4forces going down?
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4forces going down?
Hmm, just heard that 4forces are on the way down too. Ouch, 2 big schools in flames.
My heart goes to those students in the thick of it.
Can't get details yet, it's a rumour but a fairly big one i admit, but will try, promise.
[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: Pugzi ]
My heart goes to those students in the thick of it.
Can't get details yet, it's a rumour but a fairly big one i admit, but will try, promise.
[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: Pugzi ]
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How come all these schools are dissappearing?
I considered PPSC and 4Forces. They appeared 3rd and 4th on my list - now I only have 2 to consider!
I wonder if we can expect to see a few mergers soon.
[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: Superpilot ]
I considered PPSC and 4Forces. They appeared 3rd and 4th on my list - now I only have 2 to consider!
I wonder if we can expect to see a few mergers soon.
[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: Superpilot ]
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I spoke to them recently and the receptionist told me that they will be moving their opertations from near Heathrow to Cranfield.
She did a really good job in describing the new course they are starting soon, and also sent me a brochure.
I hope they are not closing, but if they are then its a real shame.
She did a really good job in describing the new course they are starting soon, and also sent me a brochure.
I hope they are not closing, but if they are then its a real shame.
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Apparently 4Forces went bust on Tuesday last week with PPSC following on Friday. looks like the brown stuff hit a pretty big fan last week for some people. My heart goes out to all concearned particularly the instructors who are now faced with the dole queue and not just a bit more cash and a time set back!!
BJ
BJ
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Nobody has gone unscathed it seems.
Appartently Oxford has laid of a few folks as well.
No doubt some of you would be happy to see Oxford demise, but think of the people involved.
Anyone got an idea why everyone is up a certain creek without a paddle.
Appartently Oxford has laid of a few folks as well.
No doubt some of you would be happy to see Oxford demise, but think of the people involved.
Anyone got an idea why everyone is up a certain creek without a paddle.
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Why is everyone up the creek you ask!
Well ,
VAT on commercial training
No NVQ relief
ATPL not recodnised as a vocational qualification
The price of UK training
The price of fuel
JAA
The CAA’s farcical charges and hurdles
TOO FEW STUDENTS!
Just a few reasons why training in the UK is a hazardous venture for any commercial training organisation.
Just how many students can afford the costs and inherent risks these days?
Sad times!
Well ,
VAT on commercial training
No NVQ relief
ATPL not recodnised as a vocational qualification
The price of UK training
The price of fuel
JAA
The CAA’s farcical charges and hurdles
TOO FEW STUDENTS!
Just a few reasons why training in the UK is a hazardous venture for any commercial training organisation.
Just how many students can afford the costs and inherent risks these days?
Sad times!
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AMS
As someone whose been kicking around aeroplanes for a while I have to point out that a major problem is prices going down and down - in relative terms.
Had a dig through a load of old paperwork and pulled out some numbers.
Now I really shopped around to do my licences and, apart from a single dreadful day at an IR school I walked away, from it went as smoothly as anyone could dare wish for. First time passes for everything.
Sim + instruction was £60 per hour (but free after hours.}
Cessna 310 was £250 per hour .
Now I'm sure you can match that somewhere in the country right now. Problem is this was in 1988 and a brand new BMW 325 cost £7,300.
Whenever anyone has set out to do pilot training they've choked on the price. My grand dad's first flying lesson was in 1935 and it cost a fiver. Fantastic!! Except he earned £200 - per year .
You'll never believe any of this until you view these pages in a few years time. As an experienced airline type you'll just shake your head as you read the 2011 version of this thread.
The real price of flying just keeps on going down - along with profitability, and investment.
[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]
As someone whose been kicking around aeroplanes for a while I have to point out that a major problem is prices going down and down - in relative terms.
Had a dig through a load of old paperwork and pulled out some numbers.
Now I really shopped around to do my licences and, apart from a single dreadful day at an IR school I walked away, from it went as smoothly as anyone could dare wish for. First time passes for everything.
Sim + instruction was £60 per hour (but free after hours.}
Cessna 310 was £250 per hour .
Now I'm sure you can match that somewhere in the country right now. Problem is this was in 1988 and a brand new BMW 325 cost £7,300.
Whenever anyone has set out to do pilot training they've choked on the price. My grand dad's first flying lesson was in 1935 and it cost a fiver. Fantastic!! Except he earned £200 - per year .
You'll never believe any of this until you view these pages in a few years time. As an experienced airline type you'll just shake your head as you read the 2011 version of this thread.
The real price of flying just keeps on going down - along with profitability, and investment.
[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]
The price of flying may have gone down but with the loss of the BCPL, there is no middle ground for aspiring instructors or hour builders. The JAR process is expensive and largely irrelevant contributing nothing to either flight safety or intra-European standardisation. What have we got the ICAO for anyway? I was looking back at some pre-JAR flying magazines recently and the price of the BCPL made me weep!
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The level of investment required by these
organisations to cope with JAR and the transition to JAR would not have helped
them ...
Higher costs
Less Students studying from home
More competition (4 Forces)
=> problem
Its clear that one of these organisations
could resurrect into a market with less competition?
[ 14 August 2001: Message edited by: RVR800 ]
organisations to cope with JAR and the transition to JAR would not have helped
them ...
Higher costs
Less Students studying from home
More competition (4 Forces)
=> problem
Its clear that one of these organisations
could resurrect into a market with less competition?
[ 14 August 2001: Message edited by: RVR800 ]
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Guess I've just lost a few grand and wasted a whole load of time!
As well as the issues mentioned by Clear Prop, isn't it about time the airline industry as a whole looked at getting their act together, regarding training and enabling recruits to enter the industry in a more structured and 'professional' manner.
As well as the issues mentioned by Clear Prop, isn't it about time the airline industry as a whole looked at getting their act together, regarding training and enabling recruits to enter the industry in a more structured and 'professional' manner.
In 1991 British Aerospace were charging for a full ab inito ATPL course £58,500. In 2001 they were charging £45,500. Thats £13,000 less plus ten years inflation...
I am frankly though amazed to see both one fo the oldest and the newest schools going to the wall.
As has always been the advice - pay by credit card and pay in installments if at all possible.
Cheers,
WWW
I am frankly though amazed to see both one fo the oldest and the newest schools going to the wall.
As has always been the advice - pay by credit card and pay in installments if at all possible.
Cheers,
WWW
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Yes,
But bear in mind both these schools derived their income from the modular market.
Whilst it may well be possible to quote reductions in the cost of training for integrated training, thanks to BAe moving to Spain, the cost of obtaining a CPL for modular self sponsored students has rocketed in the past two years.
Remember when you could do the good old CAA ground school for around a grand and in only a few months? It now costs about 4K and can take up to a year!
Remember NVQ?.. that saved you 23% of your training costs!
And a BCPL, ..now there was a bargain!
And along comes JAA!!
It is now VERY much more expensive (around £15k more) and in just two years!!!!! That must put training out of reach for a load of self funded folk. So, less students for more schools.. (supply and demand and all that)
And another thing, there's now not much more to pay for an integrated course in sunny Spain.. is there? So more students dumping modular as an option perhaps??
[ 14 August 2001: Message edited by: clear prop!!! ]
But bear in mind both these schools derived their income from the modular market.
Whilst it may well be possible to quote reductions in the cost of training for integrated training, thanks to BAe moving to Spain, the cost of obtaining a CPL for modular self sponsored students has rocketed in the past two years.
Remember when you could do the good old CAA ground school for around a grand and in only a few months? It now costs about 4K and can take up to a year!
Remember NVQ?.. that saved you 23% of your training costs!
And a BCPL, ..now there was a bargain!
And along comes JAA!!
It is now VERY much more expensive (around £15k more) and in just two years!!!!! That must put training out of reach for a load of self funded folk. So, less students for more schools.. (supply and demand and all that)
And another thing, there's now not much more to pay for an integrated course in sunny Spain.. is there? So more students dumping modular as an option perhaps??
[ 14 August 2001: Message edited by: clear prop!!! ]
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It seems a large number of people are holding the structure of JAR modular training to be largely responsible for the collapse of 4 Forces and PPSC and I would be hard pressed to disagree.
However I can't help remembering the only advert I've ever seen from 4 Forces advertising for Flight Instructors about a year ago I think.
One of the requirements was that you should have a positive and enthusiastic approach to JAR implimentation, or something like that.
I know it doesn't help those who have lost money but as for 4 Forces themselves I can only look at them as Collaborators who have just been bitten by the Roman lions they were telling the Christians to feed.
However I can't help remembering the only advert I've ever seen from 4 Forces advertising for Flight Instructors about a year ago I think.
One of the requirements was that you should have a positive and enthusiastic approach to JAR implimentation, or something like that.
I know it doesn't help those who have lost money but as for 4 Forces themselves I can only look at them as Collaborators who have just been bitten by the Roman lions they were telling the Christians to feed.
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That was a blast from the past SKYYACHT.
I lost £6000 in unpaid salary on that little debacle, you may remember the Instructors worked on for about three months without pay to help the students!
John Standen ex Met Instructor SECOAT
ex Met Instructor PPSC
[email protected]
I lost £6000 in unpaid salary on that little debacle, you may remember the Instructors worked on for about three months without pay to help the students!
John Standen ex Met Instructor SECOAT
ex Met Instructor PPSC
[email protected]
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JUST SPOKEN TO 4 FORCES THIS EVENING . IN THE MIDDLE OF MY ATPL THEORY . THEY ARE AT CRANFIELD NOW STILL BOOKING ME IN FOR SEPTEMBER GROUNDSCHOOL . THEY SAY EVERYTHING IS OK .!!!!!! IT IS STILL THE SAME INSTRUCTORS THERE . THERE ARE EITHER SOME DISTURBING RUMOURS OR THEY ARE REALLY GOOD LYERS .!!!! 