Hour building in US...You need a Visa !
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WOT I WORKED OUT IS:
You need (and always did need) a US student visa to attend a 'school' there, whether it was for accountancy, aviation, fan-dancing, hairdressing, history or muff-diving. The nature of the training is irrelevant but, if the place you attend is recognised as a 'school', as defined by the USA, you must have a student visa.
Most of the FTO's patronised by non-Americans are not 'schools', so you do not need a student visa to train there. However, some, such as Naples, are 'schools', as defined by the USA, and you will need a student visa to go there, hence the big wind-up from that direction. Not that Americans need much help in being wound-up but it seems that commonsense is now prevailing.
As anyone with half a brain had worked out, Terry O'Wrist or Mohammed Jihad never need to acquire flying, or any, knowledge and skill in the USA, or UK, in order to commit atrocities there. You could acquire any knowledge and skill in any number of countries and then enter the USA as a tourist, prior to buying an aircraft, boat or shotgun (all legally!).
Pity that PPRuNe panders to the persecution of pilots, when we/it should be fighting for our rights..........
You need (and always did need) a US student visa to attend a 'school' there, whether it was for accountancy, aviation, fan-dancing, hairdressing, history or muff-diving. The nature of the training is irrelevant but, if the place you attend is recognised as a 'school', as defined by the USA, you must have a student visa.
Most of the FTO's patronised by non-Americans are not 'schools', so you do not need a student visa to train there. However, some, such as Naples, are 'schools', as defined by the USA, and you will need a student visa to go there, hence the big wind-up from that direction. Not that Americans need much help in being wound-up but it seems that commonsense is now prevailing.
As anyone with half a brain had worked out, Terry O'Wrist or Mohammed Jihad never need to acquire flying, or any, knowledge and skill in the USA, or UK, in order to commit atrocities there. You could acquire any knowledge and skill in any number of countries and then enter the USA as a tourist, prior to buying an aircraft, boat or shotgun (all legally!).
Pity that PPRuNe panders to the persecution of pilots, when we/it should be fighting for our rights..........
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When I spoke to the U.S. Embassy, which I suggest you do too at 0207 499 9000, they took the time to explain the law to me.
The place that you train is irrelevant. If it is on U.S. soil and it involves training in a contraption with wings, you must have a visa. It does not matter if it is with Flight Safety International in Florida or from an eskimo teaching out of his igloo in Alaska. If you are flight training you must have a visa.
Better yet, look at the thread from Naples Air Centre. The information in there was the same as what the U.S. Embassy in London relayed to me.
TTF
The place that you train is irrelevant. If it is on U.S. soil and it involves training in a contraption with wings, you must have a visa. It does not matter if it is with Flight Safety International in Florida or from an eskimo teaching out of his igloo in Alaska. If you are flight training you must have a visa.
Better yet, look at the thread from Naples Air Centre. The information in there was the same as what the U.S. Embassy in London relayed to me.
TTF
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Well, it would appear at this moment in time there is still much confusion. My B-2 Visa has arrived and so im all set to go. I was panicking when i rang the information line to see if my Visa had been processed. My understanding was it took 10 days to process, and when i rang on the 20th Sep i was told they had not even started processing Visa applications recieved on the 10th Sep (mine arrived on the 11th !!)The term Process though is being abused slightly!. The very helpful guy at the Embassy in London explained that the 10 days is basically how long it sits in the queue. It takes about 30-60 mins to actually process the application and stamp the passport with the Visa, and pop it in an envelope back to you. Only thing that would really hold it up are criminal convictions.
At the end of the day as my old friend GoneWest told me;do you want to 'wing' it, and dabble with being turned around at immigration with 'Deported' stamped in your passport, or fill in a few forms, give them £46.00, wait 2 weeks, and let them scribble over a page in your passport.....better safe than sorry me thinks. TTF's entry into the US turned out OK, but what if his supervisor had come back and said NO. It's down to the man on the gate. If he say No then it's back on the next plane to blighty ! !
At the end of the day as my old friend GoneWest told me;do you want to 'wing' it, and dabble with being turned around at immigration with 'Deported' stamped in your passport, or fill in a few forms, give them £46.00, wait 2 weeks, and let them scribble over a page in your passport.....better safe than sorry me thinks. TTF's entry into the US turned out OK, but what if his supervisor had come back and said NO. It's down to the man on the gate. If he say No then it's back on the next plane to blighty ! !
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Thanks "Avro".
Seems life may be getting even harder - this, from AOPA..
Seems life may be getting even harder - this, from AOPA..
BILL REQUIRES MORE SCREENING OF FOREIGN STUDENTS
The Senate Commerce Committee last week passed an amendment to the Aviation Security Improvement Act that would require background checks for all foreign flight school candidates regardless of the weight class of aircraft they wish to learn to fly.
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The screening what Gone West is talking about is what is happening now with the ISEAS system which is an interim measure to the SEVIS system that comes into effect in January.
As with anything, it will take some time to impliment, however, once in place I believe that it will all run as smoothly as the past procedures. I understand that the Embassy is still trying to catch up from all the changes but feel that they should have things back to normal pretty soon.
As with anything, it will take some time to impliment, however, once in place I believe that it will all run as smoothly as the past procedures. I understand that the Embassy is still trying to catch up from all the changes but feel that they should have things back to normal pretty soon.
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I have been looking more closely at schools in Florida to see what is being offered for training.
So far OFT and OBA told me to just enter the country and tell the officer that I am here on holiday and not to mention flying at all. IFTA says they will send me paperwork that will get me though Immigration. When I ask about Visas they all tell me to opposite of what the U.S. Embassy told me.
This really makes me wonder what is going on?
TTF
So far OFT and OBA told me to just enter the country and tell the officer that I am here on holiday and not to mention flying at all. IFTA says they will send me paperwork that will get me though Immigration. When I ask about Visas they all tell me to opposite of what the U.S. Embassy told me.
This really makes me wonder what is going on?
TTF
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Makes you wonder why OFT have just bought out a US Part 141 school - in an attempt to transfer the visa approval that the school held into their own name.
They know, damned well, that you need a visa - they just can't give you one at the moment, so they lie to you in the hope that you will still try it.
Some people get away with it - some don't....and they get arrested and held until the aircraft they arrived on is ready to take them straight back.
And of course they have an immigration officer stamp in their passport - that says (words to the effect of) "Entry to the United States refused".
They know, damned well, that you need a visa - they just can't give you one at the moment, so they lie to you in the hope that you will still try it.
Some people get away with it - some don't....and they get arrested and held until the aircraft they arrived on is ready to take them straight back.
And of course they have an immigration officer stamp in their passport - that says (words to the effect of) "Entry to the United States refused".
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Time To Fly,
When you spoke to the Embassy did you feel they actually understood the principles of only an organisation being acredited as a school being able to provide visas and that only a school with Part141 approval could be accredited in that way ?
Did you think maybe you weren't quite getting through to them or that you were and they were just dismissing the argument anyway ?
I just wondered what it was that made you dismiss IFTA's argument which you had previously accepted ?
Have you actually followed it up with IFTA since speaking to the Embassy ?
Has anyone who has taken up or is thinking of taking up the IFTA offer actually seen the letter of explanation they received from the INS ? Personally I would rather have a copy of this to present at the Port of Entry than just a letter from the school.
When you spoke to the Embassy did you feel they actually understood the principles of only an organisation being acredited as a school being able to provide visas and that only a school with Part141 approval could be accredited in that way ?
Did you think maybe you weren't quite getting through to them or that you were and they were just dismissing the argument anyway ?
I just wondered what it was that made you dismiss IFTA's argument which you had previously accepted ?
Have you actually followed it up with IFTA since speaking to the Embassy ?
Has anyone who has taken up or is thinking of taking up the IFTA offer actually seen the letter of explanation they received from the INS ? Personally I would rather have a copy of this to present at the Port of Entry than just a letter from the school.
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"I" in the sky
If you look back further in this post I actually called for this, however, nothing was posted or sent. You would think that if there was a special offer by the INS then this letter would be posted all over the joint by those schools who do not have visa approval and therefore advocate that you do not need one.
One would then question "if" there was such a letter with a "special offer" why some repuatable and successful flight schools have closed down. I know in one instance a school that was consistently full, providing excellent training, but refused to put their students in jeopardy at the Immigration gate.
I ask again to those schools (IFTA for one) that talk the talk re a special offer, let's see this from the INS and we can put this discussion to bed! That's if you have it in writing
One would then question "if" there was such a letter with a "special offer" why some repuatable and successful flight schools have closed down. I know in one instance a school that was consistently full, providing excellent training, but refused to put their students in jeopardy at the Immigration gate.
I ask again to those schools (IFTA for one) that talk the talk re a special offer, let's see this from the INS and we can put this discussion to bed! That's if you have it in writing
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'I' in the sky
You asked if I thought the U.S. Embassy understood the rules. It is their job to understand the rules. They were excellent explaining exactly what I would need to enter the U.S.
If it involves an airplane and you are training for any licence you need to have a visa. Let me quote what I said before:
That seems very clear to me. Why not give the chaps a jingle at 0207 499 9000 and you tell us if you think they, as you put it, "actually understood the principles".
TTF
You asked if I thought the U.S. Embassy understood the rules. It is their job to understand the rules. They were excellent explaining exactly what I would need to enter the U.S.
If it involves an airplane and you are training for any licence you need to have a visa. Let me quote what I said before:
If it is on U.S. soil and it involves training in a contraption with wings, you must have a visa. It does not matter if it is with Flight Safety International in Florida or from an eskimo teaching out of his igloo in Alaska. If you are flight training you must have a visa.
TTF
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Time to Fly.
I know it is their job to understand the rules and I wasn't trying to be funny. However I do know from experience that depending on what level of officialdom you are dealing with they can tend to use stock answers to what they have previously considered stock situations. If you are trying to present a set of circumstances which are, or at least you feel maybe slightly different then you really have to drive it home before they are likely to budge from their stock answer.
This statement is not meant as an accusation of incompetence or any other measure of disrespect, just an observation of dealing with organisations who have to deal with large numbers of apparently similar enquiries.
Accepting that the embassy is correct then it does seem that IFTA have either been misinformed by INS at Miami or that they have blatantly published a piece of grossly dishonest misinformation. Surely something somewhere has to give. That is why I asked if any customers or potential customers had actually been able to see anything which IFTA had received in writing from the INS.
A similar parallel occurred back in 1997/1998 at a school in Florida teaching primarily CAA licences. Instructors and students were all assured by the owner/CFI that it was perfectly legal for students to for CAA PPL licences to fly solo without the normal signoffs from FAA instructors as they were training for CAA licences. The instructors were very uncomfortable with the situation as they believed that the only way a student without a licence could legally fly an N reg aircraft in US airspace was as a FAA student pilot with the appropriate sign offs. There was no seperate provision as far as they could see for different types of training. The owner/CFI however insisted that when he had set up CAA training courses at Flight Safety International previously the FAA had granted an exemption. It was difficult to see that someone would blatantly operate illegaly in this matter yet when the **** eventually hit the fan and people needed evidence of said exemptions, yes you guessed it, there was nothing.
It is also possible to get different interpretations of the rules from within the same organisation. eg It is the FAA's job to know the FARs and yet I have known different FSDOs give different interpretations of the same regulation. Obviously only one could be correct yet it is their job to know the rules.
So it is still feasible that there could be a difference in interpretation of the INS rules between the INS in Miami and the Embassy in London.
The main point I am sure you will appreciate by now is that it would be unwise to take an assurance from the school at face value and to insist on a copy of their communications with the INS.
I know it is their job to understand the rules and I wasn't trying to be funny. However I do know from experience that depending on what level of officialdom you are dealing with they can tend to use stock answers to what they have previously considered stock situations. If you are trying to present a set of circumstances which are, or at least you feel maybe slightly different then you really have to drive it home before they are likely to budge from their stock answer.
This statement is not meant as an accusation of incompetence or any other measure of disrespect, just an observation of dealing with organisations who have to deal with large numbers of apparently similar enquiries.
Accepting that the embassy is correct then it does seem that IFTA have either been misinformed by INS at Miami or that they have blatantly published a piece of grossly dishonest misinformation. Surely something somewhere has to give. That is why I asked if any customers or potential customers had actually been able to see anything which IFTA had received in writing from the INS.
A similar parallel occurred back in 1997/1998 at a school in Florida teaching primarily CAA licences. Instructors and students were all assured by the owner/CFI that it was perfectly legal for students to for CAA PPL licences to fly solo without the normal signoffs from FAA instructors as they were training for CAA licences. The instructors were very uncomfortable with the situation as they believed that the only way a student without a licence could legally fly an N reg aircraft in US airspace was as a FAA student pilot with the appropriate sign offs. There was no seperate provision as far as they could see for different types of training. The owner/CFI however insisted that when he had set up CAA training courses at Flight Safety International previously the FAA had granted an exemption. It was difficult to see that someone would blatantly operate illegaly in this matter yet when the **** eventually hit the fan and people needed evidence of said exemptions, yes you guessed it, there was nothing.
It is also possible to get different interpretations of the rules from within the same organisation. eg It is the FAA's job to know the FARs and yet I have known different FSDOs give different interpretations of the same regulation. Obviously only one could be correct yet it is their job to know the rules.
So it is still feasible that there could be a difference in interpretation of the INS rules between the INS in Miami and the Embassy in London.
The main point I am sure you will appreciate by now is that it would be unwise to take an assurance from the school at face value and to insist on a copy of their communications with the INS.
Last edited by 'I' in the sky; 9th Oct 2002 at 13:47.
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However - following on from the posting above - it is interesting to note that the guy who says he has an exemption from current INS regulations (but will not publish documentation to prove it) is the same guy that set up the CAA courses at Flight Safety and said he had an exemption from the FAA about needing to follow Federal Regulations (but had no documentation to prove it).
Both stories - same guy. Sounds a little fisher to...sorry...sounds a little fishy, to me.
Both stories - same guy. Sounds a little fisher to...sorry...sounds a little fishy, to me.
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Same one indeed.
It might be interesting to copy the page from his website to the INS in Miami and to the embassy, just to seek clarification you understand.
Hmmm, guess what I'm doing tomorrow.
It might be interesting to copy the page from his website to the INS in Miami and to the embassy, just to seek clarification you understand.
Hmmm, guess what I'm doing tomorrow.
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Just to advise the visa regulations have changed again. From 11 September 2002 all applicants for F, J, & M Visa’s have to be registered on a new database called ISEAS. The sponsoring flight school does this. As the database is new and not fully implemented yet, as an interim arrangement until 11 October 2002, the flight school could email the relevant consular (in my case London) and they would add your name to the database for the flight school. From 12 September 2002, it had to be completed by the flight school. According to the flight school I want to attend, Immigration and Naturalization Service in Florida are estimating it will be another 7 to 10 days before they are on-line. In the meantime, they still can’t all see the song sheet in my view.
I’ve had 2 rejections entered in my passport so-far. The flight school sent my I-20 to me on 28 August and it will be another 10 days before I can be registered on the database. That’s 2 months to get nowhere. If my experience is typical, you should allow at least 3 months for the visa process, maybe longer. Anyone in the UK got a US visa for flight training in the last 2 months?
I’ve had 2 rejections entered in my passport so-far. The flight school sent my I-20 to me on 28 August and it will be another 10 days before I can be registered on the database. That’s 2 months to get nowhere. If my experience is typical, you should allow at least 3 months for the visa process, maybe longer. Anyone in the UK got a US visa for flight training in the last 2 months?
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3db
Sorry to hear about your experience; luckily for others this is not a norm.
From my contact in London US Embassy, they are almost caught up with this new program. The total process from receipt of the paperwork is 14 days (not just business days). This is as long as all runs smoothly.
The ISEAS caught everyone by surprise as they seemed to forget to let the schools know However, now that everything is known again, all is running smoothly
From my contact in London US Embassy, they are almost caught up with this new program. The total process from receipt of the paperwork is 14 days (not just business days). This is as long as all runs smoothly.
The ISEAS caught everyone by surprise as they seemed to forget to let the schools know
However, now that everything is known again, all is running smoothly
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I sent my application forms off to the embassy on the 12th September and got my passport back last Friday (11th). I don't know if this length of time is normal, as I had fallen foul of a flight school telling me I didn't need a visa so ended up being turned back from Orlando back in June, so I might have warranted extra checking.
Also, the embassy website wasn't updated with the information about ISEAS until the 13th; and it was purely by luck that I noticed the new information but that was about two weeks after I had sent in my application. So I had to quickly get the school to send an email to the embassy to ensure my application didn't get refused because of that.
Also, the embassy website wasn't updated with the information about ISEAS until the 13th; and it was purely by luck that I noticed the new information but that was about two weeks after I had sent in my application. So I had to quickly get the school to send an email to the embassy to ensure my application didn't get refused because of that.
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Facts Not Fiction pls & AndyGB
Thanks for your replies. Seems I have either been very unlucky, maybe the US don't want to see me anymore
or maybe I should change flight schools. I'll see how it pans out.
Thanks again.
Thanks for your replies. Seems I have either been very unlucky, maybe the US don't want to see me anymore
or maybe I should change flight schools. I'll see how it pans out.Thanks again.
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When you do get your visa check the expiry date. I thought mine had been cocked up because it expired 4 days after I planned on arriving. I thought it had to be valid all the time you are training but apparently not, see the email below.
Facts not fiction - is your contact at the embassy in the IT operations side of things ?
From: London-Consular
To: 'Andy'
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: M1 Visa Error
The period of validity of your visa relates to the period of time during which you, as the holder may travel to the U.S. and apply for admission at a Port of Entry (POE); it does not determine the length of stay. This is a decision made by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) at the POE.
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 11:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: M1 Visa Error
Hello
I recently applied for an M1 visa from yourselves and have just received my passport back with the visa inside.
Having checked the visa there is an error, in that the expiration date is down to be the 12th of November, which is just 4 days after I arrive in the US for a 4 week course.
I believe the error has occured when the dates were taken from the I-20 form provided by my flight school. In the answers to question 5 they have put that I will report to them not later than the 11/11/02 and will complete my studies no later than the 12/11/02, these being in american date format (mm/dd/yy), not british.
Facts not fiction - is your contact at the embassy in the IT operations side of things ?
From: London-Consular
To: 'Andy'
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: M1 Visa Error
The period of validity of your visa relates to the period of time during which you, as the holder may travel to the U.S. and apply for admission at a Port of Entry (POE); it does not determine the length of stay. This is a decision made by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) at the POE.
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 11:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: M1 Visa Error
Hello
I recently applied for an M1 visa from yourselves and have just received my passport back with the visa inside.
Having checked the visa there is an error, in that the expiration date is down to be the 12th of November, which is just 4 days after I arrive in the US for a 4 week course.
I believe the error has occured when the dates were taken from the I-20 form provided by my flight school. In the answers to question 5 they have put that I will report to them not later than the 11/11/02 and will complete my studies no later than the 12/11/02, these being in american date format (mm/dd/yy), not british.
Last edited by AndyGB; 16th Oct 2002 at 22:11.
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AndyGB
I am confused as to your question re IT, however, can offer the following advice:
All students that I am aware of have received from Immigration on entering the US, a visa valid until one month after the course completion date listed on the I-20M-N form (yellow M1 visa application form). This date, that is stamped in their passport and on the I-94 (White form) entry form, is the legal date that the student may stay until for training in the US. Effectively, the separated I-94 stub becomes their legal proof to be eligible to stay and train in the US.
This extra month allows for any overun of courses.
As for your particular situation, I am certain that as you had been turned around at the border once, you were thoroughly checked out leading to the longer turn around time for your Visa. ON top of this, Summer prooves to be extremely busy for Visa applications and therefore generally take longer.
All students that I am aware of have received from Immigration on entering the US, a visa valid until one month after the course completion date listed on the I-20M-N form (yellow M1 visa application form). This date, that is stamped in their passport and on the I-94 (White form) entry form, is the legal date that the student may stay until for training in the US. Effectively, the separated I-94 stub becomes their legal proof to be eligible to stay and train in the US.
This extra month allows for any overun of courses.
As for your particular situation, I am certain that as you had been turned around at the border once, you were thoroughly checked out leading to the longer turn around time for your Visa. ON top of this, Summer prooves to be extremely busy for Visa applications and therefore generally take longer.