conviction
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 62
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From: Glasgow, Scotland
conviction
Hi there,
I am a commercial pilot wannabee and next year I am starting my modular training up to ATPL level, what I am worrying about though is the fact that I am up in court for drink driving, the worst thing that could have probably happened to me as i think this will affect my flying(commercially), does anyone know if this will restrict me from becoming a airline pilot/instructor as it stays recorded for 10 years,
thanks
I am a commercial pilot wannabee and next year I am starting my modular training up to ATPL level, what I am worrying about though is the fact that I am up in court for drink driving, the worst thing that could have probably happened to me as i think this will affect my flying(commercially), does anyone know if this will restrict me from becoming a airline pilot/instructor as it stays recorded for 10 years,
thanks
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,430
Likes: 44
From: FL390
Not sure on the licence issue side, probably not, but on the application form for jobs it asks you to list convictions, maybe a tricky one !
This wasn't caused by a late night trip to a Christmas party was it ?
Endangering the lives of a few on the road is stupid but the lives of 300 holiday makers behind you is ...
[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: spitfire747 ]</p>
This wasn't caused by a late night trip to a Christmas party was it ?
Endangering the lives of a few on the road is stupid but the lives of 300 holiday makers behind you is ...
[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: spitfire747 ]</p>
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 221
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From: Among the clouds
This is purely hearsay, but I was told in the US that anything like that on your record would cause serious problems. That may be just in the U.S. though. Given the chosen career path, perhaps not the brightest idea to be drink driving.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 447
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From: wherever I lay my hat
I think I am right in saying that you would have to declare this to the FAA and a second conviction would/could result in enforcment action as they then consider you to be a risk. However I have flown with people who had drink drive convictions within the airline industry so on its own I doubt it will prevent you getting a job. I think though that you will find that given a similar level of experience to other applicants you would be less likely to be called for an interview than someone without a drink drive conviction. You may welll find that in the medium term you have made life vey difficult for yourself, there is no excuse for being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle.
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,502
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From: England
As a low time no experience pilot with thousands of similarly qualified co-applicants this conviction will see your CV in the bin faster than a Ryanair 737-200 taxi.
If you leave it off your details then you will be breaking your contract of employment and thus liable to instant dismissal for your entire career with that company should anyone ever blow the whistle.
The press would just love to come up with an expose of an airline pilots who was also a drunk driver.
Basically you are totally screwed and I would not bother trying to enter the profession particularly at this difficult time.
WWW
If you leave it off your details then you will be breaking your contract of employment and thus liable to instant dismissal for your entire career with that company should anyone ever blow the whistle.
The press would just love to come up with an expose of an airline pilots who was also a drunk driver.
Basically you are totally screwed and I would not bother trying to enter the profession particularly at this difficult time.
WWW
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 30
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From: Bournemouth, UK
A friend of mine was convicted of drink driving, the airline did not find out. He continued to fly, and drink! He fell asleep at the holding point and the F.O. could not wake him and so returned the aircraft to the ramp. He was sacked.
With no airline job he turned to light aircraft charter. Flying fish in from Scandinavia. Customs examined the fish one day and found it stuffed with drugs. He went to prison.
On his release from prison he continued to drink. Well now he is dead from liver damage. A great guy, but I nor anyone I know would trust a pilot with a drink drive conviction.
With no airline job he turned to light aircraft charter. Flying fish in from Scandinavia. Customs examined the fish one day and found it stuffed with drugs. He went to prison.
On his release from prison he continued to drink. Well now he is dead from liver damage. A great guy, but I nor anyone I know would trust a pilot with a drink drive conviction.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 156
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From: England
I agree that this is very bad and in no way condone drinking and driving, but if a guy gets done for having a pint and a half and gets punished once - well we all make mistakes sometimes, to punish someone for there entire life in this way is a little sad. Of course if they offend again then it shows signs of a problem.
I was an instructor in the states with a great guy, no drink problems, no drug problems, a great pilot. However one night he had a few drinks at a party and drove home. He got stopped and convicted. I can assure you it was a one off, a big mistake, and something he hadn't done before or since. The next month he got hired by American Eagle despite disclosing his conviction - and from then on he's been progressing up the ladder in that airline - and bloody good luck to him.
I presume from some of the replies above that no one has any speeding convictions, parking violations etc and of course no one has ever driven with more than a sherry trifle and half a wine gum down their necks.
Again I am in no way condoning this in any way just trying to look at slightly different perspectives.
I was an instructor in the states with a great guy, no drink problems, no drug problems, a great pilot. However one night he had a few drinks at a party and drove home. He got stopped and convicted. I can assure you it was a one off, a big mistake, and something he hadn't done before or since. The next month he got hired by American Eagle despite disclosing his conviction - and from then on he's been progressing up the ladder in that airline - and bloody good luck to him.
I presume from some of the replies above that no one has any speeding convictions, parking violations etc and of course no one has ever driven with more than a sherry trifle and half a wine gum down their necks.
Again I am in no way condoning this in any way just trying to look at slightly different perspectives.
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 144
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From: London, UK
The Greaser - sorry, there are no different perspectives here.
It's one thing to take risks with your own life, quite another if you're entrusted with potentially up to 400+ other people lives.
I don't care if a pilot parks on a double yellow line - I sure as hell do if they drink, and then drive.
One night you have a few drinks and drive home.
One night you have a few drinks and go to work.
What's the difference? NONE.
Yes, people make mistakes. And they are punished, be it fines/prison etc. And I'm afraid for drink drivers, never being a commercial pilot responsible for other people's lives is part of that. It's really that simple.
It's one thing to take risks with your own life, quite another if you're entrusted with potentially up to 400+ other people lives.
I don't care if a pilot parks on a double yellow line - I sure as hell do if they drink, and then drive.
One night you have a few drinks and drive home.
One night you have a few drinks and go to work.
What's the difference? NONE.
Yes, people make mistakes. And they are punished, be it fines/prison etc. And I'm afraid for drink drivers, never being a commercial pilot responsible for other people's lives is part of that. It's really that simple.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,517
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From: Vancouver Island
Captainmacuk:
It is not the end of your life nor does it mean the end of your career.
There just to many variables, such as if this was the only real dumb thing on your record and you face up to the fact that you made a very grave mistake and go on with your life and never repeat offend in any way, I am sure your career is salvageable.
I am willing to bet that a lot of those who pass judgement on others are also guilty of making the same mistakes, just didn't get caught.
Think about it, and all the best.
................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
It is not the end of your life nor does it mean the end of your career.
There just to many variables, such as if this was the only real dumb thing on your record and you face up to the fact that you made a very grave mistake and go on with your life and never repeat offend in any way, I am sure your career is salvageable.
I am willing to bet that a lot of those who pass judgement on others are also guilty of making the same mistakes, just didn't get caught.
Think about it, and all the best.
................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Moderator
Joined: Jun 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,901
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From: MAN. UK.
To put a little fact on all the judgmental opinions expressed above, the law as I understand it is this.
If convicted, you are legally obliged to declare the conviction to a potential employer if so requested to do so. Failiure, as mentioned above is falsifying evidence and would lead to summary dismissal.
Your conviction will be granted a period before it is known to be 'spent'. After this period you are legally entitled under the rehabilitation of offenders act 1974 to withhold information about the conviction as it is deemed to have become 'spent'and therefore effectively 'null and void'. However the police will still have it on their databases for life. They of course are not able to divulge that to anyone, (Unless a private detective greases the right palms of course).
Thus you will have to declare it on a job application, and if it was only for a minor 'one off' transgression your best plan is to put 'Discuss at interview' in the box related to convictions in the hope that your other qualities shine through enough to get you through the front door. Then you have the opportunity to tell the facts of the case and downplay the whole thing.
As far as the CAA are concerned, the medical form no longer asks for information about convictions. It used to, but I noticed the last one didn't. Whether they still require it for initial issue I don't know. Generally, I have found the CAA to take the view that if the crime is for an offence unlikely to be repeated in the air, then they take no action. Thus, for example crimes leading to violence on the ground such as night club punch ups or marital disputes are not immediatly blocked as the stimulus to reach such levels of anger are unlikely to be provided at work. (Mind you they havn't seen me and Greek handling agents!!)A drink drive conviction is not likely to be a problem if it is truly a one off, but a history would certainly raise interest from the CAA.
In times of dire pilot shortages I have even known of a pilot being approached in prison to see if he would like a job on release. (No not me!)
It all comes down to supply and demand. The bigger operators will take a stiff attitude to anything that deems to 'let the squadron down'! So you may find it hard to make the larger jet operators. But at the end of the day if you fit in and the company like you, then all this will slip into history over time.
Generally, I would say don't be too down hearted, but in the present economic climate I woudn't advise anyone to spend vast amounts on training until the economy picks up.
Incidentally I know of one First Officer that joined a UK charter operator with a fresh drink drive conviction, witheld it, flew for a year avoiding the need for using hire cars, and has now gone on to another airline. So it can be done, but I woudn't recommend it as if you are found out the 'internal network' between UK operators will ensure that the African market is about the only place you'll be likely to get a job.
Good luck in the mean time.
If convicted, you are legally obliged to declare the conviction to a potential employer if so requested to do so. Failiure, as mentioned above is falsifying evidence and would lead to summary dismissal.
Your conviction will be granted a period before it is known to be 'spent'. After this period you are legally entitled under the rehabilitation of offenders act 1974 to withhold information about the conviction as it is deemed to have become 'spent'and therefore effectively 'null and void'. However the police will still have it on their databases for life. They of course are not able to divulge that to anyone, (Unless a private detective greases the right palms of course).
Thus you will have to declare it on a job application, and if it was only for a minor 'one off' transgression your best plan is to put 'Discuss at interview' in the box related to convictions in the hope that your other qualities shine through enough to get you through the front door. Then you have the opportunity to tell the facts of the case and downplay the whole thing.
As far as the CAA are concerned, the medical form no longer asks for information about convictions. It used to, but I noticed the last one didn't. Whether they still require it for initial issue I don't know. Generally, I have found the CAA to take the view that if the crime is for an offence unlikely to be repeated in the air, then they take no action. Thus, for example crimes leading to violence on the ground such as night club punch ups or marital disputes are not immediatly blocked as the stimulus to reach such levels of anger are unlikely to be provided at work. (Mind you they havn't seen me and Greek handling agents!!)A drink drive conviction is not likely to be a problem if it is truly a one off, but a history would certainly raise interest from the CAA.
In times of dire pilot shortages I have even known of a pilot being approached in prison to see if he would like a job on release. (No not me!)
It all comes down to supply and demand. The bigger operators will take a stiff attitude to anything that deems to 'let the squadron down'! So you may find it hard to make the larger jet operators. But at the end of the day if you fit in and the company like you, then all this will slip into history over time.
Generally, I would say don't be too down hearted, but in the present economic climate I woudn't advise anyone to spend vast amounts on training until the economy picks up.
Incidentally I know of one First Officer that joined a UK charter operator with a fresh drink drive conviction, witheld it, flew for a year avoiding the need for using hire cars, and has now gone on to another airline. So it can be done, but I woudn't recommend it as if you are found out the 'internal network' between UK operators will ensure that the African market is about the only place you'll be likely to get a job.
Good luck in the mean time.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,780
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From: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Wow metsys...you should get a job with the faa...anyway, one drink drive in the states will not render you unemployable, just slightly less competetive...they will find out, as employers are required to access the national driver register to obtain driving records, in europe, not sure what mechanisms are in place...don't think it is a major worry...write to BALPA the pilot's union..maybe they could offer some insight, also any reputable flight school should be able to offer information regarding this query....water under the bridge...next time take a cab....good luckWow metsys
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 355
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Well mate, you’ve got the predictable responses from the ‘I’m all right Jack’ brigade.
Sad thing is that they do have a bit of a point, which however, might have been put a bit more sympathetically.
I for one offer you my genuine sympathy. I suspect you do have a problem at the moment if you want to progress an Airline career due to the current situation.
This is a young mans/girls game and we have all made mistakes. Sadly you made probably the worst one possible other than flying under the influence.
If this WAS a genuine one-off never, to be repeated mistake, then instructing is perhaps not ruled out.
It is unlikely that you will be come across the Spanish inquisition when applying for instructor’s jobs.
But, if you are inclined to take risks with drink and mechanical devices then stay well out of our skies ….for good!!
BTW I suggest you change your profile entry under interests from ‘drinking and flying’!!!!!
Having said all that you are a bloody stupid pratt!!(but I'm sure you already know that!).
Good luck
Sad thing is that they do have a bit of a point, which however, might have been put a bit more sympathetically.
I for one offer you my genuine sympathy. I suspect you do have a problem at the moment if you want to progress an Airline career due to the current situation.
This is a young mans/girls game and we have all made mistakes. Sadly you made probably the worst one possible other than flying under the influence.
If this WAS a genuine one-off never, to be repeated mistake, then instructing is perhaps not ruled out.
It is unlikely that you will be come across the Spanish inquisition when applying for instructor’s jobs.
But, if you are inclined to take risks with drink and mechanical devices then stay well out of our skies ….for good!!
BTW I suggest you change your profile entry under interests from ‘drinking and flying’!!!!!
Having said all that you are a bloody stupid pratt!!(but I'm sure you already know that!).
Good luck
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
Posts: 4,910
Likes: 184
From: Duit On Mon Dei
#1. Learn from your mistake.
#2. Be honest about it.
#3. Don't ever do it again.
It may slow you down a fraction or it may not. Who honestly knows? I have mates in Oz that have spent drink drive convictions (and serious ones at that) that are flying for Qantas, Virgin Blue, (ex) Ansett and various respectable charter operators.
When in court be as remorseful as possible. And mean it.
Just remember rules #1 to #3.
#2. Be honest about it.
#3. Don't ever do it again.
It may slow you down a fraction or it may not. Who honestly knows? I have mates in Oz that have spent drink drive convictions (and serious ones at that) that are flying for Qantas, Virgin Blue, (ex) Ansett and various respectable charter operators.
When in court be as remorseful as possible. And mean it.
Just remember rules #1 to #3.
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,502
Likes: 1,845
From: England
And how are you going to get to work for the next couple of years? Walk?
Someone will notice. Someone will guess. Rumours will abound. Somone will be a real drink driving Nazi. They will shout their mouth off. A mate of a mate who works in the local rag will hear. He will check the court briefs. He will compile a lovely little expose to shock the local populace. He will put it on file for a slow news day. That day will come.
"Drunk Driver Flies A 60 Ton Jet Over YOUR House EVERY Day!"
"Drink Drive Convict At Control Of Holiday Plane!"
"Hello This Is Your Captain Speaking - Hic!"
Etc. etc. etc.
For a small regional operator such press coverage could lead to a temporary drop in sales of say 10%, causing a temporary cash flow problem, causing the company to go under in these marginal times.
You'd be the worst kind of liability.
Sorry, I don't wish you ill. I don't have a big problem personally with being a little bit over the limit. Hell, just over half of all pedestrians killed in "Alchol related accidents" were over the limit themselves.. And I know of far more people in their 20's who drive having taken E, Speed or Cannabis and driven that I do who drink and society does nothing about that.
WWW
Someone will notice. Someone will guess. Rumours will abound. Somone will be a real drink driving Nazi. They will shout their mouth off. A mate of a mate who works in the local rag will hear. He will check the court briefs. He will compile a lovely little expose to shock the local populace. He will put it on file for a slow news day. That day will come.
"Drunk Driver Flies A 60 Ton Jet Over YOUR House EVERY Day!"
"Drink Drive Convict At Control Of Holiday Plane!"
"Hello This Is Your Captain Speaking - Hic!"
Etc. etc. etc.
For a small regional operator such press coverage could lead to a temporary drop in sales of say 10%, causing a temporary cash flow problem, causing the company to go under in these marginal times.
You'd be the worst kind of liability.
Sorry, I don't wish you ill. I don't have a big problem personally with being a little bit over the limit. Hell, just over half of all pedestrians killed in "Alchol related accidents" were over the limit themselves.. And I know of far more people in their 20's who drive having taken E, Speed or Cannabis and driven that I do who drink and society does nothing about that.
WWW
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
Likes: 9
From: Blighty
You do have a problem with this one, but there are others in your position who do have flying jobs. The current situaition will not be condusive to getting a job with your conviction, but I predict in a couple of years we will be in the same situation as we were after the Gulf War when all training stopped. In 1993 when things picked up, all you needed to get a job was a licence and a pulse!
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
From: UK
I have no idea how badly your future career will be affected. What I'm not going to do is thumb my nose and tell you what an idiot you've been, you won't need to be told that anyway.
Everybody makes mistakes, not everybody admits to them.
Just learn by it.
Everybody makes mistakes, not everybody admits to them.
Just learn by it.
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,929
Likes: 6
From: Suffolk UK
I have to agree that your chances of employment just now are probably not good, for all the reasons mentioned by others. Yes, you will hear of many examples of people who are currently employed with a DD conviction in their past, but unless you know their full history and the context of their employment you are unable to judge the relevance to your situation. I would say that, as a beginner, you are royally stuffed in the current market.
If you are as sensible as you sound, you will put this behind you and attack another career until such time as the market is hungry enough for new pilots to ignore something that by then you will have shown was an out-of-character episode that has not been repeated, and that you have conducted your life utterly responsibly in the intervening years.
There are many examples out there of people who have rebuilt their lives after similar (and bigger) mistakes, but it will take time, and aviation just now is not likely to be the place to serve out your rehabilitation. Sorry.
If you are as sensible as you sound, you will put this behind you and attack another career until such time as the market is hungry enough for new pilots to ignore something that by then you will have shown was an out-of-character episode that has not been repeated, and that you have conducted your life utterly responsibly in the intervening years.
There are many examples out there of people who have rebuilt their lives after similar (and bigger) mistakes, but it will take time, and aviation just now is not likely to be the place to serve out your rehabilitation. Sorry.
