FI jobs next season
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Much of the point has been missed again during the depressingly familiar clash of egos that has become an unfortunate 'feature' of this forum of late.
Remember, and this is basic stuff, that the success and prosperity of any capitalist economy relies for the greater part on CONFIDENCE. Confidence is something generated when perception of any given circumstance is one of positivist, growth and expansion.
This industry like any other relies on a tangible level of confidence both from investors and consumers alike, and particularly from consumers in our case. No one here disputes the implications of the current climate, but you people do us all a great dis-service by entering into protracted debate based on so much opinion.
What any industry, nation, or political party needs at time of distress is to show a united and POSITIVE face during times of uncertainty. I say 'political party', and use the phrase advisedly because this is all about politics. The airline industry, whether it likes it or not has got an image problem within the public domain at the moment, and until public confidence is restored, there will be no upturn. Forget the infighting - if you want to turn on anyone, turn on the press. As is so often the case in this backward country of ours the media have been allowed to create a storm out of thin air. All of a sudden the globe associates air travel with terror and death. Air travel has been an unfortunate victim of global events, but as the professional face of this industry we need to embark on a delicate political recovery operation.
We all know that the media poke around in this forum looking for scandal and intrigue, so let's not shoot ourselves in the foot here.
Regarding FIs working for nothing, anyone should think very carefully about the implications of doing anything for nothing. Not only does this put the employee in an impossibly weak position, but it f**ks up the balance of power for everyone else. Are the FTOs getting any less from their students for the same training they always get? I don't think so. We are all desperate for hours and experience, but I think we once again need to show a united front here and put an end to this nonsense. Don't work for free, in fact paying for work is what you're doing in these circumstances.
N
Remember, and this is basic stuff, that the success and prosperity of any capitalist economy relies for the greater part on CONFIDENCE. Confidence is something generated when perception of any given circumstance is one of positivist, growth and expansion.
This industry like any other relies on a tangible level of confidence both from investors and consumers alike, and particularly from consumers in our case. No one here disputes the implications of the current climate, but you people do us all a great dis-service by entering into protracted debate based on so much opinion.
What any industry, nation, or political party needs at time of distress is to show a united and POSITIVE face during times of uncertainty. I say 'political party', and use the phrase advisedly because this is all about politics. The airline industry, whether it likes it or not has got an image problem within the public domain at the moment, and until public confidence is restored, there will be no upturn. Forget the infighting - if you want to turn on anyone, turn on the press. As is so often the case in this backward country of ours the media have been allowed to create a storm out of thin air. All of a sudden the globe associates air travel with terror and death. Air travel has been an unfortunate victim of global events, but as the professional face of this industry we need to embark on a delicate political recovery operation.
We all know that the media poke around in this forum looking for scandal and intrigue, so let's not shoot ourselves in the foot here.
Regarding FIs working for nothing, anyone should think very carefully about the implications of doing anything for nothing. Not only does this put the employee in an impossibly weak position, but it f**ks up the balance of power for everyone else. Are the FTOs getting any less from their students for the same training they always get? I don't think so. We are all desperate for hours and experience, but I think we once again need to show a united front here and put an end to this nonsense. Don't work for free, in fact paying for work is what you're doing in these circumstances.
N
Thread Starter
Nishko - laudable sentiments I am sure.
The flip side of us all putting a brave face on things would be to say that we are refusing to look facts in the face of course.
As pilots we generally hope for the best but plan for the worst. We are also open, succinct and lucid in our analysis of problems confronting us. These traits mitigate against any desire to brush this under the carpet or just suffer in dignified silence as a Wannabe community.
Do you not think?
WWW
The flip side of us all putting a brave face on things would be to say that we are refusing to look facts in the face of course.
As pilots we generally hope for the best but plan for the worst. We are also open, succinct and lucid in our analysis of problems confronting us. These traits mitigate against any desire to brush this under the carpet or just suffer in dignified silence as a Wannabe community.
Do you not think?
WWW
Join Date: Oct 1999
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I do think, but maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. The sentiment of my statement was intended to emanate a more positive and united front to the outside world - that being 'Jo public'. Those of us that are affected by current circumstances are only too aware of what is going on, so constant negative discussion here is not 'facing the situation' or 'educating' anyone regarding the facts of the problem, it is merely reinforcing an already gloomy atmosphere.
The public are the important factor here, and it is they who are interested in seeing an industry that is confident, positive, and professional. Only then will we start to see an upturn.
Like I said before, we are faced with a political challenge here, not an information shortage. Regardless of how much it hurts us to put a brave face on things, that is what we have to do. Remember, the general public's understanding of the airline industry is limited only to what it can understand from the media. The media are our key here to do a little 'spin doctoring' of our own.
I don't want to see anything being 'swept under the carpet' and I do not believe that taking a positive attitude and presenting a more brave public face is doing that. Times are tough, but the industry has enjoyed a long period of good times too, and good times coupled with investment and infrastructure tend to have a more powerful momentum than you'd think. The world is absolutely wrapped up in air travel, and it also has a very short memory. There is no conceivable way that half of the world's population is going to stop flying. They may threaten to as a reaction to feeling helpless and scared, but life is life, and it has to go on.
Importantly, what ever the causes and the blame, no one (particularly the public as a whole) likes to see an industry moaning when times are tough, it just isn't attractive. Unfortunately there are many who still see the airline industry as being a bit of a fat cat, and will have very little sympathy. This is why we need to be so careful now, and earn respect back.
Nish
The public are the important factor here, and it is they who are interested in seeing an industry that is confident, positive, and professional. Only then will we start to see an upturn.
Like I said before, we are faced with a political challenge here, not an information shortage. Regardless of how much it hurts us to put a brave face on things, that is what we have to do. Remember, the general public's understanding of the airline industry is limited only to what it can understand from the media. The media are our key here to do a little 'spin doctoring' of our own.
I don't want to see anything being 'swept under the carpet' and I do not believe that taking a positive attitude and presenting a more brave public face is doing that. Times are tough, but the industry has enjoyed a long period of good times too, and good times coupled with investment and infrastructure tend to have a more powerful momentum than you'd think. The world is absolutely wrapped up in air travel, and it also has a very short memory. There is no conceivable way that half of the world's population is going to stop flying. They may threaten to as a reaction to feeling helpless and scared, but life is life, and it has to go on.
Importantly, what ever the causes and the blame, no one (particularly the public as a whole) likes to see an industry moaning when times are tough, it just isn't attractive. Unfortunately there are many who still see the airline industry as being a bit of a fat cat, and will have very little sympathy. This is why we need to be so careful now, and earn respect back.
Nish
Join Date: Sep 1999
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I got involved in flying in the late 80’s which was a time when Irish airlines were actually phoning people with lapsed Commercial licenses and asking them if they wanted flying jobs. When I sat my PPL exams there were 4 people in the same hall sitting their ATPL exams.
With an upswing in the market, EI started their cadet scheme again and the numbers of people sitting exams rocketed, there were at least 100 people there when I sat my Commercial exams.
In the early 90’s, the Gulf War, the Australian pilots strike, the demise of a number of UK airlines together with Pan Am and Eastern, pilot jobs became incredibly scarce. The ones that were available were going to experienced crews. It took around 3-4 years before we started the next upswing.
The aviation industry is still on the way down, the Guv has written about this looming recession for months, but no one wanted to listen to him. We are going to see a lot more airlines going broke in the next 6 months with a lot of people losing their jobs. In the 90’s pilots escaped to the Middle East and Asia, but these options no longer exist, EK are the only Middle Eastern airline hiring groups of pilots, the Asian airlines are scaling down.
I am therefore pleased when I read comments by WWW and Scoggs, they are telling you the truth based on what they have seen in their aviation careers. You don’t have to listen to them, after all it is your money and time that you are investing, but you must do it with the knowledge that the days of walking into the right seat of a jet airliner with 200 hrs are GONE. They will come again, all that you have to do is make sure that you have a way to pay back your loans until that day.
Finally getting back to the original topic, I remember a comment attributed to the owner of IONA, (Defunct flight school in Dublin.) he believed in the late 80’s that he could get instructors to pay for the privilege of instructing in order to build hours. I don’t know if he ever tried this plan, but he wouldn’t have had any problems finding volunteers.
Good Luck and welcome to the wonderful world of aviation..
Mutt.
With an upswing in the market, EI started their cadet scheme again and the numbers of people sitting exams rocketed, there were at least 100 people there when I sat my Commercial exams.
In the early 90’s, the Gulf War, the Australian pilots strike, the demise of a number of UK airlines together with Pan Am and Eastern, pilot jobs became incredibly scarce. The ones that were available were going to experienced crews. It took around 3-4 years before we started the next upswing.
The aviation industry is still on the way down, the Guv has written about this looming recession for months, but no one wanted to listen to him. We are going to see a lot more airlines going broke in the next 6 months with a lot of people losing their jobs. In the 90’s pilots escaped to the Middle East and Asia, but these options no longer exist, EK are the only Middle Eastern airline hiring groups of pilots, the Asian airlines are scaling down.
I am therefore pleased when I read comments by WWW and Scoggs, they are telling you the truth based on what they have seen in their aviation careers. You don’t have to listen to them, after all it is your money and time that you are investing, but you must do it with the knowledge that the days of walking into the right seat of a jet airliner with 200 hrs are GONE. They will come again, all that you have to do is make sure that you have a way to pay back your loans until that day.
Finally getting back to the original topic, I remember a comment attributed to the owner of IONA, (Defunct flight school in Dublin.) he believed in the late 80’s that he could get instructors to pay for the privilege of instructing in order to build hours. I don’t know if he ever tried this plan, but he wouldn’t have had any problems finding volunteers.
Good Luck and welcome to the wonderful world of aviation..
Mutt.
Join Date: Sep 2001
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I should like to add my expression of appreciation to those already posted for the contributions of WWW. I agree with him that one must be realistic in these difficult times.
What ho Weasles! I was in Weasle country last week, down the Pembrokeshire coast. Lovely!
What ho Weasles! I was in Weasle country last week, down the Pembrokeshire coast. Lovely!
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Sorry Boys
The proof in the puddin' is that I flew over Oxford this week, gin clear, don't remember it being that windy and either everyone or all but one of there A/C was on the deck.
Looks to me that it has already started!!
The proof in the puddin' is that I flew over Oxford this week, gin clear, don't remember it being that windy and either everyone or all but one of there A/C was on the deck.
Looks to me that it has already started!!
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Do they wear, or just talk, turds in London?
P.S. The turban is not exclusive to their religion but is generally regarded as the headgear of Sikh men- it is, therefore, far more common in London than Wales.
P.P.S. If you wish to survive, don't suggest that Sikhs are Muslims.
P.S. The turban is not exclusive to their religion but is generally regarded as the headgear of Sikh men- it is, therefore, far more common in London than Wales.
P.P.S. If you wish to survive, don't suggest that Sikhs are Muslims.
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Nishko
Although you raise some valid points, I don’t agree with your stance about maintaining a positive and united public image on this site.
Although accessible by the general public, PPRuNe is supposedly for pilots and aspiring pilots and should be used as a vehicle for open and honest debate on the state of the aviation industry as people see it. I for one do not feel that valid thoughts should be silenced in case a journalist or Joe Public reads it.
If a bit of honesty makes someone think before investing a sizeable sum, then the Wannabes forum has done its job. Which is the greater evil? - A journo finding a quote from an ex flying instructor or a 20 year old fella getting a £15k or a £60k loan with little chance of suitable employment for perhaps 2 years.
A positive mental attitude is one thing, self-delusion is another. Experience says that there will be an upturn but lets not delude ourselves that it’s not all a bit crappy at the moment.
WWW keep it up.
Best regards
Although you raise some valid points, I don’t agree with your stance about maintaining a positive and united public image on this site.
Although accessible by the general public, PPRuNe is supposedly for pilots and aspiring pilots and should be used as a vehicle for open and honest debate on the state of the aviation industry as people see it. I for one do not feel that valid thoughts should be silenced in case a journalist or Joe Public reads it.
If a bit of honesty makes someone think before investing a sizeable sum, then the Wannabes forum has done its job. Which is the greater evil? - A journo finding a quote from an ex flying instructor or a 20 year old fella getting a £15k or a £60k loan with little chance of suitable employment for perhaps 2 years.
A positive mental attitude is one thing, self-delusion is another. Experience says that there will be an upturn but lets not delude ourselves that it’s not all a bit crappy at the moment.
WWW keep it up.
Best regards
Join Date: Aug 1999
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Supply and demand is a heartless taskmaster but if you cant build it into your plans quickly then you are destined to be a victim rather than a survivor.
Pilots are rather like Musicians or Actors. We are only neccessary as long as there are Passengers/Freight/Students.
Nobody is indispensible. Everyone can be replaced.
At the same time, I dont believe that small employers want to foster an atmosphere of fear loathing and paranoia which will contribute to them going out of business just as surely as some of their larger brethren.
Be keen, show willing in the face of adversity, be resourceful and experiment with new ways of organising your life to be in a position to grab chances as they may occur.
Think creatively. There are many instructors and no money.....there are many pupils with seemingly no money....and all of you want to fly Right?
There are many aeroplanes sitting on the ground costing money right?
If you all got together and instructed for free you would fly the wings of the a/c to the owners delight(also reducing the hourly costs considerably).
My guess is that you could be doing PPl's at US rates or cheaper. By interlining IMC and IR students on the same days you eliminate weather related groundings.
Training continues at night(why stop?)and IR approaches into the wee hours of the morning, where, bleary eyed you emerge at Coventry to refuel and hand the a/c over to your chums in the midlands who are going to do the same all the next day.
Now find a tame FTO and a base for the Pprune Flight Training network.
The Lunatics could thus take over the asylum.
Dont know if this would work but it costs nothing to speculate.
Pilots are rather like Musicians or Actors. We are only neccessary as long as there are Passengers/Freight/Students.
Nobody is indispensible. Everyone can be replaced.
At the same time, I dont believe that small employers want to foster an atmosphere of fear loathing and paranoia which will contribute to them going out of business just as surely as some of their larger brethren.
Be keen, show willing in the face of adversity, be resourceful and experiment with new ways of organising your life to be in a position to grab chances as they may occur.
Think creatively. There are many instructors and no money.....there are many pupils with seemingly no money....and all of you want to fly Right?
There are many aeroplanes sitting on the ground costing money right?
If you all got together and instructed for free you would fly the wings of the a/c to the owners delight(also reducing the hourly costs considerably).
My guess is that you could be doing PPl's at US rates or cheaper. By interlining IMC and IR students on the same days you eliminate weather related groundings.
Training continues at night(why stop?)and IR approaches into the wee hours of the morning, where, bleary eyed you emerge at Coventry to refuel and hand the a/c over to your chums in the midlands who are going to do the same all the next day.
Now find a tame FTO and a base for the Pprune Flight Training network.
The Lunatics could thus take over the asylum.
Dont know if this would work but it costs nothing to speculate.
