Why are there no Tomahawks in Florida?
The Oracle
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Wee Weasley Welshman,
In response to "And just because the US mass manufactured it more DOES NOT meen it was best..."
I was not debating the merits of either aircraft. I was just commenting that Cessna produced:
21,404 C-150
734 C-150 Aerobat
6,629 C-152
314 C-152 Aerobat
totaling 29,081 aircraft vs 2,484 Tomahawks. That is a ratio of greater than 20 to 1. Therefore it makes sence that you will see many more schools with C-150/152's vs. Tomahawks.
Personally, I learned to fly in the PA-28-161 and it is my prefered aircraft for teaching PPL's. I have always been a low wing man. (Please, I do not want to debate the merits of diffrent aircraft.)
Happy Flying,
Capt Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
In response to "And just because the US mass manufactured it more DOES NOT meen it was best..."
I was not debating the merits of either aircraft. I was just commenting that Cessna produced:
21,404 C-150
734 C-150 Aerobat
6,629 C-152
314 C-152 Aerobat
totaling 29,081 aircraft vs 2,484 Tomahawks. That is a ratio of greater than 20 to 1. Therefore it makes sence that you will see many more schools with C-150/152's vs. Tomahawks.
Personally, I learned to fly in the PA-28-161 and it is my prefered aircraft for teaching PPL's. I have always been a low wing man. (Please, I do not want to debate the merits of diffrent aircraft.)
Happy Flying,
Capt Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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I think it is very much dependant on what you learned on -
I learned on the C-152 and found it great. No complaints whatsoever. Stable, easy to handle and not always easy to land during those first few lessons as with any aeroplane!!!! Now, however I would always recommend this aircraft for a primary trainer having spent 100's of hours teaching in it!
Then there are those that learned on the Tomahawk - however for the relatively few made compared to the Cessna counterpart (had no idea about those numbers!!!) I have heard a great deal more negatives for the PA38 than I do 152's.
Red Hot Amateur -
If it helps, I have taught many to transfer to 152 from the Tomahawk and it barely takes a couple of hours to transfer from one to the another. Pilot experience is always increased by flying different types therefore you should never become stuck on one type in my opinion. However, there are good times and bad times to transfer so I would speak to your Instructor.
I learned on the C-152 and found it great. No complaints whatsoever. Stable, easy to handle and not always easy to land during those first few lessons as with any aeroplane!!!! Now, however I would always recommend this aircraft for a primary trainer having spent 100's of hours teaching in it!
Then there are those that learned on the Tomahawk - however for the relatively few made compared to the Cessna counterpart (had no idea about those numbers!!!) I have heard a great deal more negatives for the PA38 than I do 152's.
Red Hot Amateur -
If it helps, I have taught many to transfer to 152 from the Tomahawk and it barely takes a couple of hours to transfer from one to the another. Pilot experience is always increased by flying different types therefore you should never become stuck on one type in my opinion. However, there are good times and bad times to transfer so I would speak to your Instructor.
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The reason people say the Tomahawk is a dangerous aircraft with a bad reputation is because they are scared of stalling and spinning, and we all know that the Tomahawk does spin and stall correctly requiring the pilot to carry out the correct recovery actions unlike the C152 recovery action of just letting go of the controls.
If you want to learn the correct recovery fly the tomahawk its a eye opener and great fun, I have spun them many times and have no fear at all.
Total tail breaks of the PA38 in this country, a BIG "0"
If you want to learn the correct recovery fly the tomahawk its a eye opener and great fun, I have spun them many times and have no fear at all.
Total tail breaks of the PA38 in this country, a BIG "0"
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"I was not debating the merits of either aircraft. I was just commenting that Cessna produced:
21,404 C-150
734 C-150 Aerobat
6,629 C-152
314 C-152 Aerobat
totaling 29,081 aircraft vs 2,484 Tomahawks. That is a ratio of greater than 20 to 1."
er....could you just run the math by me one more time sir?
21,404 C-150
734 C-150 Aerobat
6,629 C-152
314 C-152 Aerobat
totaling 29,081 aircraft vs 2,484 Tomahawks. That is a ratio of greater than 20 to 1."
er....could you just run the math by me one more time sir?
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I too have spent hundreds of hours intructing on Tomahawks; a wonderful aeroplane in many respects. However it isn't found in the US these days because of early design problems with respect to spin recovery. US litigation fever following several fatal crashes caused this particular aircraft to cease production after a relatively short run - 3 years in fact.
It is more fidgety than a 150/PA28 which makes it a little more bothersome in certain situations, but it offers much improved visibility and greatly increased cabin space over the 150. Try it, you won't find any real difficulty in swapping types. Besides, don't learn to fly only ONE type, appreciate that all aeroplanes obey the same rules. It's good experience to learn the handling characteristics of different aircraft.
As for Naples Air Centre's comment with respect to cabin ventilation, I found the panel mounted fresh air vents far superior to the PA28 and just as good as the C150.
It is more fidgety than a 150/PA28 which makes it a little more bothersome in certain situations, but it offers much improved visibility and greatly increased cabin space over the 150. Try it, you won't find any real difficulty in swapping types. Besides, don't learn to fly only ONE type, appreciate that all aeroplanes obey the same rules. It's good experience to learn the handling characteristics of different aircraft.
As for Naples Air Centre's comment with respect to cabin ventilation, I found the panel mounted fresh air vents far superior to the PA28 and just as good as the C150.
The Oracle
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Unwell_Raptor,
You got me. I meant 10 to 1.
Ivan Ivanovich,
The amount of plexy in the cabin heats up the cabin more than the C-152 in a strong Sun.
Tomahawk
C-152
There is another note about the C-152 and the PA-38. The C-152 has 14 AD's with 3 of them being Recurring AD's and the PA-38 has 21 AD's with 8 of them being Recurring AD's.
Happy Tomahawking,
Capt Richard J. Gentil, Pres
Naples Air Center, Inc.
You got me. I meant 10 to 1.
Ivan Ivanovich,
The amount of plexy in the cabin heats up the cabin more than the C-152 in a strong Sun.
Tomahawk
C-152
There is another note about the C-152 and the PA-38. The C-152 has 14 AD's with 3 of them being Recurring AD's and the PA-38 has 21 AD's with 8 of them being Recurring AD's.
Happy Tomahawking,
Capt Richard J. Gentil, Pres
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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Ahh, as above why not just switch to the C152. It will take you all of .5
Or the Katana- popular in Canada, not sure how popular in Florida. Looks pretty close to a Tomahawk to me!
Or the Katana- popular in Canada, not sure how popular in Florida. Looks pretty close to a Tomahawk to me!
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Looking back ten years i can remember going to florida to box up three PA38,s to bring back to the UK ,the guy i was working for did a lot more so much so that the hangar at wycombe looked like a tomahawk factory.
The fact is that i think that europe has had a large number of the fleet ,the guy from naples air center thinks that the PA38 is not good in a hot enviroment so it would seem logical that the birds would migrate to a cooler enviroment ,i just wonder if you would find more PA 38,s in the northern USA.
The fact is that i think that europe has had a large number of the fleet ,the guy from naples air center thinks that the PA38 is not good in a hot enviroment so it would seem logical that the birds would migrate to a cooler enviroment ,i just wonder if you would find more PA 38,s in the northern USA.
A & C - was that working for T.B. by any chance?
If so then I have flown your little projects.
WWW
If so then I have flown your little projects.
WWW
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I am rather pleased to have found pprune to while away my time off.
Cessna 150 / 152 versus the Tomahawk is no contest. The Tomahawk is a better trainer.
I sometimes wonder about anyone who uses Capt. before his/ her name in a public forum...Hmmmm is that supposed to fool the newbies that the title Captain means something?
............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Cessna 150 / 152 versus the Tomahawk is no contest. The Tomahawk is a better trainer.
I sometimes wonder about anyone who uses Capt. before his/ her name in a public forum...Hmmmm is that supposed to fool the newbies that the title Captain means something?
............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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This tomahawk/traumahawk thing has been going on for some time now. There is a significant body of opinion that says the PA38 did not pass the FAA certification requirements for spin recovery.
Don't believe me? For starters, go to www.google.com and search for 'tomahawk ntsb stall'. Keep entering key words until you get bored senseless.
You wil find there is a lot of worrying stuff out there, some from respectable sources.
I've never flown a PA38 in the US because I've never found anywhere which rents one. Why is this? Why is there no similar discussion about the stall/spin characteristics of other popular trainers? I've never heard anybody say the warrior or C152 has weird snap characteristics in the stall.
Sure, the PA38 may be a wonderful trainer like some here claim, maybe because it isn't docile like some others. The Piper Super Cub is also a bit frisky in the power on stall (compared to a warrior or C152) but nobody ever says it is hard to recover from an unintentional spin. Its a shame people don't learn to fly in the super cub, but then it's not easy so you need more hours. That brings economics into the picture - not easy when flying schools are promoting PPL packages for a certain cost.
If you want to learn how to fly in a 'real' plane, fly something like the Super Cub. That is a superb plane, you may never want to fly anything else.
If you want to learn how to fly a 'pussy' plane then learn how to fly in a warrior/C152.
I wonder why anybody would want to learn how to fly in the PA38 when it has such a bad reputation, even if its unwarranted. When you are a primary student, you spend half your time convincing yourself that you are not going to suffer airframe failure, engine failure, spin because you add rudder, or die because you hit something which appears from nowhere. Who needs this distraction when you are still confused about silly things like how the hell do wings provide lift.
Life is a lot easier for a primary student without the worry (however false) that you will enter an unrecoverable spin when you perform slow flight! I'd look for something different. Super Cub is my choice of trainer for the masses, and hour building too. Given the alternatives, a Tomahawk is not something I'd advise a student or low time PPL to touch.
[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]
Don't believe me? For starters, go to www.google.com and search for 'tomahawk ntsb stall'. Keep entering key words until you get bored senseless.
You wil find there is a lot of worrying stuff out there, some from respectable sources.
I've never flown a PA38 in the US because I've never found anywhere which rents one. Why is this? Why is there no similar discussion about the stall/spin characteristics of other popular trainers? I've never heard anybody say the warrior or C152 has weird snap characteristics in the stall.
Sure, the PA38 may be a wonderful trainer like some here claim, maybe because it isn't docile like some others. The Piper Super Cub is also a bit frisky in the power on stall (compared to a warrior or C152) but nobody ever says it is hard to recover from an unintentional spin. Its a shame people don't learn to fly in the super cub, but then it's not easy so you need more hours. That brings economics into the picture - not easy when flying schools are promoting PPL packages for a certain cost.
If you want to learn how to fly in a 'real' plane, fly something like the Super Cub. That is a superb plane, you may never want to fly anything else.
If you want to learn how to fly a 'pussy' plane then learn how to fly in a warrior/C152.
I wonder why anybody would want to learn how to fly in the PA38 when it has such a bad reputation, even if its unwarranted. When you are a primary student, you spend half your time convincing yourself that you are not going to suffer airframe failure, engine failure, spin because you add rudder, or die because you hit something which appears from nowhere. Who needs this distraction when you are still confused about silly things like how the hell do wings provide lift.
Life is a lot easier for a primary student without the worry (however false) that you will enter an unrecoverable spin when you perform slow flight! I'd look for something different. Super Cub is my choice of trainer for the masses, and hour building too. Given the alternatives, a Tomahawk is not something I'd advise a student or low time PPL to touch.
[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]
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As someone who learned to fly using a Tomahawk as his mount, I can thoroughly recommend them.
If you are looking for a Tomahawk in Florida then I may know of a place.
Back in July 1999 I was over at Euroflight, Kissimmee Airport (near Walt Disney World) building hours in a PA28-161.
During the second week when I had got back from a trip somewhere the CFI (I forget his name now) came into the Crew Room and asked if anyone had time on a PA38 and if so how much. Like a fool I said yes and about 150 hours on type. He then asked if I could go up to New Smyrna Beach to pick up a Tomahawk with himself the next day, to which I agreed.
We had a lift up to New Smyrna Beach with two others on a C172 - I then knew the meaning of calculating your take-off distance - four up on a C172 (the fuel tanks weren't full) and we used most of the runway at Kissimmee.
We collected the two tomahawks and I was expecting the CFI to give me a quick checkout - but no he said okay off you go, if you'd like you can go somewhere before returning to Kissimmee.
After a weeks flying in the HOT Florida sunshine in a PA28, the PA38 was a different beast - the wings were rocking all the way back to Kissimmee (3pm).
Also that day the wind decided to pick up - with gusts up to 30kts (ish) about thirty degrees of the runway... and that was my first landing in a Tomahawk for about three months!
Checked one of the instructors out on the PA38 - his first landing was a greaser, argh!!! (The CFI and the Instructor said it was a lot better having someone on board who can fly the aircraft).
So Euroflight (now Orlando Flight Training - Cabair) may have two Tomahawks that you could hire - they are also CAA approved.
Just got back from California last week... been flying a PA28R-200 (Arrow 3) and I saw only 1 Tomahawk during my two weeks out there... it looked as if it was privately owned as well.
I'm off to see if the nosewheel steering has been fixed on the groups Beagle Pup now... (I've missed flying the Pup - its been four weeks now!).
If you are looking for a Tomahawk in Florida then I may know of a place.
Back in July 1999 I was over at Euroflight, Kissimmee Airport (near Walt Disney World) building hours in a PA28-161.
During the second week when I had got back from a trip somewhere the CFI (I forget his name now) came into the Crew Room and asked if anyone had time on a PA38 and if so how much. Like a fool I said yes and about 150 hours on type. He then asked if I could go up to New Smyrna Beach to pick up a Tomahawk with himself the next day, to which I agreed.
We had a lift up to New Smyrna Beach with two others on a C172 - I then knew the meaning of calculating your take-off distance - four up on a C172 (the fuel tanks weren't full) and we used most of the runway at Kissimmee.
We collected the two tomahawks and I was expecting the CFI to give me a quick checkout - but no he said okay off you go, if you'd like you can go somewhere before returning to Kissimmee.
After a weeks flying in the HOT Florida sunshine in a PA28, the PA38 was a different beast - the wings were rocking all the way back to Kissimmee (3pm).
Also that day the wind decided to pick up - with gusts up to 30kts (ish) about thirty degrees of the runway... and that was my first landing in a Tomahawk for about three months!
Checked one of the instructors out on the PA38 - his first landing was a greaser, argh!!! (The CFI and the Instructor said it was a lot better having someone on board who can fly the aircraft).
So Euroflight (now Orlando Flight Training - Cabair) may have two Tomahawks that you could hire - they are also CAA approved.
Just got back from California last week... been flying a PA28R-200 (Arrow 3) and I saw only 1 Tomahawk during my two weeks out there... it looked as if it was privately owned as well.
I'm off to see if the nosewheel steering has been fixed on the groups Beagle Pup now... (I've missed flying the Pup - its been four weeks now!).
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Hi Richard:
Yes I am, and now everyone here will know who wrote that snotty reference to using the term Captain.
Sometimes it just may be better not to make such comments, but oh hell I did and you smoked me out so I guess I had it coming for the comment.
As to the PBY yes they are a great old airplanes, it is almost unbeliavable that I can find so much flying just by having a background of having flown that airplane. I am heading over to Duxford at the end of the month to ferry the ex Greenpeace Cat to Lee on Solent. Also there is a Cat warbird restoration that I brought up to London from Johannesburg that I will be ferrying to the Eastern U.S.A. for the new owner when the weather over the North Atlantic gets flyable in the spring. ( The PBY does not have de icing.)
Anyhow you got me ,, and I deserved it.
By the way I do prefer the Tomahawk but then we all have our preferences.
Take care.
............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Yes I am, and now everyone here will know who wrote that snotty reference to using the term Captain.
Sometimes it just may be better not to make such comments, but oh hell I did and you smoked me out so I guess I had it coming for the comment.
As to the PBY yes they are a great old airplanes, it is almost unbeliavable that I can find so much flying just by having a background of having flown that airplane. I am heading over to Duxford at the end of the month to ferry the ex Greenpeace Cat to Lee on Solent. Also there is a Cat warbird restoration that I brought up to London from Johannesburg that I will be ferrying to the Eastern U.S.A. for the new owner when the weather over the North Atlantic gets flyable in the spring. ( The PBY does not have de icing.)
Anyhow you got me ,, and I deserved it.
By the way I do prefer the Tomahawk but then we all have our preferences.
Take care.
............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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slim-slag:
You are correct it would make for better pilots if they learned on a Super Cub.
However you are wrong about it taking longer due to it being harder to fly. There is no difference in the learning time frame between tail wheel and nose wheel airplanes.
............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
You are correct it would make for better pilots if they learned on a Super Cub.
However you are wrong about it taking longer due to it being harder to fly. There is no difference in the learning time frame between tail wheel and nose wheel airplanes.
............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
The Oracle
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Cat Driver,
I was not trying to smoke you out. With the at the end of the sentence, I figured you were just giving me a little ribbing.
I am glad it is you because I have a PBY question for you. When I was learning to fly back in the mid 80's there was a 4 engine PBY on the field. The inboard engines were a pair of Wrights (Round Engines) and the outboard were modern (looking like either lycoming or continental) but I could not get close enough to see what they were. The interior of the PBY was in a corporate layout.
I was wondering you know the history of the aircraft and what has happened to it?
Sincerely,
Richard
I was not trying to smoke you out. With the
at the end of the sentence, I figured you were just giving me a little ribbing.I am glad it is you because I have a PBY question for you. When I was learning to fly back in the mid 80's there was a 4 engine PBY on the field. The inboard engines were a pair of Wrights (Round Engines) and the outboard were modern (looking like either lycoming or continental) but I could not get close enough to see what they were. The interior of the PBY was in a corporate layout.
I was wondering you know the history of the aircraft and what has happened to it?
Sincerely,
Richard
The Oracle
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slim_slag,
For years my competition, Ambassador Airways, had a pair of Tomahawks for rent. I do not know if they still have them.
If someone really wants to fly a Tomahawk in the U.S. I suggest Mazzei Flying Service in Fresno, California.
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
For years my competition, Ambassador Airways, had a pair of Tomahawks for rent. I do not know if they still have them.
If someone really wants to fly a Tomahawk in the U.S. I suggest Mazzei Flying Service in Fresno, California.
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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Cat
However you are wrong about it taking longer due to it being harder to fly
You are correct of course. It's when you get the beast on the ground that the fun starts
But joking aside, don't you think it's going to take a few extra hours before you solo the student? The places I know who use the Super Cub as a primary trainer tell me that's where the difference is.
Then there is the extra time it takes to get anywhere when you are chugging along at 95mph.
Of course, in the good old days when everybody learned to fly in a cub, they were soloing people in half the time it takes now on your average spam-can
However you are wrong about it taking longer due to it being harder to fly
You are correct of course. It's when you get the beast on the ground that the fun starts
But joking aside, don't you think it's going to take a few extra hours before you solo the student? The places I know who use the Super Cub as a primary trainer tell me that's where the difference is.
Then there is the extra time it takes to get anywhere when you are chugging along at 95mph.
Of course, in the good old days when everybody learned to fly in a cub, they were soloing people in half the time it takes now on your average spam-can
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Hi: Capt. Richard Yes the airplane you are talking about was called the Bird Innovater it had two Lyc.io-540's outboard of the P&W engines. It is one of the few PBY 's that I never got the chance to fly although I would like to have.
It is now just S. of Portland Or. being converted back to a normal PBY. In fact I just had an e-mail from them a few days ago and they tell me they are progressing nicely, I will be training them when they get it flying. I used to fly the Super Cat that opens the movie Always about waterbombers.
Speaking of movies I just did the flying for a Miramax Movie called Below ( about a submarine in ww2 )it was filmed in England and will be released at the end of the year. If you like PBY's you will love the shots of the PBY in Below, the movie opens with the flying scenes.
There is a Super Cat at kississmee sp? and he also owns a Super DC3, another real neat airplane that I do training on. The guys name is Charlie Clements and the Cat is for Sale.
If you wish to look at it I have it for sale on my web site.... www.pbyflighttraining.com
Now you buy that and have your picture taken with it and you will really impress the girls. ............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.