ago and have lots of friends from various, bad rumours going around at the moment about one biggy!!!
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If you are looking for a low cost PPL, I chose Algoa in Port Elizabeth in South Africa in November 2002.
Under £2000 for 45 hours was about the best I could find - I have since found many other great reasons:
- I learnt to cope with windy conditions
- International Controlled airport so build radio confidence
- Very friendly (non profit) club
- Thorough course
- Game parks nearby
- Lots of aeroplanes and instructors - I passed my PPL in under 4 weeks and 48 hours.
- Don't have to convert to fly in UK
http://www.algoafc.co.za/
Hope this helps...
Under £2000 for 45 hours was about the best I could find - I have since found many other great reasons:
- I learnt to cope with windy conditions
- International Controlled airport so build radio confidence
- Very friendly (non profit) club
- Thorough course
- Game parks nearby
- Lots of aeroplanes and instructors - I passed my PPL in under 4 weeks and 48 hours.
- Don't have to convert to fly in UK
http://www.algoafc.co.za/
Hope this helps...
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This is the info they sent me via email about prices and courses:
Aviation Trainer too:
Cheapest I've seen, when you take into account costs of accommodation and so on! But I guess the price isn't everything....
The first start date for the CPL/IR is Monday 31st March.
The combined CPL/Multi Engine Class Rating is £4,995, including full board accommodation for 4 weeks and your CPL test fee, return flight to Prague, landing fees and aircraft hire for the test.
The Instrument Rating is £9,995 again including full board accommodation for 8 weeks and your first attempt at your IRT, landing fees and aircraft hire for the test.
MCC will be conducted on an FNPT 11 and including 2 weeks full board accommodation will cost £1,495.
The combined CPL/Multi Engine Class Rating is £4,995, including full board accommodation for 4 weeks and your CPL test fee, return flight to Prague, landing fees and aircraft hire for the test.
The Instrument Rating is £9,995 again including full board accommodation for 8 weeks and your first attempt at your IRT, landing fees and aircraft hire for the test.
MCC will be conducted on an FNPT 11 and including 2 weeks full board accommodation will cost £1,495.
There is no such thing as low cost flight training...
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dw:
(Sorry, my crystal ball was radiatingly fogged!
)
The advert I saw today for a Czech school didn't say 'fully JAA approved' .. not got it to hand and can't find it in 2 previous mags but the advert I saw had some strange phrase - was it "JAR qualified"? Anyway whatever it was, and whatever advert you are looking at, if you are interested, you NEED to ask and know the answer to what sort of licence or ratings you will end up with.
It's certainly not clear to me from the advert I read that you will get JAA qualifications without doing a foreign-ICAO conversion elsewhere afterwards. (This doesn't mean the place in the advert I saw doesn't get you a JAA licence, I'm just saying if it is for JAA qualifications, it needs some help with its advert!). I personally would at first assume from the wording I saw that it would be a Czech licence.
In one sense it doesn't matter whether it is a JAA or Czech licence / rating providing you KNOW in advance what you are going for and understand what to do about it should it be the Czech version, and then compare "apples to apples" - it's your choice where you learn. I meet SA PPLs in the UK who chose to do what they did, but knowing in advance exactly what they were going for (an SA PPL as a step towards a JAA CPL) and what it meant.
According to their adverts in FLYER. over the past few months, they are 'fully JAA approved'
)The advert I saw today for a Czech school didn't say 'fully JAA approved' .. not got it to hand and can't find it in 2 previous mags but the advert I saw had some strange phrase - was it "JAR qualified"? Anyway whatever it was, and whatever advert you are looking at, if you are interested, you NEED to ask and know the answer to what sort of licence or ratings you will end up with.
It's certainly not clear to me from the advert I read that you will get JAA qualifications without doing a foreign-ICAO conversion elsewhere afterwards. (This doesn't mean the place in the advert I saw doesn't get you a JAA licence, I'm just saying if it is for JAA qualifications, it needs some help with its advert!). I personally would at first assume from the wording I saw that it would be a Czech licence.
In one sense it doesn't matter whether it is a JAA or Czech licence / rating providing you KNOW in advance what you are going for and understand what to do about it should it be the Czech version, and then compare "apples to apples" - it's your choice where you learn. I meet SA PPLs in the UK who chose to do what they did, but knowing in advance exactly what they were going for (an SA PPL as a step towards a JAA CPL) and what it meant.
Now.
There is not much point in getting a full CPL IR that is not recognised in the UK.
The UK CAA does not list any Czech schools but then the only one it does list that is not on these shores is BAE in Jerez.
My understanding is that there are effectively 15 JAA member states for Wannabes, i.e. ones that can issue licenses acceptable to the other 14. Not all of the 15 have got their act together yet to actually do this in practice to make things even murkier!
The 15 states are:
Austria
Belgium
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal
Spain
Sweden
UK
Now, bear with me here... There are actually a whole lot more states "in the JAA" or in the process of joining. These are:
(Asterisk means they are candidate members)
Estonia *
Latvia *
Lithuania *
Poland
Ukraine *
Albania *
Bulgaria *
Croatia *
Cyprus *
Czech Rep
Former
Yugoslav
Republic of
Macedonia *
Republic of
Moldova *
Hungary
Malta
Monaco
Romania
Slovak Rep *
Slovenia
Turkey
`
---------------
Austria
Belgium
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal
Spain
Sweden
UK
---------------
Iceland
Switzerland
Norway
---------------
So. The Czech Republic is "in the JAA" and may well be able to claim they are "JAA Approved" or whatever.
But. The facts seem to suggest though that a Czech issued CPL IR will be of little use at your Virgin Atlantic interview.
Beware trying to find shortcuts or exotic schemes for making training cheaper. They generally only work if you are the first to find them and you never are. A PPL and 100hrs in somewhere like South Africa can save you some money but brings with it a few downsides.
There is no Right Answer else everyone would be doing the same thing and we could just put a sticky up at the top of the Wannabes Forum and there never would be any threads on training routes ever again.
DO beware though. In this industry there are people with fins on their backs who live on Wannabes money.
Good luck,
WWW
There is not much point in getting a full CPL IR that is not recognised in the UK.
The UK CAA does not list any Czech schools but then the only one it does list that is not on these shores is BAE in Jerez.
My understanding is that there are effectively 15 JAA member states for Wannabes, i.e. ones that can issue licenses acceptable to the other 14. Not all of the 15 have got their act together yet to actually do this in practice to make things even murkier!
The 15 states are:
Austria
Belgium
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal
Spain
Sweden
UK
Now, bear with me here... There are actually a whole lot more states "in the JAA" or in the process of joining. These are:
(Asterisk means they are candidate members)
Estonia *
Latvia *
Lithuania *
Poland
Ukraine *
Albania *
Bulgaria *
Croatia *
Cyprus *
Czech Rep
Former
Yugoslav
Republic of
Macedonia *
Republic of
Moldova *
Hungary
Malta
Monaco
Romania
Slovak Rep *
Slovenia
Turkey
`
---------------
Austria
Belgium
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Portugal
Spain
Sweden
UK
---------------
Iceland
Switzerland
Norway
---------------
So. The Czech Republic is "in the JAA" and may well be able to claim they are "JAA Approved" or whatever.
But. The facts seem to suggest though that a Czech issued CPL IR will be of little use at your Virgin Atlantic interview.
Beware trying to find shortcuts or exotic schemes for making training cheaper. They generally only work if you are the first to find them and you never are. A PPL and 100hrs in somewhere like South Africa can save you some money but brings with it a few downsides.
There is no Right Answer else everyone would be doing the same thing and we could just put a sticky up at the top of the Wannabes Forum and there never would be any threads on training routes ever again.
DO beware though. In this industry there are people with fins on their backs who live on Wannabes money.
Good luck,
WWW
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Your information is well out of date. The Czech Republic became fully JAR compliant approximately one year ago. That means that it is in exactly the same situation as the UK.
At least one of the countries which you list as being fully effective within JAR is not, and that is Germany.
What all this means is that anyone who trains in Czech will be issued with a full JAR licence which does not require any form of conversion. That shoud be adequate for a Virgin or any other interview!
At least one of the countries which you list as being fully effective within JAR is not, and that is Germany.
What all this means is that anyone who trains in Czech will be issued with a full JAR licence which does not require any form of conversion. That shoud be adequate for a Virgin or any other interview!
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WWW
Would you please clarify on the last three states you entered.
Iceland
Switzerland
Norway
where the letters not 'bold' because you were not shure if they are fully JAR licensed ?
If so I would like to clarify that from my bag of experience, Iceland was one of the first states to adopt the JAR's.
regards
Proxus
Iceland
Switzerland
Norway
where the letters not 'bold' because you were not shure if they are fully JAR licensed ?
If so I would like to clarify that from my bag of experience, Iceland was one of the first states to adopt the JAR's.
regards
Proxus
Oh well, please update us all then on the actual situation.
All my info was straight from the CAA and JAA websites.
If its out of date then what can I say..?
WWW
All my info was straight from the CAA and JAA websites.
If its out of date then what can I say..?
WWW
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WWW
I am truly sorry if I sounded a little harsh and defensive.
I can see now why you did not 'bold' them, it is because these three states are member of JAR ( and backdoor pass to EU for that matter ) through the EFTA agreement.
We are quite few here in Iceland ( 285K souls ) so we feel a little bit small in this BIG world. Therefore we tend to have a little inferiority complex and try to defend these ( little) things that we do have.
I maybe was thinking about my future ( hopefully ) airline interview and someone said " But is that a JAR state?" after reading it on this mighty and powerfull fountain of information that Pprune is.
p.s. this information is probably from the same side that I found mine i.e. http://www.jaa.nl/whatisthejaa/diagram2.pdf
Oh, and I found this also on the JAA side: "At present the JAA comprises of 26 full members and 11 candidate members"
http://www.jaa.nl/whatisthejaa/jaainfo.html#2
Oh, another footnote: we are having troubled times here in Iceland, all GA flights, that fly with Avgas 100 LL has been grounded for maybe for several weeks because of damaged fuel. Because we are so few here and far away the oil companys buy large quantities of fuel, so times between each shipment may be up to two years for the Avgas fuel. Very thorough fuel test have to be made to enshure that the fuel is up to standard.
Somehow the fuel that we have now does not have enough 'evaporation pressure' so it may form bubbles in fuel lines.
They found some fuel but it is being reserved for emergencies. But all crafts flying on Jet-A can fly.
So all FTOs and Charter companies are grounded for the time being. SAD
Regards
Proxus
I am truly sorry if I sounded a little harsh and defensive.
I can see now why you did not 'bold' them, it is because these three states are member of JAR ( and backdoor pass to EU for that matter ) through the EFTA agreement.
We are quite few here in Iceland ( 285K souls ) so we feel a little bit small in this BIG world. Therefore we tend to have a little inferiority complex and try to defend these ( little) things that we do have.
I maybe was thinking about my future ( hopefully ) airline interview and someone said " But is that a JAR state?" after reading it on this mighty and powerfull fountain of information that Pprune is.
p.s. this information is probably from the same side that I found mine i.e. http://www.jaa.nl/whatisthejaa/diagram2.pdf
Oh, and I found this also on the JAA side: "At present the JAA comprises of 26 full members and 11 candidate members"
http://www.jaa.nl/whatisthejaa/jaainfo.html#2
Oh, another footnote: we are having troubled times here in Iceland, all GA flights, that fly with Avgas 100 LL has been grounded for maybe for several weeks because of damaged fuel. Because we are so few here and far away the oil companys buy large quantities of fuel, so times between each shipment may be up to two years for the Avgas fuel. Very thorough fuel test have to be made to enshure that the fuel is up to standard.
Somehow the fuel that we have now does not have enough 'evaporation pressure' so it may form bubbles in fuel lines.
They found some fuel but it is being reserved for emergencies. But all crafts flying on Jet-A can fly.
So all FTOs and Charter companies are grounded for the time being. SAD
Regards
Proxus
Last edited by proxus; 28th Feb 2003 at 19:59.
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Is the wake-up call just around the corner?
Four years ago I asked FCL why the mad rush on JAA,
their response, "Well we would not want the others
running the Euro aviation system would we. We have to
get in early to have some control". All that early input
and teething problems must have been very expensive
both for the CAA and flying schools.However that would not matter at all if their captive customer base remained captive'
they would all get their investments back!
But just a minute, what about the nations who avoided all
those problems and sat on the fence for the dust to settle.
Oh dear, big problem ! some of them can now do
the same job as our CAA and schools, for a lot less. The
captive customer base has just gone away - big style.
So, does our CAA have its business head on at the moment
trying to figure out a rescue plan?- you know get FCL dept
going on VAT free commercial training and monitoring a
good VTR system --I hope so for their sake. One things for
sure though, if I were them, I'd omit the cheaper alternatives
qualifications from my web-site too, in fact, if my web-man
advertised the competition on my own site I'd sack him
on the spot.
Another example of good quality Brit work given away
for others to coin-in on.
I hope the end product is cheaper training,for the airlines
included, maybe they would reconsider paying for type-ratings!!
Mr Wrigley could you point us in the direction of some
documentary evidence (in English) to support and hence
promote your post?
Avadoo
Four years ago I asked FCL why the mad rush on JAA,
their response, "Well we would not want the others
running the Euro aviation system would we. We have to
get in early to have some control". All that early input
and teething problems must have been very expensive
both for the CAA and flying schools.However that would not matter at all if their captive customer base remained captive'
they would all get their investments back!
But just a minute, what about the nations who avoided all
those problems and sat on the fence for the dust to settle.
Oh dear, big problem ! some of them can now do
the same job as our CAA and schools, for a lot less. The
captive customer base has just gone away - big style.
So, does our CAA have its business head on at the moment
trying to figure out a rescue plan?- you know get FCL dept
going on VAT free commercial training and monitoring a
good VTR system --I hope so for their sake. One things for
sure though, if I were them, I'd omit the cheaper alternatives
qualifications from my web-site too, in fact, if my web-man
advertised the competition on my own site I'd sack him
on the spot.
Another example of good quality Brit work given away
for others to coin-in on.
I hope the end product is cheaper training,for the airlines
included, maybe they would reconsider paying for type-ratings!!
Mr Wrigley could you point us in the direction of some
documentary evidence (in English) to support and hence
promote your post?
Avadoo
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As someone directly working with the JAA Flight Crew Licensing organisation I would point out that much of the information supplied by wee willie welshman is totally inaccurate.
The Czech Republic, along with Iceland, UK, France, Netherlands, Spain and some others have adopted the JAR-FCL and it matters not in which of these states you train and are examined - they are all equal and accepted throughout.
A number of European States have not adopted including such places as Germany, Malta, Greece, Italy.
Anyone requiring up to date knowledge should contact JAA in Hoofdorp. THe situation is changing continually as more states adopt.
The Czech Republic, along with Iceland, UK, France, Netherlands, Spain and some others have adopted the JAR-FCL and it matters not in which of these states you train and are examined - they are all equal and accepted throughout.
A number of European States have not adopted including such places as Germany, Malta, Greece, Italy.
Anyone requiring up to date knowledge should contact JAA in Hoofdorp. THe situation is changing continually as more states adopt.
Well look here Peterpam. Before bombarding me with abusive emails because I don't know the exact state of play with JAA FTO regs this week stop and think.
If *I* can't find out for sure then sure as heck Joe Wannabe can't either. The JAA should be ashamed of its information management skills under such circumstances.
I can't get a straight answer out of anyone so if you wish to pop up and provide one then you are welcome friend.
So come on then - lets have it all chapter and verse please.
Cheers
WWW
If *I* can't find out for sure then sure as heck Joe Wannabe can't either. The JAA should be ashamed of its information management skills under such circumstances.
I can't get a straight answer out of anyone so if you wish to pop up and provide one then you are welcome friend.
So come on then - lets have it all chapter and verse please.
Cheers
WWW
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It seems that a number of NEW users from York, Yorkshire and Worchester have an interest in this place if you ask me... Maybe an idea to check these people out on an administrator level???
Follow WWW his advice and check the official sites!!!!
Sorry DannyW but I really believe there is no such thing as cheap flight training. Usually if it seems to be too good to be true it is! There is a funny thing about aviation that if you want people to part of their money you claim something is cheap but there is usually a catch somewhere. Maybe not the case here but I rather warn people than hear the stories afterwards.
Just like I did on JAC Academy, who don't have real offices it seems just a mailbox!
The one thing I do agree with all those Yorkshire man is is that also in the UK be careful, but that should be no reason not to go to some of the excellent UK FTO's.
I went to Professional Air Training, not the cheapest but one of the best. Consider Bristol or Triple A. All small but no upfront payment and flying in the UK, don't gamble on something new if it has not proven itself. If money is the problem you shouldnt go for the "New and Cheapest in town"
Good luck!
Follow WWW his advice and check the official sites!!!!
Sorry DannyW but I really believe there is no such thing as cheap flight training. Usually if it seems to be too good to be true it is! There is a funny thing about aviation that if you want people to part of their money you claim something is cheap but there is usually a catch somewhere. Maybe not the case here but I rather warn people than hear the stories afterwards.
Just like I did on JAC Academy, who don't have real offices it seems just a mailbox!
The one thing I do agree with all those Yorkshire man is is that also in the UK be careful, but that should be no reason not to go to some of the excellent UK FTO's.
I went to Professional Air Training, not the cheapest but one of the best. Consider Bristol or Triple A. All small but no upfront payment and flying in the UK, don't gamble on something new if it has not proven itself. If money is the problem you shouldnt go for the "New and Cheapest in town"
Good luck!