Training and a job!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 283
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From: somewhere hot and sticky
Training and a job!
I'm a kiwi with 120 odd hours and one year to go before I finish my degree in civil engineering (want a flying career!).
My question is this: Am I better to train to CPL/MEIR in NZ and then convert it to JAA (I understand very costly) or move to the UK when I have my degree, and work, save and fly for licences there?
What exactly is modular, integrated and CAP509? What are the costs of each of them? How would one go from 120hr PPL to CPL/IR (possibly instructor rating) - what's it realistically gonna set me back ?
Also, what's the chance of getting an instructing job fresh out of flight school in the UK? What are the prospects of hours and pay like?
I realise that's a lot to ask, but I would appreciate any advice anyone can give on any of it!
Cheers,
Dupre.
My question is this: Am I better to train to CPL/MEIR in NZ and then convert it to JAA (I understand very costly) or move to the UK when I have my degree, and work, save and fly for licences there?
What exactly is modular, integrated and CAP509? What are the costs of each of them? How would one go from 120hr PPL to CPL/IR (possibly instructor rating) - what's it realistically gonna set me back ?
Also, what's the chance of getting an instructing job fresh out of flight school in the UK? What are the prospects of hours and pay like?
I realise that's a lot to ask, but I would appreciate any advice anyone can give on any of it!
Cheers,
Dupre.
I say there boy
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere
Hi There Dupre,
Firstly, welcome to the minefield layed in shifting sands that is the JAA. I take it that you already have or can easily get work rights here (not uncommon in your part of the world!) I'll have a go at answering your questions...
The cheapest route to a JAA licence in the UK at the moment will be to get a full NZ ATPL and at least 500 hours on a type which either the JAA or NZ requires to be multi-crew. This makes conversion a piece of cake (relatively).
Unfortunately for many people this is not a viable option.
The second cheapest is to get an NZ CPL/ME but no IR, then come to the UK to convert and do your IR. You'll be able to work, save, do the theory exams by distance learning (allow one year), before stealing or borrowing enough money for the conversion.
Now for the rest of your questions...
Modular is getting the licence by doing a PPL, then hour building, then doing the theory exams, then doing the CPL, then the IR... sometimes known as 'self-improving' or 'self-abusing'... the cheapest route to a licence. From scratch you can do it for upwards of £30,000 - if you already have your NZ CPL/ME in your back pocket you are looking at £22,000+.
Integrated involves going from zero hours to a frozen ATPL in 15 months full-time and costs upwards of £50,000. This course used to be called CAP509 under the old pre-JAA system and the name still lingers on.
Instructors ratings cost about £6,000 on top of this. Now, on the pay and conditions of an instructor, I'm not really qualified to comment on this (cos I'm not one), however you're looking at long hours in summer with a real breadline wage (especially if you're servicing a large training debt). £6,000 - £10,000 a year with 12 hours attendance x 5 days a week in summer seems to be the thing (any instructors out there care to comment?) There don't seem to be too many problems getting hired as an instructor at the mo, but for a new instructor still with his/her solo restriction it definitely depends on who you know and where you are based.
Try:
http://www.jaa.nl http://www.caa.co.uk
for the word from the horse's mouth.
Hope this helps,
cheers!
foggy
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: foghorn ]
Firstly, welcome to the minefield layed in shifting sands that is the JAA. I take it that you already have or can easily get work rights here (not uncommon in your part of the world!) I'll have a go at answering your questions...
The cheapest route to a JAA licence in the UK at the moment will be to get a full NZ ATPL and at least 500 hours on a type which either the JAA or NZ requires to be multi-crew. This makes conversion a piece of cake (relatively).
Unfortunately for many people this is not a viable option.
The second cheapest is to get an NZ CPL/ME but no IR, then come to the UK to convert and do your IR. You'll be able to work, save, do the theory exams by distance learning (allow one year), before stealing or borrowing enough money for the conversion.
Now for the rest of your questions...
Modular is getting the licence by doing a PPL, then hour building, then doing the theory exams, then doing the CPL, then the IR... sometimes known as 'self-improving' or 'self-abusing'... the cheapest route to a licence. From scratch you can do it for upwards of £30,000 - if you already have your NZ CPL/ME in your back pocket you are looking at £22,000+.
Integrated involves going from zero hours to a frozen ATPL in 15 months full-time and costs upwards of £50,000. This course used to be called CAP509 under the old pre-JAA system and the name still lingers on.
Instructors ratings cost about £6,000 on top of this. Now, on the pay and conditions of an instructor, I'm not really qualified to comment on this (cos I'm not one), however you're looking at long hours in summer with a real breadline wage (especially if you're servicing a large training debt). £6,000 - £10,000 a year with 12 hours attendance x 5 days a week in summer seems to be the thing (any instructors out there care to comment?) There don't seem to be too many problems getting hired as an instructor at the mo, but for a new instructor still with his/her solo restriction it definitely depends on who you know and where you are based.
Try:
http://www.jaa.nl http://www.caa.co.uk
for the word from the horse's mouth.
Hope this helps,
cheers!
foggy
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: foghorn ]
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 283
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From: somewhere hot and sticky
Thanks foggy, very insightful.
You say a saving of GBP8k for having an NZ CPL/ME - what would the cost to CPL/MEIR be from my current position? (PPL, 120hrs). It would cost me in the region of GBP9k to get an NZ CPL/ME from where I am - so surely it's cheaper to go to the UK without any more flying?
Also, what's the chance of being employed on a twin straight out of flight school - having the right attitude but probably not knowing many of the right people? In NZ you really need 1000hr on singles before a twin operator will look at you. So if I didn't do the MEIR, can anyone give an approx cost of converting to just a CPL/instructor?
Thanks again,
Dupre.
You say a saving of GBP8k for having an NZ CPL/ME - what would the cost to CPL/MEIR be from my current position? (PPL, 120hrs). It would cost me in the region of GBP9k to get an NZ CPL/ME from where I am - so surely it's cheaper to go to the UK without any more flying?
Also, what's the chance of being employed on a twin straight out of flight school - having the right attitude but probably not knowing many of the right people? In NZ you really need 1000hr on singles before a twin operator will look at you. So if I didn't do the MEIR, can anyone give an approx cost of converting to just a CPL/instructor?
Thanks again,
Dupre.
I say there boy
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere
Hi there Dupre,
Firstly, the £30,000 modular course I mentioned involved getting the CPL/ME in the US. It wouldbe more like £40,000 in the UK, so you're looking at saving ~£18,000 by coming over to the UK with your NZ CPL/ME. Believe me it will be cheaper than doing it in the UK.
These figures are real finger in the air stuff so don't take anything as gospel
From your description of the NZ market for twin GA, I think it's not a million miles away from the UK - there are very few opportunities for ME hours in GA here.
cheers!
foggy
Firstly, the £30,000 modular course I mentioned involved getting the CPL/ME in the US. It wouldbe more like £40,000 in the UK, so you're looking at saving ~£18,000 by coming over to the UK with your NZ CPL/ME. Believe me it will be cheaper than doing it in the UK.
These figures are real finger in the air stuff so don't take anything as gospel
From your description of the NZ market for twin GA, I think it's not a million miles away from the UK - there are very few opportunities for ME hours in GA here.
cheers!
foggy
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Posts: n/a
" From your description of the NZ market for twin GA, I think it's not a million miles away from the UK - there are very few opportunities for ME hours in GA here." says foghorn.
I can very much confirm this to be the case in the UK - unless you want to pay yourself of course.
I've got as far as a frozen ATPL, and the ballpark figures mentioned here are about right. Its hard to be accurate, because you only have to blow an IR test once or twice and you can start adding thousands to the price.
Fly as much as you can afford in NZ. UK flying is amongst the most expensive in the world -mainly linked to the price of fuel, I suspect. (Avgas locally costs £stg 1.15 a litre. Unleaded petrol £stg 0.78 a litre).
Good luck with you choosen career path.
Is it worth it ??
I dunno. Let you know when I eventually get a job !
I can very much confirm this to be the case in the UK - unless you want to pay yourself of course.
I've got as far as a frozen ATPL, and the ballpark figures mentioned here are about right. Its hard to be accurate, because you only have to blow an IR test once or twice and you can start adding thousands to the price.
Fly as much as you can afford in NZ. UK flying is amongst the most expensive in the world -mainly linked to the price of fuel, I suspect. (Avgas locally costs £stg 1.15 a litre. Unleaded petrol £stg 0.78 a litre).
Good luck with you choosen career path.
Is it worth it ??
I dunno. Let you know when I eventually get a job !
