To Intergrate or not to Intergrate
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To Intergrate or not to Intergrate
Chaps and Chapess there are thoughts as to what the Airlines prefer when recruiting a First officer..
Do they Prefer One who has taken the Intergrated route or the Modular route to obtain one`s ATPL
Awaiting...
Do they Prefer One who has taken the Intergrated route or the Modular route to obtain one`s ATPL
Awaiting...
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Apple,
this is a great question which will keep doing the rounds forever. I personally don't think there is an answer to it.
All airlines have totally different selection procedures. And all airlines more importantly have different Chief Pilot's and DFO's. Therefore all airlines in my opinoin have different tastes about what they want.
An integrated course will prove to an airline (if you do very well) that you have handled a large amount of information and testing very well, and also in very short time. You will have also completed the same course that many airline Cadets go through.
A Modular route shows different valuable disciplines, such as being able to work and study AND learn new motor skills all at the same time. These are indeed very flexible and valuable assets.
However, I went down the integrated route and was lucky enough to gain a place on a competitive Airline placement programme after my integrated course ended. I got the feeling that both the training provider and my airline liked the fact I had gone to Oxford and had done reasonably OK.
It gives them an audit trail if you like. Lots of reports and people that they know to check me against.....all very reassuring.
I felt (maybe incorrectly), that a Modular route was scrutinised very closely in every area. This is because a modular route is much more difficult to check up against....due to the fact that training elements may take place in different establishments.
All I can say is that I was integrated and I really enjoyed it. It was good for me. I am flying a 757 as my first job. This I guess doesn't happen that often, but it DOES happen from time to time. So, which ever route you choose, just try your hardest, be nice, make contacts and don't shut any doors on yourself.
I paid my (lot) of money, and luckily I got what I dreamt of at the beginning.
At the end of the day, I am still convinced that most of comes down to having a positive mental attitude, being average (not being a stunt flyer), right place right time and a whole load of luck at every stage!!!
GOOD LUCK.
this is a great question which will keep doing the rounds forever. I personally don't think there is an answer to it.
All airlines have totally different selection procedures. And all airlines more importantly have different Chief Pilot's and DFO's. Therefore all airlines in my opinoin have different tastes about what they want.
An integrated course will prove to an airline (if you do very well) that you have handled a large amount of information and testing very well, and also in very short time. You will have also completed the same course that many airline Cadets go through.
A Modular route shows different valuable disciplines, such as being able to work and study AND learn new motor skills all at the same time. These are indeed very flexible and valuable assets.
However, I went down the integrated route and was lucky enough to gain a place on a competitive Airline placement programme after my integrated course ended. I got the feeling that both the training provider and my airline liked the fact I had gone to Oxford and had done reasonably OK.
It gives them an audit trail if you like. Lots of reports and people that they know to check me against.....all very reassuring.
I felt (maybe incorrectly), that a Modular route was scrutinised very closely in every area. This is because a modular route is much more difficult to check up against....due to the fact that training elements may take place in different establishments.
All I can say is that I was integrated and I really enjoyed it. It was good for me. I am flying a 757 as my first job. This I guess doesn't happen that often, but it DOES happen from time to time. So, which ever route you choose, just try your hardest, be nice, make contacts and don't shut any doors on yourself.
I paid my (lot) of money, and luckily I got what I dreamt of at the beginning.
At the end of the day, I am still convinced that most of comes down to having a positive mental attitude, being average (not being a stunt flyer), right place right time and a whole load of luck at every stage!!!
GOOD LUCK.
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From the various recruitment stories I've heard in the last 6 months it seems that there are one or two companies who favour Integrated over Modular. British Airways' Self-Sponsored Pilot Scheme was only open to
Integrated students. However Robin Glover, BA's Flight Manager Pilot Recruitment recently stated that a small number of modular students were in the process of being selected (before 110901) in order to assess the capabilities of the non-integrated. The problem with modular is that up until now standards have varied between individuals and that the integrated route provided people of a known quantity, who were therefore a lower risk.
Since the implementation of JAR there are a large amount of people who are doing the modular route back-to-back which provides the consistency that an integrated course offers. This is sensible for most people who have a PPL + a few hours joyriding/IMCing/Twinning as it removes the need to start from scratch. The CPL course will hopefully remove all of the bad habits supposedly gained while hours building in Florida etc. Hence, upon completion of the course both sets of people will have a CPL/IR, Frozen ATPL and low hours. Hopefully the airlines will follow BA's experiment and give the modular people a chance.
Many modular pilots used Brymon as their launchpad, but since it has been placed under the BA Citiexpress umbrella their last round of recruitment excluded those with low-hours from non-integrated courses (although I believe there were the odd few who were allowed to proceed through to the interview stage, presumably as an experiment).
The ATP Academy don't discriminate between the two groups, neither do Britannia or the handful of other airlines who have taken on the low-houred in the last year.
Bottom Line(s):
If I were you I would risk going modular, and keep my fingers crossed that by the time the industry upturn occurs (roughly when you will be finishing whichever course - if you start soon) the airlines will all have come to their senses and appreciate the modular more.
All a lottery really innit.
sB
Integrated students. However Robin Glover, BA's Flight Manager Pilot Recruitment recently stated that a small number of modular students were in the process of being selected (before 110901) in order to assess the capabilities of the non-integrated. The problem with modular is that up until now standards have varied between individuals and that the integrated route provided people of a known quantity, who were therefore a lower risk.
Since the implementation of JAR there are a large amount of people who are doing the modular route back-to-back which provides the consistency that an integrated course offers. This is sensible for most people who have a PPL + a few hours joyriding/IMCing/Twinning as it removes the need to start from scratch. The CPL course will hopefully remove all of the bad habits supposedly gained while hours building in Florida etc. Hence, upon completion of the course both sets of people will have a CPL/IR, Frozen ATPL and low hours. Hopefully the airlines will follow BA's experiment and give the modular people a chance.
Many modular pilots used Brymon as their launchpad, but since it has been placed under the BA Citiexpress umbrella their last round of recruitment excluded those with low-hours from non-integrated courses (although I believe there were the odd few who were allowed to proceed through to the interview stage, presumably as an experiment).
The ATP Academy don't discriminate between the two groups, neither do Britannia or the handful of other airlines who have taken on the low-houred in the last year.
Bottom Line(s):
If I were you I would risk going modular, and keep my fingers crossed that by the time the industry upturn occurs (roughly when you will be finishing whichever course - if you start soon) the airlines will all have come to their senses and appreciate the modular more.
All a lottery really innit.
sB
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Thats the question on most wannabes minds. Its been done here on pprune so many times, and yet there is not always a clear cut answer. I'm trying to figure it out myself at the moment as I hope to start training this coming summer 
One point is that airlines in the past have been getting CV's from CAP509ers and 'Self-Improvers'. With the JAA system, the self improver method has been replaced with he Modular system, and airlines may not have that much experience of these students yet.
I guess the Modular system has been designed to either reduce the employability differences between new 509/Self Improver FATPL holders OR to reduce the course and cost difference, hoping most people will choose to do an Integrated course
I'm leaning strongly towards Modular on an integrated timescale. Hopefully, like with most qualifications getting that job should be based on your results e.g. first time IR pass, good marks in written ATPLS's.
Just my take on things.
Good luck, JT8
One point is that airlines in the past have been getting CV's from CAP509ers and 'Self-Improvers'. With the JAA system, the self improver method has been replaced with he Modular system, and airlines may not have that much experience of these students yet.
I guess the Modular system has been designed to either reduce the employability differences between new 509/Self Improver FATPL holders OR to reduce the course and cost difference, hoping most people will choose to do an Integrated course
I'm leaning strongly towards Modular on an integrated timescale. Hopefully, like with most qualifications getting that job should be based on your results e.g. first time IR pass, good marks in written ATPLS's.
Just my take on things.
Good luck, JT8
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Another point to bear in mind apple at this point in time is the flexibility modular training allows you, particularly when it comes to timing your "end-of-training" and payment options. With the current climate the way it is, to me that's quite a big plus in favour of modular.
But yes, both have pros and cons.
But yes, both have pros and cons.
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Essentially, therefore, we're a little stuffed either way. We can bank on a quick upturn in the industry and do an intergrated course and risk not being able to get a job and be thousands in debt, or....we can play it safe and do a modualr course but be pretty much unmarketable at the end of it.
As Tony the Tiger once said, 'GREEEATTTTTTTTTTT'
As Tony the Tiger once said, 'GREEEATTTTTTTTTTT'
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As I work for one of the airlines based at LTN I decided to ask this question to one of the Captains who also holds a very high position within the company. His view - albeit probably his personal view - was that airlines prefer ab-intio/integrated students because they have done all of their training at the same establishment as opposed to the modular route where you can mix and match.
It therefore begs the question that if you were to do your modular training all at one school - say OATS - would that be viewed on in preference to somebody who had done their modules at different schools?
My intention is to do my modules all at the same school.
I think modular is definitely the wise move in the current climate and Gonville's hit the nail right on the head re choosing your finishing time.
Whatever route you choose, Good Luck!
MB
It therefore begs the question that if you were to do your modular training all at one school - say OATS - would that be viewed on in preference to somebody who had done their modules at different schools?
My intention is to do my modules all at the same school.
I think modular is definitely the wise move in the current climate and Gonville's hit the nail right on the head re choosing your finishing time.
Whatever route you choose, Good Luck!
MB
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Tailscrape:
What a refreshing balanced response …sadly lacking here these days!
You are dead right there is no easy answer.
I was modular, and at the time (two years ago) I wished that I had had the money to go integrated.
However I think modular is probably the way to go in view of the current employment situation. HOWEVER, that will not be the case for all integrated students…right place right time still has a lot to do with things.
Right now I am happy that I went down the modular route and chose to take some time out to instruct, at least I am flying and building some hours, all be it for buttons.
‘Perhaps’ for the moment modular ‘might’ be the best option for the reasons stated in the other posts.
Both routes are right... is the indecisive answer!
Good luck
What a refreshing balanced response …sadly lacking here these days!
You are dead right there is no easy answer.
I was modular, and at the time (two years ago) I wished that I had had the money to go integrated.
However I think modular is probably the way to go in view of the current employment situation. HOWEVER, that will not be the case for all integrated students…right place right time still has a lot to do with things.
Right now I am happy that I went down the modular route and chose to take some time out to instruct, at least I am flying and building some hours, all be it for buttons.
‘Perhaps’ for the moment modular ‘might’ be the best option for the reasons stated in the other posts.
Both routes are right... is the indecisive answer!
Good luck
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Alfa,
In a nutshell, integrated courses train you up from zero hours to CPL/IR fATPL level at one training establishment (or partnerships) and it takes a little over a year, start to finish, full time. However it is generally the more expensive option, but it is said that airlines look more favourably on it (hence Apple's question).
Modular is as the name implies. You can complete different modules (ie. ATPL theory module, CPL flight test module, IR module) at different training establishments, in your own time (obviously complying with the CAA/JAR completion deadlines) and it allows people to hold down a full time job at the same time (social life ? what's that then ?). You will need a PPL to start the modular route (hence quite handy for us guys already with some experience) and generally 150 hours to undertake the CPL stage.
As is evident, there are pros and cons to both systems, the likes of which as already stated, will be debated ad-infinitum, but it is generally hoped that both will be recognised by airlines "reasonably" equitably in the future. Just a question of time I hope. We'll see.
Hope that helps.
In a nutshell, integrated courses train you up from zero hours to CPL/IR fATPL level at one training establishment (or partnerships) and it takes a little over a year, start to finish, full time. However it is generally the more expensive option, but it is said that airlines look more favourably on it (hence Apple's question).
Modular is as the name implies. You can complete different modules (ie. ATPL theory module, CPL flight test module, IR module) at different training establishments, in your own time (obviously complying with the CAA/JAR completion deadlines) and it allows people to hold down a full time job at the same time (social life ? what's that then ?). You will need a PPL to start the modular route (hence quite handy for us guys already with some experience) and generally 150 hours to undertake the CPL stage.
As is evident, there are pros and cons to both systems, the likes of which as already stated, will be debated ad-infinitum, but it is generally hoped that both will be recognised by airlines "reasonably" equitably in the future. Just a question of time I hope. We'll see.
Hope that helps.
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Clear Prop!!!
It's true isn't it....there really is no answer. I firmly believe it depends on so many things. Not least the right frame of mind.
To prove a point, I am still flying for (and intend to stay flying for) my current employer. I was however offered a chance to go for an interview with a REALLY well known UK jet operator this week at short notice and absolutely bombed out of the interview!! There was no way they would employ me.....and I think that is because I turned up without the POSITIVE MENTAL ATTITUDE I spoke of a couple of days ago!! The fact is I had not applied for a job recently with them and it came out of the blue........so, another thing to remember guys, always be prepared!! I wasn't . Luckily I still have a very good flying job to go to, so I am not bothered ( and realistically I would have never left my firm voluntarily). But the fact is......keep current and KEEP POSITIVE!!
You never know when the phone will ring.
Good Luck to you all.
It's true isn't it....there really is no answer. I firmly believe it depends on so many things. Not least the right frame of mind.
To prove a point, I am still flying for (and intend to stay flying for) my current employer. I was however offered a chance to go for an interview with a REALLY well known UK jet operator this week at short notice and absolutely bombed out of the interview!! There was no way they would employ me.....and I think that is because I turned up without the POSITIVE MENTAL ATTITUDE I spoke of a couple of days ago!! The fact is I had not applied for a job recently with them and it came out of the blue........so, another thing to remember guys, always be prepared!! I wasn't . Luckily I still have a very good flying job to go to, so I am not bothered ( and realistically I would have never left my firm voluntarily). But the fact is......keep current and KEEP POSITIVE!!
You never know when the phone will ring.
Good Luck to you all.
