Too old for training??
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Sydneyc
yeah, point taken, maybe it was just the way I read it that made it sound like the emphasis was on non-flying previous experience. You're right to look at it as part of what you can offer prospective employers and certainly any previous experience which fulfils the '3' qualities the airlines look for is a tick in the right box.
Good luck
PP
ps If you want a little inspiration for what can be achieved by us 30+ers my story was received quite favourably first time round. Click here http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimat...c&f=2&t=008009 to read all about it.
PP
[ 08 July 2001: Message edited by: Pilot Pete ]
yeah, point taken, maybe it was just the way I read it that made it sound like the emphasis was on non-flying previous experience. You're right to look at it as part of what you can offer prospective employers and certainly any previous experience which fulfils the '3' qualities the airlines look for is a tick in the right box.
Good luck
PP
ps If you want a little inspiration for what can be achieved by us 30+ers my story was received quite favourably first time round. Click here http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimat...c&f=2&t=008009 to read all about it.
PP
[ 08 July 2001: Message edited by: Pilot Pete ]
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I am 35 now and started to learn to fly at the grand old age of 33! I had prevously been in the RAF but not as a pilot. I had taken the tests and fallen down on my eyesight since I wear contacts. I was gutted at the time, but at 18 had all the time in the world.
I spent the next 15 years sitting down the back of Nimrods and AWACs aircraft being thrown around the sky by people doing MY job!!
By the time 1999 arrived I had a mortgage, a little girl, and a very understanding wife who had realised that I would eventualy give up the safe life on a huge gamble of becoming a pilot.
Its great, that check rolling in every month and the bills getting paid, not a worry in the world. October 1999 all that changed, my bank account started to hemorage at the seams as over the next 18 months 50K was sucked away on an ab-initio course at Oxford. I lived on campus since I didnt think that I could do the course and all that it involved and have a family life. I was right!
I was not prepared for the sheer volume of work that was required, a pile of books nearly as tall as me and having to stuff 75% of it into my tiny brain over a period of about 8 months. I set to it and spent about 4-5 hours a night studying and eventualy it all paid off with a pass in all the ATPLs.
Only the flying to do now!! Ho Ho!Hour after hour spent sitting in a PA28 staring at little needles flicking this way and that. I knew they were telling me something, but to start with, what? Each test brought the illusive license that bit closer but each time you worried if the next test would be the grand hurdle. A few guys did struggle but with persiverance eventually passed as did I.
On the 16 January this year I was given my 50K piece of paper, saying I had passed the IR.
I thought that was the hard bit over and done with, back to having a family and a pay check again!How wrong was I!
I compiled a list off all the UK companies that I could find and rang every one of them to ensure that the CV went to the right person (There is a link in the archive to the list if you would like it). 57 CVs later and all I had to show was a pile of PFO's, and only those from the airlines that could be bothered to reply, come back with 1000+ hours was the best they could do. Still I was at home for a change and earning, £52 a week dole!!
Its not all been a downer though since I was lucky enough to be called for an interview arranged through a contact at Oxford for a job flying 737's. To cut the story short I got the job and started to fly the beast a little over a month ago.
Would I do it again? You bet!
Is it easy? NO!!!!
Whats the hardest bit? Being away from the family ALL the time and trying getting a job at the end. There are lots of low hour guys looking for a break and they deserve it after all the hard work. I was VERY VERY lucky.
Would I recommend it? Just see the grin on my face as I take control release the brakes and open the throttles.
Are you too old? I dont think so, but you do realy have to commit yourself and have a goal to work towards.
The very best of luck to you, it can be done despite what other people tell you.
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: batty ]
I spent the next 15 years sitting down the back of Nimrods and AWACs aircraft being thrown around the sky by people doing MY job!!
By the time 1999 arrived I had a mortgage, a little girl, and a very understanding wife who had realised that I would eventualy give up the safe life on a huge gamble of becoming a pilot.
Its great, that check rolling in every month and the bills getting paid, not a worry in the world. October 1999 all that changed, my bank account started to hemorage at the seams as over the next 18 months 50K was sucked away on an ab-initio course at Oxford. I lived on campus since I didnt think that I could do the course and all that it involved and have a family life. I was right!
I was not prepared for the sheer volume of work that was required, a pile of books nearly as tall as me and having to stuff 75% of it into my tiny brain over a period of about 8 months. I set to it and spent about 4-5 hours a night studying and eventualy it all paid off with a pass in all the ATPLs.
Only the flying to do now!! Ho Ho!Hour after hour spent sitting in a PA28 staring at little needles flicking this way and that. I knew they were telling me something, but to start with, what? Each test brought the illusive license that bit closer but each time you worried if the next test would be the grand hurdle. A few guys did struggle but with persiverance eventually passed as did I.
On the 16 January this year I was given my 50K piece of paper, saying I had passed the IR.
I thought that was the hard bit over and done with, back to having a family and a pay check again!How wrong was I!
I compiled a list off all the UK companies that I could find and rang every one of them to ensure that the CV went to the right person (There is a link in the archive to the list if you would like it). 57 CVs later and all I had to show was a pile of PFO's, and only those from the airlines that could be bothered to reply, come back with 1000+ hours was the best they could do. Still I was at home for a change and earning, £52 a week dole!!
Its not all been a downer though since I was lucky enough to be called for an interview arranged through a contact at Oxford for a job flying 737's. To cut the story short I got the job and started to fly the beast a little over a month ago.
Would I do it again? You bet!
Is it easy? NO!!!!
Whats the hardest bit? Being away from the family ALL the time and trying getting a job at the end. There are lots of low hour guys looking for a break and they deserve it after all the hard work. I was VERY VERY lucky.
Would I recommend it? Just see the grin on my face as I take control release the brakes and open the throttles.
Are you too old? I dont think so, but you do realy have to commit yourself and have a goal to work towards.
The very best of luck to you, it can be done despite what other people tell you.
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: batty ]
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Aussie
Thanks for your message. When I originally posted mine I wanted to canvas opinion from other wannabes and professional pilots alike. I have done that now and am satisfied that the journey ahead, while hard, will not necessarily be fruitless. You and I can look at the various experiences described herein and be heartened by them.
I'm now fully committed and have embarked on the journey. If you decide this is definitely for you then I wish you all the luck in the world.
Cheers
Nigel
Thanks for your message. When I originally posted mine I wanted to canvas opinion from other wannabes and professional pilots alike. I have done that now and am satisfied that the journey ahead, while hard, will not necessarily be fruitless. You and I can look at the various experiences described herein and be heartened by them.
I'm now fully committed and have embarked on the journey. If you decide this is definitely for you then I wish you all the luck in the world.
Cheers
Nigel
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There are some great stories, and some excellent points have been made, on this thread. I'd like to pick up on one aspect which caused a little bit of discussion earlier, and is very relevant to you 'older' chaps who've a successful career in another field behind you.
Your experience is important, and potentially very valuable, in your search for a job, in a number of ways. Firstly, unless you've been very lucky or you were in a totally unchallenging environment, you'll have experienced many occasions where you've had to fight your own corner to get something done. You'll fall back on that experience many, many times in your near future...!! Secondly, when you finally come to the interview for a major airline, for whom aircrew are more than just drivers/airframe, your experience will most certainly give you an advantage over someone with equal flight hours but less life hours. BA is the prime example of an employer that sees its pilots as management in aeroplanes, but there are others.
Sure, it's true that the small operators just want someone to pole their punters around the skies, and they don't care if you have a Nobel Prize in astrophysics as long as you turn up on time, every time. But I assume that's not where you want to end up? Experience is never wasted.....
Your experience is important, and potentially very valuable, in your search for a job, in a number of ways. Firstly, unless you've been very lucky or you were in a totally unchallenging environment, you'll have experienced many occasions where you've had to fight your own corner to get something done. You'll fall back on that experience many, many times in your near future...!! Secondly, when you finally come to the interview for a major airline, for whom aircrew are more than just drivers/airframe, your experience will most certainly give you an advantage over someone with equal flight hours but less life hours. BA is the prime example of an employer that sees its pilots as management in aeroplanes, but there are others.
Sure, it's true that the small operators just want someone to pole their punters around the skies, and they don't care if you have a Nobel Prize in astrophysics as long as you turn up on time, every time. But I assume that's not where you want to end up? Experience is never wasted.....
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Thanks for that Scroggs, you're a STAR.
Your wise words should give us all hope.
I thank all those that replied to my original message. I'm very satisfied now and looking forward to just getting on with it.
But first... I'm off to book that Class 1 medical.
Best wishes and kind regards everyone
Nigel
Your wise words should give us all hope.
I thank all those that replied to my original message. I'm very satisfied now and looking forward to just getting on with it.
But first... I'm off to book that Class 1 medical.
Best wishes and kind regards everyone
Nigel
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If it is any help I was 30 when my PPl was issued , with no intentions of flying professionally . Got made redundant 8 years ago and ended up doing a BCPL and AFI rating just for the hell of it . 3000 hrs later i'm flying for an air taxi company . Even with 3000+ hrs and an ATPL I still haven't had an interview with airline big or small , guess it must be my aftershave . I firmly believe that it doesn't matter how many hours you have and what ratings you hold if your C.V. is at the top of the pile when they need a pilot then you are in with a chance . Good luck ....
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I think you need to have that assurance from time to time from others to 'keep the faith'.
For instance, I started getting in to this ATP Academy scheme document last night, thinking it would be a good idea, then BANG ! on the top of page 4 "Pilots under 34 or under ...." S**T. You just start thinking about your age again (is 34 the secret cut off age??) etc.....
For instance, I started getting in to this ATP Academy scheme document last night, thinking it would be a good idea, then BANG ! on the top of page 4 "Pilots under 34 or under ...." S**T. You just start thinking about your age again (is 34 the secret cut off age??) etc.....
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Stuff the age,
Think supply and demand. Remember, it was not that long ago the cutoff was 28.
Also, remember that maturity in life you only gain with age, and some operators look for that.
Just because ATP choose 34, well so what? Take a look at it in 12 months time, and I'll put money on it, that it'll be diferent.
Age - think of it opening other doors that are not open to the youger ones. Same apply in reverse.
Keep going. I'm over 40 and still recon I'm in with a chance.
PS
Think supply and demand. Remember, it was not that long ago the cutoff was 28.
Also, remember that maturity in life you only gain with age, and some operators look for that.
Just because ATP choose 34, well so what? Take a look at it in 12 months time, and I'll put money on it, that it'll be diferent.
Age - think of it opening other doors that are not open to the youger ones. Same apply in reverse.
Keep going. I'm over 40 and still recon I'm in with a chance.
PS
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I'd just like to throw in another nugget that you might like to consider, mainly in response to the last post.
The maximum age for pilot recruiting is directly proportional to the difficulty in obtaining qualified pilots. In times of economic plenty, there aren't enough pilots to go round and so maximum ages rise. In times of economic hardship, that maximum age will reduce (and maybe other qualification hoops can be introduced to filter out all but the best at the earliest stage).
Right now there is a shortage of highly-qualified, type-rated pilots. That filters down the food chain, so that it is relatively easy to get a job at the moment. Note that I say 'relatively easy'. There are still many more Wannabes than suitable jobs, but the age window is as wide open as it's ever been at the moment. There will still be many, many disappointments.
If you read the business pages of your newspapers, and the news pages of Flight (try starting at the front for a change!), you will be beginning to get the idea that all is not as wonderful as it might be on the economic front, and that there is no sign yet of any improvement. As the downturn continues, companies will rein in their transport and air-freight spending, which will inevitably impact the airlines and their expansion plans. This, of course, will slow down the jobs market and will lead to more restrictive specs being placed on pilot applicants. Age may well be one of the factors that is tightened up - most training organisations recognise that it is easier to teach younger people (ie the failure rate is lower). That's why the RAF, RN and BA are very restrictive on age - they can afford to be.
It's not all doom and gloom; this is still a long way from being a recession. But it is a factor you should bear in mind.
The maximum age for pilot recruiting is directly proportional to the difficulty in obtaining qualified pilots. In times of economic plenty, there aren't enough pilots to go round and so maximum ages rise. In times of economic hardship, that maximum age will reduce (and maybe other qualification hoops can be introduced to filter out all but the best at the earliest stage).
Right now there is a shortage of highly-qualified, type-rated pilots. That filters down the food chain, so that it is relatively easy to get a job at the moment. Note that I say 'relatively easy'. There are still many more Wannabes than suitable jobs, but the age window is as wide open as it's ever been at the moment. There will still be many, many disappointments.
If you read the business pages of your newspapers, and the news pages of Flight (try starting at the front for a change!), you will be beginning to get the idea that all is not as wonderful as it might be on the economic front, and that there is no sign yet of any improvement. As the downturn continues, companies will rein in their transport and air-freight spending, which will inevitably impact the airlines and their expansion plans. This, of course, will slow down the jobs market and will lead to more restrictive specs being placed on pilot applicants. Age may well be one of the factors that is tightened up - most training organisations recognise that it is easier to teach younger people (ie the failure rate is lower). That's why the RAF, RN and BA are very restrictive on age - they can afford to be.
It's not all doom and gloom; this is still a long way from being a recession. But it is a factor you should bear in mind.
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scrogs,
I understand fully where you are comming from and agree with you, but I'd just like to make the point that a prediction is just that, or someones view on the future etc.
Sure, the popular belief is that we are heading for a recession, but to balabnce the argument, there is another opinion that recons that air travel will double in the next 10 years. Now I know which one I would like to subscribe to, but I'm convinced otherwise.
Now, if I could predict the future, rest assured I would not be reading this forum, or any other, or looking to fly for a living etc etc etc.
Regards
PS
I understand fully where you are comming from and agree with you, but I'd just like to make the point that a prediction is just that, or someones view on the future etc.
Sure, the popular belief is that we are heading for a recession, but to balabnce the argument, there is another opinion that recons that air travel will double in the next 10 years. Now I know which one I would like to subscribe to, but I'm convinced otherwise.
Now, if I could predict the future, rest assured I would not be reading this forum, or any other, or looking to fly for a living etc etc etc.
Regards
PS
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PS,
yes, predictions are a difficult science! While I'd like to believe those that say air travel will double every 10 years (or whatever), I can't help feeling that they're the same folks who 'predicted' that internet and tech stocks would go on rising! I think that the reality is somewhat less blindly optimistic. That's far from doom and gloom, but even if all was well economically, no-one's building the infrastructure to support this expansion. Our own government, in initiating the latest aviation review, suggested that the question was not 'how we enable aviation expansion', but 'whether we should accept any expansion at all'. Makes one think, eh?
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]
yes, predictions are a difficult science! While I'd like to believe those that say air travel will double every 10 years (or whatever), I can't help feeling that they're the same folks who 'predicted' that internet and tech stocks would go on rising! I think that the reality is somewhat less blindly optimistic. That's far from doom and gloom, but even if all was well economically, no-one's building the infrastructure to support this expansion. Our own government, in initiating the latest aviation review, suggested that the question was not 'how we enable aviation expansion', but 'whether we should accept any expansion at all'. Makes one think, eh?
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]
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I may be able to share some personal experience here. I started a CAP509 course at 36, and was fully supported by my wife who has been a star. I was very fortunate and got a job straight away for which I am exceedingly grateful. I am now nearly 42 and have just become a Line Training Captain on a regional turboprop. I have also just been offered a job flying A320s and A321s which I have accepted, and I start in September. I am not saying this to boast in any way but to show you that if you are good and dedicated then age is simply not an issue.
Our company actively seeks out FOs in their 40s because they think they might stay! I love my job and still have to pinch myself that I have the opportunity to do what I love doing. Some of the posts on this thread are simply wrong. There are now many FOs seeking their first job who are late starters. As I now train others, it is a fascinating insight into the talents of the various people who we recruit. In addition to a small amount (and that's all you need) of talent, there are 3 qualities required to succeed - dedication, dedication and dedication!
I am nothing special and I have had a lot of knocks along the way. I have come home from bad days and just determined to learn from the experience and get back on the saddle the next day. To all those people who say it cannot be done, I say it can. As the advert says, 'just do it!'
Our company actively seeks out FOs in their 40s because they think they might stay! I love my job and still have to pinch myself that I have the opportunity to do what I love doing. Some of the posts on this thread are simply wrong. There are now many FOs seeking their first job who are late starters. As I now train others, it is a fascinating insight into the talents of the various people who we recruit. In addition to a small amount (and that's all you need) of talent, there are 3 qualities required to succeed - dedication, dedication and dedication!
I am nothing special and I have had a lot of knocks along the way. I have come home from bad days and just determined to learn from the experience and get back on the saddle the next day. To all those people who say it cannot be done, I say it can. As the advert says, 'just do it!'
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Norman Stanley,
Good to read your post. Accurate, informed and realistic. It seems these boards abound with those looking for blanket assurances or guarantees. This is strange, as such guarantees do not exist anywhere else in business or professional life! Your points are both realistic and encouraging - thanks
Good to read your post. Accurate, informed and realistic. It seems these boards abound with those looking for blanket assurances or guarantees. This is strange, as such guarantees do not exist anywhere else in business or professional life! Your points are both realistic and encouraging - thanks
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A couple of people have e-mailed me wanting to know which company I work for and also if others would look at them. I have obviously taken an interest in this sort of thing and the following companies have all taken older people (35-45) for their first job:
ScotAirways (Dornier 328 - ultra-modern turboprop)
Channel Express (F27 very old turboprop)
Emerald Airways (HS 748 - very old turboprop)
City Flyer Express (ATRs - reasonably modern turboprop)
British European (Dash 8s - reasonably modern turboprop)
Like all jobs, there is a lot of competition. The more hours you have (particularly multi-engine hours), the greater your chances. Like I said before, though, if you have a modicum of ability and loads of determination then you are in with a shout. Do not worry about your age - for many people it is simply not a factor.
All the best to one and all in their search.
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Norman Stanley Fletcher ]
ScotAirways (Dornier 328 - ultra-modern turboprop)
Channel Express (F27 very old turboprop)
Emerald Airways (HS 748 - very old turboprop)
City Flyer Express (ATRs - reasonably modern turboprop)
British European (Dash 8s - reasonably modern turboprop)
Like all jobs, there is a lot of competition. The more hours you have (particularly multi-engine hours), the greater your chances. Like I said before, though, if you have a modicum of ability and loads of determination then you are in with a shout. Do not worry about your age - for many people it is simply not a factor.
All the best to one and all in their search.
[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Norman Stanley Fletcher ]
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Matey!
If you're looking for folk to talk you out of it, you couldn't have come to a worst place! get on with it and stop yer feckin procrasternashing! (yeah, and good luck to yer also)
If you're looking for folk to talk you out of it, you couldn't have come to a worst place! get on with it and stop yer feckin procrasternashing! (yeah, and good luck to yer also)