Captain Title
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 1
From: Egcc
Query
Quite right, using it to advertise your flying school is completely professional and desireable, lets face it, who'd want to sign up for training under 2nd Officer Joe Bloggs?
Beamer
Sad indeed isn't it.
Big Tudor
You are quite correct sir, notice I do not use C/Sgt(rtd) except when required in an argument with the missus (who is L/CPL(rtd)!!!!!!!)
As ever, Scroggs puts it most eloquently.
PP
Quite right, using it to advertise your flying school is completely professional and desireable, lets face it, who'd want to sign up for training under 2nd Officer Joe Bloggs?
Beamer
Sad indeed isn't it.
Big Tudor
You are quite correct sir, notice I do not use C/Sgt(rtd) except when required in an argument with the missus (who is L/CPL(rtd)!!!!!!!)
As ever, Scroggs puts it most eloquently.
PP
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
From: England
Evo7 is absolutely correct when he points out that in the UK physicians, who are commonly known as "doctors" are using a courtesy title when they use "Dr" as a title. Courtesy titles should not be used in other contexts (but often are, particularly by members of the BMA!) Most of the public actually believe their GPs have doctorates! In fact the majority have bachelor or first degrees. (nb a first degree should not be confused with a first-class degree.)
After first degrees, the higher UK degrees are Masters degrees, and then Doctorates. For these latter graduates, "Dr" is a real title.
Another oddity of the UK system is that the title "Professor" is changed to Professor Emeritus, or dropped altogether on retirement.
Under UK law, titles are not protected and you can use any title you choose. However, what is illegal is to obtain any advantage by using a title you are not entitled to use.
For "Dr" to be a real title in the UK you must have been awarded a doctorate by a University that has a charter to award degrees. In the UK I believe these charters can only be awarded by the Privy Council, so the University of PPRUNE degrees won't count. I don't believe there is any similar formal definition for the title "Capt" unless anyone else knows otherwise.
On my first trial lesson, I was surprised to be addressed as "Captain" by my instructor. I later learnt that this was his trademark, and not all students are addressed in the same way by their instructors. Mind you, he called me a few other things as well when I was trying to get the hang of landing. Oddly enough, he was a physicist with a PhD too.
After first degrees, the higher UK degrees are Masters degrees, and then Doctorates. For these latter graduates, "Dr" is a real title.
Another oddity of the UK system is that the title "Professor" is changed to Professor Emeritus, or dropped altogether on retirement.
Under UK law, titles are not protected and you can use any title you choose. However, what is illegal is to obtain any advantage by using a title you are not entitled to use.
For "Dr" to be a real title in the UK you must have been awarded a doctorate by a University that has a charter to award degrees. In the UK I believe these charters can only be awarded by the Privy Council, so the University of PPRUNE degrees won't count. I don't believe there is any similar formal definition for the title "Capt" unless anyone else knows otherwise.
On my first trial lesson, I was surprised to be addressed as "Captain" by my instructor. I later learnt that this was his trademark, and not all students are addressed in the same way by their instructors. Mind you, he called me a few other things as well when I was trying to get the hang of landing. Oddly enough, he was a physicist with a PhD too.
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
From: www.chinook-justice.org
And, oddly enough, he was the Captain, not you :-)
Does the restriction on using military rank apply to RAF? Is it a legal thing, or a "Gentleman's agreement" type thing? On the Chinook crash website we have a lot of people who have signed the petition as Flt Lt X etc. It is relevant in this case rather than ego-based though.
Does the restriction on using military rank apply to RAF? Is it a legal thing, or a "Gentleman's agreement" type thing? On the Chinook crash website we have a lot of people who have signed the petition as Flt Lt X etc. It is relevant in this case rather than ego-based though.
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,929
Likes: 6
From: Suffolk UK
Chocks,
if I remember rightly from my own retirement process, the right to retain your military title is spelled out in Queen's Regulations. It is the same for all three services. I have a feeling that it applies to all those of Captain (army) rank and above, not Major - but I may be wrong. As the modern general public seems not to value Service experience - and indeed, tends to regard ex-miltary officers as somewhat worthless snobs - it's very rare for anyone to use their military ranks after retirement, perhaps sadly.
if I remember rightly from my own retirement process, the right to retain your military title is spelled out in Queen's Regulations. It is the same for all three services. I have a feeling that it applies to all those of Captain (army) rank and above, not Major - but I may be wrong. As the modern general public seems not to value Service experience - and indeed, tends to regard ex-miltary officers as somewhat worthless snobs - it's very rare for anyone to use their military ranks after retirement, perhaps sadly.
The Oracle
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,902
Likes: 0
From: Naples, Florida U.S.A.
Trislander,
Not sure where your thread is going and if you received a full answer to your question. If your friend is looking to get a good understanding of the relationship of Captain and First Officer, and how airlines work, may I suggest the book, "<a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0671636030/customer-reviews/qid=1010620323/202-0853069-3813459" target="_blank">Fate Is the Hunter</a>", written by Ernest K. Gann. For anyone looking for an airline career, it's a must read. Do not bother renting the movie about the book (with the same title), since it has nothing to do with the book. (Typical Hollywood)
The title of Capt. in aviation should not be used outside of aviation. Also, it should not be used until earned.
There are schools that issue stripes to students, instructors, and examiners. That is something that I find in poor taste and I believe most of the industry does frown upon it too. Main reason is that the person wearing the stripes has not earned them. It does look funny to see a person hop out of a C-152 with three stripes on. Its like, "You have not made PIC in that aircraft yet?"
Anyone who wears their stripes outside of the aviation community does so for ego and ego does not belong in aviation.
I hope this answers your friend's question and to anyone looking for an aviation career, do read "<a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0671636030/customer-reviews/qid=1010620323/202-0853069-3813459" target="_blank">Fate Is the Hunter</a>", it was written in the 1950's and is still 100% relevant today.
Best of Luck,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
[Edited for Typo]
[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Naples Air Center, Inc. ]</p>
Not sure where your thread is going and if you received a full answer to your question. If your friend is looking to get a good understanding of the relationship of Captain and First Officer, and how airlines work, may I suggest the book, "<a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0671636030/customer-reviews/qid=1010620323/202-0853069-3813459" target="_blank">Fate Is the Hunter</a>", written by Ernest K. Gann. For anyone looking for an airline career, it's a must read. Do not bother renting the movie about the book (with the same title), since it has nothing to do with the book. (Typical Hollywood)
The title of Capt. in aviation should not be used outside of aviation. Also, it should not be used until earned.
There are schools that issue stripes to students, instructors, and examiners. That is something that I find in poor taste and I believe most of the industry does frown upon it too. Main reason is that the person wearing the stripes has not earned them. It does look funny to see a person hop out of a C-152 with three stripes on. Its like, "You have not made PIC in that aircraft yet?"
Anyone who wears their stripes outside of the aviation community does so for ego and ego does not belong in aviation.
I hope this answers your friend's question and to anyone looking for an aviation career, do read "<a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0671636030/customer-reviews/qid=1010620323/202-0853069-3813459" target="_blank">Fate Is the Hunter</a>", it was written in the 1950's and is still 100% relevant today.
Best of Luck,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
[Edited for Typo]
[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Naples Air Center, Inc. ]</p>
Guest
Posts: n/a
NAPLES.........Ha.. funny I was serously considering going to Naples(qoutes and all)
but if he can't even read, and respond to a simple question nicely(let alone correctly) then I think I will go to my second choice.
AGAIN NAPLES.......
my father is a capt and he isn't anything to do with aviation.. he is a nautical capt, in other words he sails boats.. and belive me he has earnt it.
I also think that there is noting wrong with wearing stipes.. it fills you with confidence, you have to go though such **** doing ATPL's it just makes you relise where you are going...
but I do think that we "wannabees" should be educated on the manerisim/airmanship of wearing them.. i.e not wearing them outside your aviation grounds....
mind you they are a bit of a bastard to get of pilot shirts mine are a nightmare, can understand why they dont bother..hahahha
[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Cheshire cat EGHH ]</p>
but if he can't even read, and respond to a simple question nicely(let alone correctly) then I think I will go to my second choice.
AGAIN NAPLES.......
my father is a capt and he isn't anything to do with aviation.. he is a nautical capt, in other words he sails boats.. and belive me he has earnt it.
I also think that there is noting wrong with wearing stipes.. it fills you with confidence, you have to go though such **** doing ATPL's it just makes you relise where you are going...
but I do think that we "wannabees" should be educated on the manerisim/airmanship of wearing them.. i.e not wearing them outside your aviation grounds....
mind you they are a bit of a bastard to get of pilot shirts mine are a nightmare, can understand why they dont bother..hahahha
[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Cheshire cat EGHH ]</p>
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver Island
Richard:
Not only is Fate is the Hunter a must read but any of Earnest Gann books are " MUST " reads for any pilot of any age or experience.
There has never been anyone that can match E. Gann for pure aviation writing skills.
Sadly Earnest passed away some years ago, he was a friend of mine and we last talked standing beside his Wing Derringer that he had just added a strike finder to, he was quite the expert with words and I would love to tell you what he thought about his strike finder. Trouble is the moderator would sensor it.
Anyhow you are right on about reading his books. My favourite is Blaze of Noon.
All the best with your school, you seem to have a good product by the support you receive here, and nothing beats satisfied customers.
..................
The two most dangerous words in aviation " WATCH THIS "
Not only is Fate is the Hunter a must read but any of Earnest Gann books are " MUST " reads for any pilot of any age or experience.
There has never been anyone that can match E. Gann for pure aviation writing skills.
Sadly Earnest passed away some years ago, he was a friend of mine and we last talked standing beside his Wing Derringer that he had just added a strike finder to, he was quite the expert with words and I would love to tell you what he thought about his strike finder. Trouble is the moderator would sensor it.
Anyhow you are right on about reading his books. My favourite is Blaze of Noon.
All the best with your school, you seem to have a good product by the support you receive here, and nothing beats satisfied customers.
..................
The two most dangerous words in aviation " WATCH THIS "
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: UK
Cat
I agree - great author all around, but it seems that his work isn't as famous in the aviation industry as it should be.
Will look into the other title
Cheshire cat
<<Ha.. funny I was serously considering going to Naples(qoutes and all)
but if he can't even read, and respond to a simple question nicely(let alone correctly) then I think I will go to my second choice. >>
???????? Don't see where you are going with this or what is meant by it? Alas it seems you might be the confused one! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Evo 7
<<'Doctor' is actually an honourific (much like calling the chap in the left hand seat Captain)>>
Agree whole heartedly - in the same manner lives are in each of a pilots and a doctors hands. However it sems that Doctors using their title in everyday life is regarded positively however to the contrary with a Captain!
I agree - great author all around, but it seems that his work isn't as famous in the aviation industry as it should be.
Will look into the other title
Cheshire cat
<<Ha.. funny I was serously considering going to Naples(qoutes and all)
but if he can't even read, and respond to a simple question nicely(let alone correctly) then I think I will go to my second choice. >>
???????? Don't see where you are going with this or what is meant by it? Alas it seems you might be the confused one! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Evo 7
<<'Doctor' is actually an honourific (much like calling the chap in the left hand seat Captain)>>
Agree whole heartedly - in the same manner lives are in each of a pilots and a doctors hands. However it sems that Doctors using their title in everyday life is regarded positively however to the contrary with a Captain!
The Oracle
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,902
Likes: 0
From: Naples, Florida U.S.A.
Cat Driver,
Hope you had a great Christmas.
I will never forget the Day he died. I was Jump Seating on an American Airlines flight from DFW to RSW when the news came across the LCARS. It was a sad and quiet flight for 2 hours which seemed like an eternity.
I never had a chance to meet the man, but a good friend (retired Delta Airlines) used to fly with him at the "un-named steamship company". I heard some interesting stories that never made the book and I am sure never will.
Take Care Chuck,
Richard
Hope you had a great Christmas.
I will never forget the Day he died. I was Jump Seating on an American Airlines flight from DFW to RSW when the news came across the LCARS. It was a sad and quiet flight for 2 hours which seemed like an eternity.
I never had a chance to meet the man, but a good friend (retired Delta Airlines) used to fly with him at the "un-named steamship company". I heard some interesting stories that never made the book and I am sure never will.
Take Care Chuck,
Richard
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver Island
Thanks Richard:
There are two people whom I look on as my bench marks in aviation.
Earnest Gann as an author and Bob Hoover as the ultimate smooth gifted pilot.
I would also like to make one more comment on the wannabe thread.
If we strive to support each other rather than denegrade each other aviation will be a better industry.
It is so easy to make judgements based on a little knowledge of those whom we are commenting on.
It requires class and character to say nothing or at least be careful when commenting. God knows I have made a complete ass##le of myself many times by giving my opinion without knowing the person whom I was denegrading, so I try to get to know them now. Then if I find out the person is truly a dork it ain't so bad commenting.
...................
The two most dangerous words in aviation " WATCH THIS "
There are two people whom I look on as my bench marks in aviation.
Earnest Gann as an author and Bob Hoover as the ultimate smooth gifted pilot.
I would also like to make one more comment on the wannabe thread.
If we strive to support each other rather than denegrade each other aviation will be a better industry.
It is so easy to make judgements based on a little knowledge of those whom we are commenting on.
It requires class and character to say nothing or at least be careful when commenting. God knows I have made a complete ass##le of myself many times by giving my opinion without knowing the person whom I was denegrading, so I try to get to know them now. Then if I find out the person is truly a dork it ain't so bad commenting.
...................
The two most dangerous words in aviation " WATCH THIS "
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,022
Likes: 170
From: uk
Scroggs - I'm still sure its Major and above but
the basic concept remains the same - bad form old
boy !
Have to agree with the chap from Naples - 'Fate
is the Hunter' is the one book to read if you are
about to embark on an aviation career - makes you
realise how easy we have it these days. (I do have
a nice first UK edition for sale with original
dustjacket if anyone's interested)
As a back up 'A Gift of Wings' by Richard Bach
is a nice collection of short articles written
before he went all spiritual.
the basic concept remains the same - bad form old
boy !
Have to agree with the chap from Naples - 'Fate
is the Hunter' is the one book to read if you are
about to embark on an aviation career - makes you
realise how easy we have it these days. (I do have
a nice first UK edition for sale with original
dustjacket if anyone's interested)
As a back up 'A Gift of Wings' by Richard Bach
is a nice collection of short articles written
before he went all spiritual.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
From: UK
I seem to remember a thread here on PPRUNE a few years ago. What happened was that the author had recently had a letter published in one of the broadsheets and the newspaper, on discovering he was an airline skipper, had changed his name at the end to 'Captain Fred Bloggs'
A week later he received a VERY snotty letter from an Army Lt. Colonel (retired) (or something like that) about the use of the title 'Captain' and how as an aircraft commander he was not entitled to use it etc etc. Quite an interesting thread ensued.
It only takes 2% of persons in any walk of life to give a bad name and it is t*ssers such as this Army Arse bring down the reputations of ex/military persons.
A week later he received a VERY snotty letter from an Army Lt. Colonel (retired) (or something like that) about the use of the title 'Captain' and how as an aircraft commander he was not entitled to use it etc etc. Quite an interesting thread ensued.
It only takes 2% of persons in any walk of life to give a bad name and it is t*ssers such as this Army Arse bring down the reputations of ex/military persons.
