Help me Help You
Guest
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Help me Help You
Cheesy I know but
I Pay Thousands for Groundschool, Tens of thousands for Flight School, I have to pay for all my transport and accommodation around the country. When I get ill (from all the stress) I have to pay for all my treatment; I study 6.5 Days a week, resulting in no ability to hold a job of any description. Yet have to pay VATon virtually everything, and have no recognition from the government for my efforts to attain a job that will result in considerable tax revenue.
However.
If I attended College 2 days a week, learning to paint walls, I would receive subsidized food, transport receive free healthcare, be eligible for Student Loans, and actually get paid to attend!!! All courtesy of the taxpayers (see above), resulting in a qualification that would end in far lower revenue to the treasury.
Don’t get me wrong on this I’m all for social justice and Education is invaluable to all, however I am currently in the position to meet a MP who is interested and yet unaware of these issues.
I also wish to point out the JAA/CAA issues that is currently a huge burden on all students, It appears to me they have no ombudsman, and are a totally self regulating monopoly, a topical issue in light of the SQA fiasco in Scotland.
Basically I’m asking for input.
What are your Troubles, worries, grievances of the whole system, Ideas comments and experiences can either be posted hear or E-mailed in confidence to [email protected]
Thanks in Advance
Red
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 11 December 2000).]
I Pay Thousands for Groundschool, Tens of thousands for Flight School, I have to pay for all my transport and accommodation around the country. When I get ill (from all the stress) I have to pay for all my treatment; I study 6.5 Days a week, resulting in no ability to hold a job of any description. Yet have to pay VATon virtually everything, and have no recognition from the government for my efforts to attain a job that will result in considerable tax revenue.
However.
If I attended College 2 days a week, learning to paint walls, I would receive subsidized food, transport receive free healthcare, be eligible for Student Loans, and actually get paid to attend!!! All courtesy of the taxpayers (see above), resulting in a qualification that would end in far lower revenue to the treasury.
Don’t get me wrong on this I’m all for social justice and Education is invaluable to all, however I am currently in the position to meet a MP who is interested and yet unaware of these issues.
I also wish to point out the JAA/CAA issues that is currently a huge burden on all students, It appears to me they have no ombudsman, and are a totally self regulating monopoly, a topical issue in light of the SQA fiasco in Scotland.
Basically I’m asking for input.
What are your Troubles, worries, grievances of the whole system, Ideas comments and experiences can either be posted hear or E-mailed in confidence to [email protected]
Thanks in Advance
Red
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 11 December 2000).]
Guest
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Couldnt agree more. I know of a guy who is doing a Microsoft computer course and has received 80% of the fees back 
. Am I right in thinking that our courses are no longer eligible for NVQ tax relief??
Absolutely ridiculous, come on chancellor, sort it out.
Rich
. Am I right in thinking that our courses are no longer eligible for NVQ tax relief??Absolutely ridiculous, come on chancellor, sort it out.
Rich
Guest
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Government's new "Individual Learning Account" scheme (the £150 voucher element and the more generous training subsidy element) specifically excludes commercial flying training. I argued the point and was told that flying, even for the purpose of obtaining a commercial licence, is officially considered to be a hobby or interest. It's a minor example, but demonstrates the need to educate and lobby the policy makers.
Guest
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Great Guys, This is what I need & more experiences would be great.
NVQ was abolished, I was a lucky one to get in early enought. 23% off all you flying cost?. godsend, even then it's still a huge struggle. It also came with a huge manual, that could be filled in in parrallel with training. resulting in a NVQ qualification. What the He|| was the ATPL then??? It is not seen in the goverments Eyes as a qualification. there are universitys offering degrees in; the life and times of david becham (If thats how you spell it those with a PHd in Dave please do tell), Science of Surfing and the Lryical content of the Prodigy!!
London School of Bussiness Estimate a 11.3% increase in productivity over industry average after purchase of a Coperate Jet, plus all the Ground staff, fuel tax, manufactering jobs, etc etc etc... 11.3%!!!
Not wishing to blow the trumpet too much, pilots make a huge difference to the economy, time 2 jag took note.
NVQ was abolished, I was a lucky one to get in early enought. 23% off all you flying cost?. godsend, even then it's still a huge struggle. It also came with a huge manual, that could be filled in in parrallel with training. resulting in a NVQ qualification. What the He|| was the ATPL then??? It is not seen in the goverments Eyes as a qualification. there are universitys offering degrees in; the life and times of david becham (If thats how you spell it those with a PHd in Dave please do tell), Science of Surfing and the Lryical content of the Prodigy!!
London School of Bussiness Estimate a 11.3% increase in productivity over industry average after purchase of a Coperate Jet, plus all the Ground staff, fuel tax, manufactering jobs, etc etc etc... 11.3%!!!
Not wishing to blow the trumpet too much, pilots make a huge difference to the economy, time 2 jag took note.
Guest
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Damn right Red. I've experienced both sides. Left school - didn't have the bottle to follow "the dream," ended up doing some nonsense computing course which I hated. Did a full time course [2.5 days per week] got £2500 grant per year + all course fees paid + travelling expenses - I was sitting pretty.
Like most students all that money, & I mean all that money got pissed away - while I got an HND in pub sports at the local.
Then came the gift flight at the local club....and the debt has been clocking up ever since.
I missed the NVQ, have to travel from NE Scotland to England everytime I want to sit an exam, initial medical etc. Ignoring the horrendous cost of the actual training, the cost of just getting a licence or rating issued is a bloody disgrace.
To compare, a friend of mine is a rally driver. His medical - £45, allows him to race in any event in the UK. For the initial Class1 we pay £400 [+cost of trip to London], hell I'm away to spend another £64 on a Night Rating next week. It's a fargin disgrace.
Sorry to ramble on but I am deeply disillusioned with the whole system. We huff & we puff, write the odd nasty letter, but at the end of the day we still cough up because we're following the dream - and we'll do anything to get there. We don't get help from the government we get hurdles.
One pissed off Wannabee.
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I Love the smell of Kerosene in the morning, smells like.... Destiny
Like most students all that money, & I mean all that money got pissed away - while I got an HND in pub sports at the local.
Then came the gift flight at the local club....and the debt has been clocking up ever since.
I missed the NVQ, have to travel from NE Scotland to England everytime I want to sit an exam, initial medical etc. Ignoring the horrendous cost of the actual training, the cost of just getting a licence or rating issued is a bloody disgrace.
To compare, a friend of mine is a rally driver. His medical - £45, allows him to race in any event in the UK. For the initial Class1 we pay £400 [+cost of trip to London], hell I'm away to spend another £64 on a Night Rating next week. It's a fargin disgrace.
Sorry to ramble on but I am deeply disillusioned with the whole system. We huff & we puff, write the odd nasty letter, but at the end of the day we still cough up because we're following the dream - and we'll do anything to get there. We don't get help from the government we get hurdles.
One pissed off Wannabee.
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I Love the smell of Kerosene in the morning, smells like.... Destiny
Guest
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Another piece of nonsense was the abolition of the BCPL which allowed instructors to build time without investing phenomenal amounts of money on full frozen ATPL. And does anybody really think that having a JAR licence from the UK is actually going to be able to apply for a job in, for instance, France?
Let's file a load of differences with the JAA:
Bring back national licences (who cares if I can't get a job in Lichtenstein?).
Bring back national exams (written by someone who speaks your own Mother tongue).
Bring back the BCPL.
Bring back licences for life ie not 5 year issues.
Bring back tax relief on bona fide training including hrs building where required.
If we're stuck with JAR:
Publish the damn questions.
Get rid of the extraneous nonsense in, for example, the Air Law paper.
And err, what was the question.....
Let's file a load of differences with the JAA:
Bring back national licences (who cares if I can't get a job in Lichtenstein?).
Bring back national exams (written by someone who speaks your own Mother tongue).
Bring back the BCPL.
Bring back licences for life ie not 5 year issues.
Bring back tax relief on bona fide training including hrs building where required.
If we're stuck with JAR:
Publish the damn questions.
Get rid of the extraneous nonsense in, for example, the Air Law paper.
And err, what was the question.....
Guest
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GOOD CALL!
I haven't got anything to add... it's all been said. I just want to reinforce the original points made.
So, you pay 22% tax when you earn the money, and 17% when you spend it on flight training. This is a huge injustice, considering all those tens of thousands of students on government-funded training schemes. In particular, the university issue (not so prevalent now that tuition fees have been introduced).
I did have some communication with Lord MacDonald and another senior civil servant about the amount of cack there is in the exams. Pointed out that if billions of passengers are flown safely by American qualified pilots every year, where is the advantage of having a different (and more expensive to administer) training scheme? Lord M. was not interested in the issue, and the senior civil servant just fobbed me off with a whole load of stuff about EU integration.
I agree that it would be very nice to harmonise licenses. However, combining the most pointless aspects of all the ground exams is not the way to go. The way to go? Take the FAA exams, Anglicise them, and bish-bash-bosh, syllabus of the future.
These are my two biggest problems in the industry. So much so that I am very, very, very keen to emigrate (hopefully to the USA). Fortunately, the government is paying for my degree, which (for some obscure reason) will give me browny-points when I come to fill in an 'I want to live in your country' form.
I haven't got anything to add... it's all been said. I just want to reinforce the original points made.
So, you pay 22% tax when you earn the money, and 17% when you spend it on flight training. This is a huge injustice, considering all those tens of thousands of students on government-funded training schemes. In particular, the university issue (not so prevalent now that tuition fees have been introduced).
I did have some communication with Lord MacDonald and another senior civil servant about the amount of cack there is in the exams. Pointed out that if billions of passengers are flown safely by American qualified pilots every year, where is the advantage of having a different (and more expensive to administer) training scheme? Lord M. was not interested in the issue, and the senior civil servant just fobbed me off with a whole load of stuff about EU integration.
I agree that it would be very nice to harmonise licenses. However, combining the most pointless aspects of all the ground exams is not the way to go. The way to go? Take the FAA exams, Anglicise them, and bish-bash-bosh, syllabus of the future.
These are my two biggest problems in the industry. So much so that I am very, very, very keen to emigrate (hopefully to the USA). Fortunately, the government is paying for my degree, which (for some obscure reason) will give me browny-points when I come to fill in an 'I want to live in your country' form.
Guest
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I too had been speaking to an MP about this, he was intrested as he used to fly but even though its now a euopean licence and european countries get a discount vat releif etc. its been harmonied so that is still your courties govening body that has final say to tax relif etc. Also the reason we now have to do 800 ground school is because some other countries have to do this, so we also, but they get there fees paid for. Its amazing who the govenment makes money.
If you look at the average cost to become a JAA ATP/ME/IR pilot the govenment will now make 10 Million extra for each 100 pilots. There not silly are they.
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The approach looked good, the landing was F****** awful.
If you look at the average cost to become a JAA ATP/ME/IR pilot the govenment will now make 10 Million extra for each 100 pilots. There not silly are they.
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The approach looked good, the landing was F****** awful.
Guest
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Hi Wannabes,
I admit this is an expensive profession but maybe in the long term will pay back.
I'm about to take an xtension for my mortgage to borrow another £25,000.00 and go for a part time job just to keep that running. It is bloody expensive. But what worries me is if we pay all this and either fail (God Forbid)or dont get a job, wot do we do?
I suppose another thing for the higher charges could be that no Tom, Dick and Harry from the street goes for it. It is a responsible job and takes alotta money and dedication to go for it.
Be confident and God will be with u (as long as u talk to him often and be best frinds).
DoWeHaveLiftOff?
I admit this is an expensive profession but maybe in the long term will pay back.
I'm about to take an xtension for my mortgage to borrow another £25,000.00 and go for a part time job just to keep that running. It is bloody expensive. But what worries me is if we pay all this and either fail (God Forbid)or dont get a job, wot do we do?
I suppose another thing for the higher charges could be that no Tom, Dick and Harry from the street goes for it. It is a responsible job and takes alotta money and dedication to go for it.
Be confident and God will be with u (as long as u talk to him often and be best frinds).
DoWeHaveLiftOff?
Guest
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The NVQ discount was so heavily abused by people and flying schools to fund cheap PPL's (there were also people doing sport diving courses and getting NVQ discount). As far as I can remember there was only one airline that organised the final stage of the Level 4 award, but I am not sure if anyone actually recieved the qualification.
DoWeHaveLiftOff, your point about the costs keeping every Tom Dick and Harry out of the cockpit. Train operating companies have to pay for driver training for their staff, which amounts to about GBP60,000 per driver, train drivers have an equally responsible job as far as public safety goes. Funny thing is you never see ads for "learn to be a train driver for only 25,000 pounds" anywhere.
One of my friends is a train driver, he is earning around GBP23,000 p/a (not including overtime). He could transfer to another train operating company and earn more.
So the question remains why do we have so little financial help in our training? The answer probably lies in the fact that politicians don't take much notice of such a small group of voters (who are likely to be middle class, right of centre) and also the airlines are happy with the fact that someonelse is footing, at least part, of their training bill.
Under the Dutch tax system, any training for any vocational training is liable to a tax rebate at the moment, but the burden of proof lies with the applicant to show that it is not just for fun that the training is being carried out.
Dunno if any of this rambling helps.
DoWeHaveLiftOff, your point about the costs keeping every Tom Dick and Harry out of the cockpit. Train operating companies have to pay for driver training for their staff, which amounts to about GBP60,000 per driver, train drivers have an equally responsible job as far as public safety goes. Funny thing is you never see ads for "learn to be a train driver for only 25,000 pounds" anywhere.
One of my friends is a train driver, he is earning around GBP23,000 p/a (not including overtime). He could transfer to another train operating company and earn more.
So the question remains why do we have so little financial help in our training? The answer probably lies in the fact that politicians don't take much notice of such a small group of voters (who are likely to be middle class, right of centre) and also the airlines are happy with the fact that someonelse is footing, at least part, of their training bill.
Under the Dutch tax system, any training for any vocational training is liable to a tax rebate at the moment, but the burden of proof lies with the applicant to show that it is not just for fun that the training is being carried out.
Dunno if any of this rambling helps.
Guest
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Imagine that it costs thousands to train for your dream job, you know that you will work and study hard, be diligent, work the worst shifts when initially qualified and you will be responsible for thousands of lives every year.
The best bit is the government pays for it all, then after a couple of years improving your skills you quit for the private sector or bugger off abroad to work where you skills are highly valued - you are a doctor or dentist.
I know that it is an extreme comparison, but a little help would be nice from the government - lets be honest, they paid all my fees to study history for four years without complaining and they are now paying for me to attend some computer courses.
If you want the government to listen to you, and make the system a little fairer, then you will need the support of pilots, not wannabees. But if they had to pay for it then what stops them thinking we shouldn't as well, and there are always going to be enough people willing to risk the massive debts to follow a dream - therefore, no risk of a major pilot shortage in the near future.
The government will listen if the press are interested, you make enough noise and you have public support. Can't see that happening in this case.
I hope you have more success than my pessimism on the issue would indicate, any government assistance would be a start.
The best bit is the government pays for it all, then after a couple of years improving your skills you quit for the private sector or bugger off abroad to work where you skills are highly valued - you are a doctor or dentist.
I know that it is an extreme comparison, but a little help would be nice from the government - lets be honest, they paid all my fees to study history for four years without complaining and they are now paying for me to attend some computer courses.
If you want the government to listen to you, and make the system a little fairer, then you will need the support of pilots, not wannabees. But if they had to pay for it then what stops them thinking we shouldn't as well, and there are always going to be enough people willing to risk the massive debts to follow a dream - therefore, no risk of a major pilot shortage in the near future.
The government will listen if the press are interested, you make enough noise and you have public support. Can't see that happening in this case.
I hope you have more success than my pessimism on the issue would indicate, any government assistance would be a start.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Problem..
1. JAA requirements take more time
2. JAA requirements are more expensive
3. NVQ is gone
3. Fuel has gone up
The advantage is that we can work
across Europe (Air France) and its a lot
safer and its more efficient
I think not
Q: Who asked the CAA To implement all this JAA nonsense ?
A: Its all Eurodriven one bureaucracy driving another - its bureaucracy out of control. Its only function is to provide more jobs for more bureaucracy.
At NICE Mr Blair signed up to losing the Euro Industrial Policy veto so expect even more of this CR@p in the future.....
[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 12 December 2000).]
1. JAA requirements take more time
2. JAA requirements are more expensive
3. NVQ is gone
3. Fuel has gone up
The advantage is that we can work
across Europe (Air France) and its a lot
safer and its more efficient
I think not
Q: Who asked the CAA To implement all this JAA nonsense ?
A: Its all Eurodriven one bureaucracy driving another - its bureaucracy out of control. Its only function is to provide more jobs for more bureaucracy.
At NICE Mr Blair signed up to losing the Euro Industrial Policy veto so expect even more of this CR@p in the future.....
[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 12 December 2000).]
Guest
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Hi PFO
Could not agree more, Its the usual system of supply and demand. If there are plenty of potential pilots willing to fund their dreams then the Govermentment will sit back and rake in the extra cash.
Question? Are all the other European countries also intrducing the JAA regulations, and will all the potential new members also have to introduce JAA? or is the UK the only one "leading the way"
Could not agree more, Its the usual system of supply and demand. If there are plenty of potential pilots willing to fund their dreams then the Govermentment will sit back and rake in the extra cash.
Question? Are all the other European countries also intrducing the JAA regulations, and will all the potential new members also have to introduce JAA? or is the UK the only one "leading the way"
Guest
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Ham Phisted makes a good point about bringing back the BCPL.
As the BCPL was a national licence, and national licences are allowed even with the mind boggling JAA "harmanisation" there is no reason to prevent the CAA re-introducing it. The fact that it was so popular, surely shows that it was a sensible solution to many people's needs.
Heck, the CAA is bringing in a National PPL, so they could bring in a new National BCPL.
Is there any (valid - not administrative or emotive) reason to not reintroduce the BCPL and the corresponding class 2 medical? Or am I just showing too much common sense?
One thing is certain....a new BCPL won't happen unless "organisations" eg AOPA, lobby the CAA for it. Unfortunately AOPA is fairly expensive for wannabies (about the cost of a CRP5 every year) at a time when every penny counts. Perhaps they would get more members if they gave a 75% "student" discount until you are in a position to earn some money from your flying.
Oh dear, time to stop rambling.
As the BCPL was a national licence, and national licences are allowed even with the mind boggling JAA "harmanisation" there is no reason to prevent the CAA re-introducing it. The fact that it was so popular, surely shows that it was a sensible solution to many people's needs.
Heck, the CAA is bringing in a National PPL, so they could bring in a new National BCPL.
Is there any (valid - not administrative or emotive) reason to not reintroduce the BCPL and the corresponding class 2 medical? Or am I just showing too much common sense?
One thing is certain....a new BCPL won't happen unless "organisations" eg AOPA, lobby the CAA for it. Unfortunately AOPA is fairly expensive for wannabies (about the cost of a CRP5 every year) at a time when every penny counts. Perhaps they would get more members if they gave a 75% "student" discount until you are in a position to earn some money from your flying.
Oh dear, time to stop rambling.
Guest
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Ditto the above two posts.
Going back to the first post on this thread, how many people do you know who travel the length of the country, spending hundreads of pounds on aptitude tests or thousands of pounds on their own training to become a wall painter (etc. other jobs etc.)?
We're all bent on this thing and will do it with NVQ or not. SUPPLY an DEMAND. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for making it hard for us all, just being realistic.
If the economy of this country was being threatened by a shortage of pilots, then I'm sure Tony would be scribbling cheques to us all willy-nilly.
It's not fair but neither is life.
Going back to the first post on this thread, how many people do you know who travel the length of the country, spending hundreads of pounds on aptitude tests or thousands of pounds on their own training to become a wall painter (etc. other jobs etc.)?
We're all bent on this thing and will do it with NVQ or not. SUPPLY an DEMAND. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for making it hard for us all, just being realistic.
If the economy of this country was being threatened by a shortage of pilots, then I'm sure Tony would be scribbling cheques to us all willy-nilly.
It's not fair but neither is life.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Why not retain the UK CPL/ATPL as well
If people need to migrate to other
European countries to get work then
- they can pay - they choose
I suspect that not many will take this
option as most people dont speak French
German in the UK and other countries
will need this - which makes the whole exercise a waste of time
Is the training of Dental Students going
to be harmonised throughout Europe ?
I think not.
If people need to migrate to other
European countries to get work then
- they can pay - they choose
I suspect that not many will take this
option as most people dont speak French
German in the UK and other countries
will need this - which makes the whole exercise a waste of time
Is the training of Dental Students going
to be harmonised throughout Europe ?
I think not.