FI jobs next season
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WinkiePickie, forget it. These idiots don't want to hear well-intentioned and sound advice, they want to be reassured. Well, here we go:
OK, people, forget everything we've told you over the past month. Everything really is wonderful out there in this best of all possible worlds. There are oodles of jobs to be had, and I strongly recommmend that you spend £65,000 on an integrated course as soon as you possibly can. Better still, do it with the latest get-rich-quick outfit that you find, as they're all good chaps really. On the extremely remote chance that you find getting a jet command a little difficult in the first week or two after graduation, you'll find lots of FTOs willing to ignore the rules of supply and demand and who'll pay you £100k pa to fly once a month teaching the local grocer to fly a C150, while offering you an MCC course and B747-400 simulator time for free.
You'll, of course, have the use of one of your FTO's many Ferraris for impressing the many women who no doubt surround you at all times, and you'll get unlimited supplies of pheromone-reinforced 'Stud' BO-concealer to aid your chances.
Once you've done a month or two FI-ing for this FTO, your Concorde/777/744 captaincy with BA is assured, and you won't have to concern yourself with anything so trivial as a selection process as the grateful aviation industry will be on its knees to beg you to grace them with your presence.
On the other hand you could listen to, and be grateful for, a realistic view of life in aviation. And if you don't like it, go back to IT or accountancy, or train driving, or kindergarten, or whatever it is you came from. We don't need you.
OK, people, forget everything we've told you over the past month. Everything really is wonderful out there in this best of all possible worlds. There are oodles of jobs to be had, and I strongly recommmend that you spend £65,000 on an integrated course as soon as you possibly can. Better still, do it with the latest get-rich-quick outfit that you find, as they're all good chaps really. On the extremely remote chance that you find getting a jet command a little difficult in the first week or two after graduation, you'll find lots of FTOs willing to ignore the rules of supply and demand and who'll pay you £100k pa to fly once a month teaching the local grocer to fly a C150, while offering you an MCC course and B747-400 simulator time for free.You'll, of course, have the use of one of your FTO's many Ferraris for impressing the many women who no doubt surround you at all times, and you'll get unlimited supplies of pheromone-reinforced 'Stud' BO-concealer to aid your chances.
Once you've done a month or two FI-ing for this FTO, your Concorde/777/744 captaincy with BA is assured, and you won't have to concern yourself with anything so trivial as a selection process as the grateful aviation industry will be on its knees to beg you to grace them with your presence.
On the other hand you could listen to, and be grateful for, a realistic view of life in aviation. And if you don't like it, go back to IT or accountancy, or train driving, or kindergarten, or whatever it is you came from. We don't need you.
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Scroggs,You forgot to mention the huge holidays as well. 
At the end of the day the decision to start flight training will remain with the individual.There is plenty of advice on prune regarding which way to go.If you want to spend £65000 right now on flight training then go ahead.It may however be worth waiting a while for things to pan out.You need to time your training to finish when there might be some jobs about.
The Industry at the moment is in a bit of a panic.Things are quite gloomy.It is no use shouting at WWW and Scroggs if you don`t like what you hear.(Scroggs is in a lot worse a position than most of use as he may not have a job at the end of the month).
Things will pick up,but may not be for a while.
Before 11th Sept things were the best they have ever been for hiring of low time pilots,it still was bloody hard to land a job though.
People may benefit in the long run.Course prices may come down a bit to try and attract new business.This is one of the benefits of modular training as you can speed up or slow down training accordingly.
Some people will attempt to exploit the situation ie the FTO who will want people to fly for nothing....but I bet their prices compare with the FTO who pay a living wage to their staff.
At the end of the day if you want to sign up for a £65000 now then go on.You`ll need quite a good job to pay your loan back whilst waiting for a jet job.Failing that can I have a go in your Dad`s Ferrari??
At the end of the day the decision to start flight training will remain with the individual.There is plenty of advice on prune regarding which way to go.If you want to spend £65000 right now on flight training then go ahead.It may however be worth waiting a while for things to pan out.You need to time your training to finish when there might be some jobs about.
The Industry at the moment is in a bit of a panic.Things are quite gloomy.It is no use shouting at WWW and Scroggs if you don`t like what you hear.(Scroggs is in a lot worse a position than most of use as he may not have a job at the end of the month).
Things will pick up,but may not be for a while.
Before 11th Sept things were the best they have ever been for hiring of low time pilots,it still was bloody hard to land a job though.
People may benefit in the long run.Course prices may come down a bit to try and attract new business.This is one of the benefits of modular training as you can speed up or slow down training accordingly.
Some people will attempt to exploit the situation ie the FTO who will want people to fly for nothing....but I bet their prices compare with the FTO who pay a living wage to their staff.
At the end of the day if you want to sign up for a £65000 now then go on.You`ll need quite a good job to pay your loan back whilst waiting for a jet job.Failing that can I have a go in your Dad`s Ferrari??
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Well what fun this is!
First of all as I was the one who first attacked WWW on this post I can now respond to his reply.
WWW, I could have put things better last night but anyhow what I said still stands. I think that some of the things you post on the doom and gloom side do not help in any way , on the other hand some things do help. I would not advise someone to spend 65K tomorrow on a course either but I would not cast speculation on what might happen if all it will do is get up peoples noses. I am not ignoring the facts but I believe as I said last night that we are in a period of uncertainty and we should only post when we are certain about something. We do not know that the instructor market will be a complete nightmare next year, when we do and we have good strong reliable and justified evidence then we should advise people to put the brakes on a bit. I do not believe we have reached that point yet and until then I think posting speculative negativity or even the truth about the odd job loss here and there will do no good.
WWW I have to stand up for you where “Hotwings” is concerned but I probably share in his frustration sometimes. As for the post from Sgroggs, well…….
I too hope that things will not get that bad but I am fully aware they might, and it all might go down the pan for most of us. Until then let’s try and offer constructive help to people rather than being the first person to announce that if things get bad some time and I don’t know when it will be hell. (Hell is not here yet)
I think what gets up peoples noses about some of your posts is the tone not the content, sometime the way you put things across comes out in a kind of (“listen to what I just found out, I am the clever one”
I don’t mean that in a nasty way but I think it is true.
Anyway enough of me, (and Andy 99.9% of us do appreciate what you do post 95% of the time)
First of all as I was the one who first attacked WWW on this post I can now respond to his reply.
WWW, I could have put things better last night but anyhow what I said still stands. I think that some of the things you post on the doom and gloom side do not help in any way , on the other hand some things do help. I would not advise someone to spend 65K tomorrow on a course either but I would not cast speculation on what might happen if all it will do is get up peoples noses. I am not ignoring the facts but I believe as I said last night that we are in a period of uncertainty and we should only post when we are certain about something. We do not know that the instructor market will be a complete nightmare next year, when we do and we have good strong reliable and justified evidence then we should advise people to put the brakes on a bit. I do not believe we have reached that point yet and until then I think posting speculative negativity or even the truth about the odd job loss here and there will do no good.
WWW I have to stand up for you where “Hotwings” is concerned but I probably share in his frustration sometimes. As for the post from Sgroggs, well…….
I too hope that things will not get that bad but I am fully aware they might, and it all might go down the pan for most of us. Until then let’s try and offer constructive help to people rather than being the first person to announce that if things get bad some time and I don’t know when it will be hell. (Hell is not here yet)
I think what gets up peoples noses about some of your posts is the tone not the content, sometime the way you put things across comes out in a kind of (“listen to what I just found out, I am the clever one”
I don’t mean that in a nasty way but I think it is true.Anyway enough of me, (and Andy 99.9% of us do appreciate what you do post 95% of the time)
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200v, D11, glad you enjoyed my little rant! Hopefully, people will get the point that the advice we give is given in good faith and with your best interests at heart. All I can say is, I now know how my parents felt!!!
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Well said Scroggs & WWW,(white hat & baddie)as just a lurker on this site its been very interesting to note how the tone of wannabe posts has changed from the disbelief & horror we all experienced after 11th Sept,to the attitudes now ranging from the ostrich like,to the reckless.
At the risk of appearing a boring old fart,here's my fourpennorth.Most references to 'we have all been here before'go back 10 years to the Gulf War,well it was exactly the same 10 years before that-in,the Falklands.Some of us drove trucks and instructed at weekends,yes,for nothing,zilch & lived in a caravan on the field.No cadetships then chaps.
By the time the Gulf conflict blew up,apprenticeships had been served on King-Airs across the North Sea overloaded with newspapers,Viscount nightfreighters,F27's (hand flown),the list could go on.Having secured that elusive 'Airline' job,the failures rocked the industry just as now:Bcal,Air Europe,Dan Air,Air Anglia et al.
Now,jet commands that had taken anywhere between 11-20years to secure were gone,relegation to the LHS & redundancy for the newboys.See,it's all been done before.
Looking back from the relative security of having 500 'Names' behind on the seniority list,was it worth it? Of course it was.But maybe you guys&gals will understand why some of us read these posts with a wry grin,a sense of Deva-Ju,and a feeling that some of you are not yet living in the real world.
Both WWW & Scroggs talk good sense in their own way,be sure that there will be an upturn,but don't be reckless with your hard earned cash.Oh,& don't expect it all to be handed on a plate,it requires tenacity to succeed in this business.
At the risk of appearing a boring old fart,here's my fourpennorth.Most references to 'we have all been here before'go back 10 years to the Gulf War,well it was exactly the same 10 years before that-in,the Falklands.Some of us drove trucks and instructed at weekends,yes,for nothing,zilch & lived in a caravan on the field.No cadetships then chaps.
By the time the Gulf conflict blew up,apprenticeships had been served on King-Airs across the North Sea overloaded with newspapers,Viscount nightfreighters,F27's (hand flown),the list could go on.Having secured that elusive 'Airline' job,the failures rocked the industry just as now:Bcal,Air Europe,Dan Air,Air Anglia et al.
Now,jet commands that had taken anywhere between 11-20years to secure were gone,relegation to the LHS & redundancy for the newboys.See,it's all been done before.
Looking back from the relative security of having 500 'Names' behind on the seniority list,was it worth it? Of course it was.But maybe you guys&gals will understand why some of us read these posts with a wry grin,a sense of Deva-Ju,and a feeling that some of you are not yet living in the real world.
Both WWW & Scroggs talk good sense in their own way,be sure that there will be an upturn,but don't be reckless with your hard earned cash.Oh,& don't expect it all to be handed on a plate,it requires tenacity to succeed in this business.
The Original Whirly
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I don't believe what I'm reading!!!! I was under the illusion this was PPRuNe, ie Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network. That means people can post what they know, what they hear, what they think - absolute certainty is NOT required. And you may not like some of it. Well, tough. But to blame WWW for posting something he had HEARD about is childish, stupid, and way out of order. You can burble on as much as you like about negativity, the tone of WWW's arguments etc, but it doesn't alter that fact. You're lucky the moderators here have got more patience than I have; I'd have banned some of you long before now.
Why don't you GROW UP if you EVER expect to get anywhere in aviation, because at the moment I wouldn't employ some of you whining idiots as loo cleaners, let alone airline pilots.
Why don't you GROW UP if you EVER expect to get anywhere in aviation, because at the moment I wouldn't employ some of you whining idiots as loo cleaners, let alone airline pilots.
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Whirlybird, I quite agree - I thought this was supposed to be an open forum with honest, professional opinions. Just because WWW discusses honestly and realistically his view of the situation (and probably mine as a PPL thinknig about the future), it would appear that some contributors to this forum would rather stick their heads in the sand and ignore the problems.
Just becasue you do not like a situation, it does not mean it will go a away, or more importantly, should not be discussed.
WWW, thanks for all your help and advice which you dispense so freely to Wannabes like myself - long may it continue, regardless of the petty sniping from some members of this forum.
TZ
Just becasue you do not like a situation, it does not mean it will go a away, or more importantly, should not be discussed.
WWW, thanks for all your help and advice which you dispense so freely to Wannabes like myself - long may it continue, regardless of the petty sniping from some members of this forum.
TZ
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Well after reading this [all of it] im gobsmacked,especially the part from WWW about the flight school owner and his plans not to pay instructors[i hope the pigs school crashes]its an outrage.In the light of recent events i was 50 % to making a decision to get out of instructing back to my old job where the pay is good and just pay to keep current,im now 100% ive got to live like everyone else.Im going to do my IR and try and keep current till things improve.Sorry but no way am i instructing for free, and IMHO anyone that does, well i,ll keep a lid on my feelings there. 
Thread Starter
Can we all be friends again now please?
Cheers,
WWW
Cheers,
WWW
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I honestly cannot believe some of the personalisation of posts.
Unfortunately this is one major problem with the internet, it is easy to sit there and type, much harder to have the balls and come out and say it face to face.
Healthy debate is essential for such posts, if you have evidence to disprove a post then say it but lets not get personal.
Personally speaking, I would suggest adopting a wait and see policy. Hopefully this Afghanistani war will be over soon, the terrorist threat removed and confidence restored in the aviation industry. If it drags on some airlines are likely to go under, but as IFR has said previously new airlines will be borne once demand picks up. I don't personally believe that I could get funding for flight training atm, no bank will say yeah go ahead here is 60k, as Banks will be aware that the job situation is not great. Unfortunately training takes around 14 months, so some educated guess work will have to be taken prior to commencing any course for the forseable future. Time it right and the gamble has paid off, time it wrong and you will be in large debts, struggling to find a job and remaining current.
Some people are likely to be able to work for nowt, others won't be. Unfortunately times appear bleak atm, and a lot of the posts appear to me to be borne out of frustration or just plain "I don't want to believe someone elses opinion".
It will be interesting to see if Flying Schools cut prices for integrated courses in an attempt to boost demand. Unfortunately fuel prices, landing fees etc are fixed costs. To cut prices, a flying school has to cut costs to maintain profitability or in the very least break even. Economics states that to remain in business in the long run, a firm should at the very least break even. One way in which to cut costs is to cut salaries of the Flying Instructors and staff, as well as belt tightening as much as possible. Noone wants to hear it, noone wants to accept it but I can honestly see flying schools doing such.
The ironic and perhaps the sad bit being, that for some wannabes it could be the ideal time to at least get that license out of the way (lower prices for integrated courses) and for others who have their licenses be a totally unacceptable, miserable state of affairs.
Don't shoot down WWW it does make economic sense what he is saying, it might not happen who knows, I certainly don't! but it is a viable option for flying schools and a real possibility.
Best of luck to everyone
Sagey
Unfortunately this is one major problem with the internet, it is easy to sit there and type, much harder to have the balls and come out and say it face to face.
Healthy debate is essential for such posts, if you have evidence to disprove a post then say it but lets not get personal.
Personally speaking, I would suggest adopting a wait and see policy. Hopefully this Afghanistani war will be over soon, the terrorist threat removed and confidence restored in the aviation industry. If it drags on some airlines are likely to go under, but as IFR has said previously new airlines will be borne once demand picks up. I don't personally believe that I could get funding for flight training atm, no bank will say yeah go ahead here is 60k, as Banks will be aware that the job situation is not great. Unfortunately training takes around 14 months, so some educated guess work will have to be taken prior to commencing any course for the forseable future. Time it right and the gamble has paid off, time it wrong and you will be in large debts, struggling to find a job and remaining current.
Some people are likely to be able to work for nowt, others won't be. Unfortunately times appear bleak atm, and a lot of the posts appear to me to be borne out of frustration or just plain "I don't want to believe someone elses opinion".
It will be interesting to see if Flying Schools cut prices for integrated courses in an attempt to boost demand. Unfortunately fuel prices, landing fees etc are fixed costs. To cut prices, a flying school has to cut costs to maintain profitability or in the very least break even. Economics states that to remain in business in the long run, a firm should at the very least break even. One way in which to cut costs is to cut salaries of the Flying Instructors and staff, as well as belt tightening as much as possible. Noone wants to hear it, noone wants to accept it but I can honestly see flying schools doing such.
The ironic and perhaps the sad bit being, that for some wannabes it could be the ideal time to at least get that license out of the way (lower prices for integrated courses) and for others who have their licenses be a totally unacceptable, miserable state of affairs.
Don't shoot down WWW it does make economic sense what he is saying, it might not happen who knows, I certainly don't! but it is a viable option for flying schools and a real possibility.
Best of luck to everyone
Sagey
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Hey Scroggs.....you've been looking at the FTO marketing departments patter manual!!
(your rant wasn't that far off what they told me three years ago!)
I'm sure, by the way, the overwhelming majority of us appreciate both your and WWW's analysis/reflection of the job situation. It's all food for thought and can help one to formulate a plan.
(your rant wasn't that far off what they told me three years ago!)
I'm sure, by the way, the overwhelming majority of us appreciate both your and WWW's analysis/reflection of the job situation. It's all food for thought and can help one to formulate a plan.
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Not wishing to get into the personal argument against WWW vs etc etc.
However, as I understand it, the ONLY advice being given out is to delay training if possible and wait and see what happens over the next few months.
What I will say is that this message is delivered with a VERY heavy hand, and as such is generating a similar response. I agree with the advice, but the way it's written with all doom and gloom with every changing event, does tend to rub some up the wrong way (me included btw).
Lets cut the personal bit out and get on with the real debates.
PS
However, as I understand it, the ONLY advice being given out is to delay training if possible and wait and see what happens over the next few months.
What I will say is that this message is delivered with a VERY heavy hand, and as such is generating a similar response. I agree with the advice, but the way it's written with all doom and gloom with every changing event, does tend to rub some up the wrong way (me included btw).
Lets cut the personal bit out and get on with the real debates.
PS
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WWW,
I haven't got involved in any of your 'doom-mongering' threads before now, mainly because I think your advice is relatively sound. I have decided not to take your advice myself, but this is due to my circumstances more than anything (ie, I handed in my notice on 10th September, having already made arrangements to start full-time ground school). I'm also not going to shoot the messenger with regard to your posting about the FTO with the retainer-only deal.
However, I do take exception to the following:
So you're going to shoot the rest of us in the foot instead? Ta. For you to advise a silver-spoon-in-mouth spoiled rich kid to work for free is very irresponsible.
Firstly your comment 'he is willing to do this...', makes it sound as if he's sacrificing something. I'm sorry, he gets everything handed to him on a plate by his rich daddy and gets to build hours at someone else's expense. Poor sod. My heart bleeds for him.
Having been an instructor yourself I would've thought you would know how this kind of behaviour is looked upon by real instructors, particularly career instructors who see their salaries forced down enough as it is by hour-builders, but working for free? I am shocked that you would encourage this. You're basically adding to the problem and making the airline industry even more elitist than it already is! You even say yourself that you find it infuriating. So stop setting a precedent! Bloody hell.
I haven't got involved in any of your 'doom-mongering' threads before now, mainly because I think your advice is relatively sound. I have decided not to take your advice myself, but this is due to my circumstances more than anything (ie, I handed in my notice on 10th September, having already made arrangements to start full-time ground school). I'm also not going to shoot the messenger with regard to your posting about the FTO with the retainer-only deal.
However, I do take exception to the following:
He is willing to do this in order to position himself for the upturn. As I have advised him to do.
No amount of imploring people to stick to a standard and not work for free will work. It never has. Its infuriating that people will do this.
However, I have advised my friend to follow this route becuase I know that if he does not then he is shooting himself in the foot long term. And he is a friend and it is important I help him.
No amount of imploring people to stick to a standard and not work for free will work. It never has. Its infuriating that people will do this.
However, I have advised my friend to follow this route becuase I know that if he does not then he is shooting himself in the foot long term. And he is a friend and it is important I help him.
Firstly your comment 'he is willing to do this...', makes it sound as if he's sacrificing something. I'm sorry, he gets everything handed to him on a plate by his rich daddy and gets to build hours at someone else's expense. Poor sod. My heart bleeds for him.
Having been an instructor yourself I would've thought you would know how this kind of behaviour is looked upon by real instructors, particularly career instructors who see their salaries forced down enough as it is by hour-builders, but working for free? I am shocked that you would encourage this. You're basically adding to the problem and making the airline industry even more elitist than it already is! You even say yourself that you find it infuriating. So stop setting a precedent! Bloody hell.
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WWW - Please find out who was the handling pilot on GO on Friday night from STN to EDI dep 21:45 and tell him:
I will soon be fully recovered from the shocking landing - only a few more trips to the doc and the spacing of my vertebrae will be back to normal.
Maybe his rad alt was faulty?
I will soon be fully recovered from the shocking landing - only a few more trips to the doc and the spacing of my vertebrae will be back to normal.
Maybe his rad alt was faulty?
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WWW- telling it how it is- well done Sir, I can only think some wannabees forgot to take their screens (blinkers) down.
One point though- In 1991 there wasn't a minimum wage- there is now- it might not be alot but it should stop the free labour scenario.These days the only work you can do for free is for a charity.
One point though- In 1991 there wasn't a minimum wage- there is now- it might not be alot but it should stop the free labour scenario.These days the only work you can do for free is for a charity.
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Which CFI/School ?
Maybe those who are familiar with it can then assess whether the attitude has a bearing on the product.Market forces or not, one way or another you get what you pay for.
Maybe those who are familiar with it can then assess whether the attitude has a bearing on the product.Market forces or not, one way or another you get what you pay for.
Thread Starter
Token Bird. A mates a mate at the end of the day. I value my friends more than my principles on employment practice. Thats just me I guess.
WWW
WWW
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Come on guys - off WWW's back. He posted a FACT and expressed an opinion about it - is this not what the forum is for?
I personally think that trying to get FI's to work for nothing stinks and any CFI/FTO operator who does this stinks too - but if that is how they want to work, then so be it. I just hope they don't expect loyalty when the business picks up.
However, if someone is prepared to work for nothing, that is their business, too. I could not afford to do it but some can and they are perfectly within their rights so to do.
I also do not think that WWW is consistently negative - I have seen him post many glowing words about his old (and my current) employers at BAE Systems in Jerez. He does, however, have lots of contacts and a realistic approach.
So, live and let live - opinion is good, insult is bad!
TTFN
Moggie
PS - WWW who are you? I think you left before I transferred from PIK! e-mail and let me know!
[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]
I personally think that trying to get FI's to work for nothing stinks and any CFI/FTO operator who does this stinks too - but if that is how they want to work, then so be it. I just hope they don't expect loyalty when the business picks up.
However, if someone is prepared to work for nothing, that is their business, too. I could not afford to do it but some can and they are perfectly within their rights so to do.
I also do not think that WWW is consistently negative - I have seen him post many glowing words about his old (and my current) employers at BAE Systems in Jerez. He does, however, have lots of contacts and a realistic approach.
So, live and let live - opinion is good, insult is bad!
TTFN
Moggie
PS - WWW who are you? I think you left before I transferred from PIK! e-mail and let me know!
[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]
I say there boy
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Hmm I too have tended to keep out of these job market threads, but the machine-gunning of the messenger that has taken place is completely out of order.
I may not agree with everything that they say, but personally I much more respect WWW, scroggs and IFR's input into these debates than certain anonymous member's postings. No-one can doubt their bona fides and the sincerity of their intentions: these people through pprune have shown their commitment to wannabes. To suggest they have hidden agendas is plain silly. As has been said, it's easy to pour vitriol into a computer and semi-anonymously post to an internet bulletin board, but it's not very grown-up.
I speak as a person at the sharp end as it were, with no job, an IR dated September 12th 2001 and only 250 hours TT.
Not that you need my support, chaps, but you have it anyway.
cheers!
foggy.
I may not agree with everything that they say, but personally I much more respect WWW, scroggs and IFR's input into these debates than certain anonymous member's postings. No-one can doubt their bona fides and the sincerity of their intentions: these people through pprune have shown their commitment to wannabes. To suggest they have hidden agendas is plain silly. As has been said, it's easy to pour vitriol into a computer and semi-anonymously post to an internet bulletin board, but it's not very grown-up.
I speak as a person at the sharp end as it were, with no job, an IR dated September 12th 2001 and only 250 hours TT.
Not that you need my support, chaps, but you have it anyway.
cheers!
foggy.
Thread Starter
Cheers chaps.
Moggie, email on way,
WWW
Moggie, email on way,
WWW