Career change possible?
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to go for a fATPL in the current climate is a bit insane
especially with additional factors like no class 1 (i am not sure any airline will employe without a class 1) and after 40.
There are guys out there with 1000s of jet hours and right age, got dismissed after 11/9 and they cant find any airline job, they got jobs outside aviation or are just on the dole.
I personally left a good-paying manager position two years ago to finish the IR /ME of my JAA fATPL (modular). Been applying since then for an airline job.
The job market is really ****ed off. Sending cvs is like throwing them in a black hole. even connections dont work nowadays. And if you find a position it will be probably with the likes of Ryan air, easy, virgin or other similar low-cost operators (who treat their employees like @#&)
especially with additional factors like no class 1 (i am not sure any airline will employe without a class 1) and after 40.
There are guys out there with 1000s of jet hours and right age, got dismissed after 11/9 and they cant find any airline job, they got jobs outside aviation or are just on the dole.
I personally left a good-paying manager position two years ago to finish the IR /ME of my JAA fATPL (modular). Been applying since then for an airline job.
The job market is really ****ed off. Sending cvs is like throwing them in a black hole. even connections dont work nowadays. And if you find a position it will be probably with the likes of Ryan air, easy, virgin or other similar low-cost operators (who treat their employees like @#&)
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Kefuddle_UK Hear hear.
Discrimination is when you try to put people into boxes rather than considering each person as an individual with different merits, aptitude, intelligence, etc etc.
scroggs, the military used to block women from their recruitment, too, and plenty people defended that as being justified risk management, yada yada yada
It's probably true that younger recruits are generally, on average, quicker to train than older recruits, just as it may be true that women are less likely to be suitable than men, but to apply that logic to every person without giving them a chance to go through selection procedures, is what we most of us these days call discrimination, if not facism.
Discrimination is when you try to put people into boxes rather than considering each person as an individual with different merits, aptitude, intelligence, etc etc.
scroggs, the military used to block women from their recruitment, too, and plenty people defended that as being justified risk management, yada yada yada
It's probably true that younger recruits are generally, on average, quicker to train than older recruits, just as it may be true that women are less likely to be suitable than men, but to apply that logic to every person without giving them a chance to go through selection procedures, is what we most of us these days call discrimination, if not facism.
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In the same boat
Norman2 - I'm in exactly the same position - age 43, IT job (pays well, boring), PPL(A) holder - would love to change career to flying anything for a job.
In my mind I just need to ensure that I could have enough cash to support my family and aim to use my IT salary to buy a couple of houses to let out.
That should at least secure a future income.
I intend to work towards getting an FI(R) possibly still as a PPL - so I won't get paid but would be great for hours. Then do CPL(A) when I can and hope for paid work.
I don't think I would get a airline job owing to my age by the time I'd completed the necessary ratings but at least I would have tried. Which is better than looking back in 10 years time and thinking that I should have - even if I'm worse off financially.
In my mind I just need to ensure that I could have enough cash to support my family and aim to use my IT salary to buy a couple of houses to let out.
That should at least secure a future income.I intend to work towards getting an FI(R) possibly still as a PPL - so I won't get paid but would be great for hours. Then do CPL(A) when I can and hope for paid work.
I don't think I would get a airline job owing to my age by the time I'd completed the necessary ratings but at least I would have tried. Which is better than looking back in 10 years time and thinking that I should have - even if I'm worse off financially.
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mikeo
Well done for bringing the thread back on-topic! We've strayed a bit from the original discussion.
Kefuddle
Yes, I think you're right - but I'm not sure what's violent about it!
carb
I think that you and I are just going to have to accept that we are coming from different angles here. Neither I nor EZ, JMC, Ryan, the RAF or whomever are fascist (and I would resent that insinuation, if I could be bothered), and it's true that opinions change over time about what objective criteria should be met when looking for new blood. But objective criteria will always be there, if only to limit the workload for the recruiters.
Or are you seriously suggesting that every able-bodied wannabe should be interviewed for every employment opportunity? You gonna pay for that?!
Well done for bringing the thread back on-topic! We've strayed a bit from the original discussion.
Kefuddle
Yes, I think you're right - but I'm not sure what's violent about it!
carb
I think that you and I are just going to have to accept that we are coming from different angles here. Neither I nor EZ, JMC, Ryan, the RAF or whomever are fascist (and I would resent that insinuation, if I could be bothered), and it's true that opinions change over time about what objective criteria should be met when looking for new blood. But objective criteria will always be there, if only to limit the workload for the recruiters.
Or are you seriously suggesting that every able-bodied wannabe should be interviewed for every employment opportunity? You gonna pay for that?!
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I do understand your angle - just don't accept it necessarily has to be that way. And no, I'm not calling anyone a fascist! Nor would I propose interviewing every living, breathing wannabe ('able-bodied'? not necessarily, in the more forward-looking US anyway!) -- sifting through all their applications and credentials, though, perhaps...
edited cos I can't spell
edited cos I can't spell
Last edited by carb; 7th Dec 2002 at 14:45.
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Norman2,
I was 33 when I decided to change career. I'd been in the Civil Service for 16 years and had held a PPL for 10. I didn't have a bean to my name, but with about £20K of equity in my house I decided to sell it and beg and borrow the remainder required to go to Cabair at Cranfield for the ATPL. I did the ATPL Groundschool then the BCPL (it was still CAA rules at that time) and then the approved BCPL-CPL/IR Upgrade.
I now fly Airbus A320/321 for a living and feel that, despite a few hardships along the way, changing to a career in aviation was the best thing I ever did. If you want something badly enough just go for it !
Good luck.
GF
I was 33 when I decided to change career. I'd been in the Civil Service for 16 years and had held a PPL for 10. I didn't have a bean to my name, but with about £20K of equity in my house I decided to sell it and beg and borrow the remainder required to go to Cabair at Cranfield for the ATPL. I did the ATPL Groundschool then the BCPL (it was still CAA rules at that time) and then the approved BCPL-CPL/IR Upgrade.
I now fly Airbus A320/321 for a living and feel that, despite a few hardships along the way, changing to a career in aviation was the best thing I ever did. If you want something badly enough just go for it !
Good luck.
GF
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Good for you Greenfinch, but not a common experience I would think from the replies already posted to Normans Q.
Enough said about age discrimination, it is more relevant to sponsorship schemes and is featured on other threads. I don't think age makes much difference if you are paying your own way - it is equally tough for everybody.
Norman2
It would be nice to know your plans, given the mixed bag of responses to your post! I think going the Commercial flying route is like buying a Ferrari, it is in no way practical, costs a fortune to run, but God it's a great car. If you have to do it, you have to do it, sod the cost. Just don't whinge about it afterwards like so many people on these forums!
Barney
Enough said about age discrimination, it is more relevant to sponsorship schemes and is featured on other threads. I don't think age makes much difference if you are paying your own way - it is equally tough for everybody.
Norman2
It would be nice to know your plans, given the mixed bag of responses to your post! I think going the Commercial flying route is like buying a Ferrari, it is in no way practical, costs a fortune to run, but God it's a great car. If you have to do it, you have to do it, sod the cost. Just don't whinge about it afterwards like so many people on these forums!
Barney
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G-RICH
No, it doesn't really apply - we'd just strayed from Norman2's question to the wider issues of who airlines recruit and why. It's a topic that's been moot on a number of threads recently. I apologise to Norman for getting off-topic - which, to answer your points, I'm going to have to do again. Sorry!
You're right - the greatest training risk is the inintial entrant to training. There's no history, so all the employer can do is ensure that the candidate has a majority of the physical and mental characteristics of those who have succeeded in the past. As this is, at best, an imprecise science, many of those candidates will fall by the wayside until, at the end of line training on the first commercial (or military) type, you have a pilot who you can reasonably expect to succeed through the rest of his or her flying career. When that pilot is required, in later life, to undergo training on other types, their proven aptitude combined with their growing experience will make such conversions relatively straightforward and risk-free.
Those under-30s whose lives primarily revolve around booze, 'music', and the opposite sex are unlikely ever to succeed in this process, as you suggest. Er.... on the other hand, that description fits a great many pilots I know - including me and one or two other Mods!! But determination, confidence and motivation are certainly the most important qualities for any wannabe.
The trouble is that learning a completely new skill gets progressively more difficult as we get older, so we need more time to successfully master it. Employers, of any variety, are reluctant to indulge in extended (ie more expensive) courses to accommodate older trainees, and so they tend not to offer them - and they certainly won't queue to train untried pilots of relatively advanced years! That doesn't mean that it can't or won't happen for Norman2, just that it's less likely than for someone 10 or 15 years younger.
As for your advice about keeping a second string to your bow, I think that applies to all of us, doesn't it?!
No, it doesn't really apply - we'd just strayed from Norman2's question to the wider issues of who airlines recruit and why. It's a topic that's been moot on a number of threads recently. I apologise to Norman for getting off-topic - which, to answer your points, I'm going to have to do again. Sorry!
You're right - the greatest training risk is the inintial entrant to training. There's no history, so all the employer can do is ensure that the candidate has a majority of the physical and mental characteristics of those who have succeeded in the past. As this is, at best, an imprecise science, many of those candidates will fall by the wayside until, at the end of line training on the first commercial (or military) type, you have a pilot who you can reasonably expect to succeed through the rest of his or her flying career. When that pilot is required, in later life, to undergo training on other types, their proven aptitude combined with their growing experience will make such conversions relatively straightforward and risk-free.
Those under-30s whose lives primarily revolve around booze, 'music', and the opposite sex are unlikely ever to succeed in this process, as you suggest. Er.... on the other hand, that description fits a great many pilots I know - including me and one or two other Mods!! But determination, confidence and motivation are certainly the most important qualities for any wannabe.
The trouble is that learning a completely new skill gets progressively more difficult as we get older, so we need more time to successfully master it. Employers, of any variety, are reluctant to indulge in extended (ie more expensive) courses to accommodate older trainees, and so they tend not to offer them - and they certainly won't queue to train untried pilots of relatively advanced years! That doesn't mean that it can't or won't happen for Norman2, just that it's less likely than for someone 10 or 15 years younger.
As for your advice about keeping a second string to your bow, I think that applies to all of us, doesn't it?!
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To answer the person who asked what I was doing. The answer at present is nothing. I didn't volunteer for severance in the end and they didn't make me take it either.
Clearly there would be a fair degree of risk of unemployment - but if I was single then I would take it - even if at the end of it I had just had an interesting year of flying training out of it.
But with a family, it's easier to stay put - perhaps I am a coward in that sense. But I think school fees may take priority.
Perhaps I can blame the CAA for their unneccessary eyesight limits (uncorrected) in the years gone by. Mind you I should have married a Yank and gone commercial in the US if I had thought about it!
Clearly there would be a fair degree of risk of unemployment - but if I was single then I would take it - even if at the end of it I had just had an interesting year of flying training out of it.
But with a family, it's easier to stay put - perhaps I am a coward in that sense. But I think school fees may take priority.
Perhaps I can blame the CAA for their unneccessary eyesight limits (uncorrected) in the years gone by. Mind you I should have married a Yank and gone commercial in the US if I had thought about it!
