Are airlines still employing grads from smaller schools?
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The truth is nobody knows.
Open age discrimination would be illegal, but it certainly happens.
Though I do know someone in their mid-40s who got hired by Ryanair around 12 months ago or so. There was also a guy on one of Ryanair's mentored programme in his early 50s. No idea whether he is still doing the course/ has finished it/ got hired though.
Open age discrimination would be illegal, but it certainly happens.
Though I do know someone in their mid-40s who got hired by Ryanair around 12 months ago or so. There was also a guy on one of Ryanair's mentored programme in his early 50s. No idea whether he is still doing the course/ has finished it/ got hired though.
I'd find it surprising if they were heavily biased against older candidates to be honest. Hiring younger cadets on funded programmes makes sense to ensure you get a decent payback on your investment. But if Ryanair aren't paying for anything up to and including type rating, I don't see that it costs them much if you only end up having a short career.
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Reviving this thread on the basis of what I've learned over the last couple of months, in case it's of any use to other aspiring pilots.
I've been doing a fair bit of research, including visiting flight schools (integrated and modular) and been to three Pilot Careers Lives shows - Dublin, London and the Flight Crew Futures show. Technically the last one was for qualified pilots only, but I don't think it upset anybody to have a student pilot in attendance and it was probably the most informative of the three.
One of the key things I've learned is that there is definitely a hiring route where airlines go directly to integrated schools. Both Tui and EasyJet told me that over the last year they did their newly qualified pilot hiring that way. I've heard people point out that the EasyJet MPL programme with CAE isn't as exclusive as it is sometimes made out, but it appears to me that even if that route doesn't fill all of their need, they're going to the integrated schools to fill the gap.
Personally I think this is a huge consideration in the integrated vs modular debate. This is often simplified to the idea that the integrated schools are lying when they say they can guarantee you a job with a big airline. I've never heard any school make that kind of claim, but they do all claim to have relationships with airlines that can help get you that role. From what I've learned that does seem to be true. It seems to be similar to the Russell Group of universities. It isn't necessarily true that you'll get a better degree or learn more there than at another university, but HR departments love to take shortcuts and you're better off being at one of the institutes they are targeting.
On the other hand, Ryanair does seem to be a strong hiring proposition for UK based pilots. Most interestingly I spoke to a couple of their feeder schools who told me that their message from Ryanair was "get us UK based EASA pilots". I get the impression there is going to be (or is already) a decent sized vacuum there which is perfect for a UK modular student.
My own conclusion from all of this is that there are two paths to take for modular students. Either sign up with an integrated school for a "modular" package after hour building, so that your CV gets on the list the next time EasyJet or Tui (and maybe others) decide they need another 100 pilots. Alternatively, go full modular and get dual CAA/EASA. Since the integrated schools don't offer dual licensing I think you have to pick one or the other.
I've been doing a fair bit of research, including visiting flight schools (integrated and modular) and been to three Pilot Careers Lives shows - Dublin, London and the Flight Crew Futures show. Technically the last one was for qualified pilots only, but I don't think it upset anybody to have a student pilot in attendance and it was probably the most informative of the three.
One of the key things I've learned is that there is definitely a hiring route where airlines go directly to integrated schools. Both Tui and EasyJet told me that over the last year they did their newly qualified pilot hiring that way. I've heard people point out that the EasyJet MPL programme with CAE isn't as exclusive as it is sometimes made out, but it appears to me that even if that route doesn't fill all of their need, they're going to the integrated schools to fill the gap.
Personally I think this is a huge consideration in the integrated vs modular debate. This is often simplified to the idea that the integrated schools are lying when they say they can guarantee you a job with a big airline. I've never heard any school make that kind of claim, but they do all claim to have relationships with airlines that can help get you that role. From what I've learned that does seem to be true. It seems to be similar to the Russell Group of universities. It isn't necessarily true that you'll get a better degree or learn more there than at another university, but HR departments love to take shortcuts and you're better off being at one of the institutes they are targeting.
On the other hand, Ryanair does seem to be a strong hiring proposition for UK based pilots. Most interestingly I spoke to a couple of their feeder schools who told me that their message from Ryanair was "get us UK based EASA pilots". I get the impression there is going to be (or is already) a decent sized vacuum there which is perfect for a UK modular student.
My own conclusion from all of this is that there are two paths to take for modular students. Either sign up with an integrated school for a "modular" package after hour building, so that your CV gets on the list the next time EasyJet or Tui (and maybe others) decide they need another 100 pilots. Alternatively, go full modular and get dual CAA/EASA. Since the integrated schools don't offer dual licensing I think you have to pick one or the other.
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I'd have to defer to you on that one. I know FTE Jerez offer dual, but only to integrated students. Looking at the Leading Edge website I get the impression the same might be true with them, I can't really tell one way or the other with L3.
If you go modular but still want a 'big name' on your CV, you can still shop around and end up with a good looking CV. Lets say you get your PPL at school A, ATPL by distance learning at school B, hour build at school C, IRR at school D, CBIR at school E and MEP at school F, finishing with 180 hours... looks bad right? Not if you go back to school B to get your 5 hour MEIR add on and 15 hour SECPL. Your CV will look like this:
PPL at school A
ATPL theory, CPL/MEIR at school B
PPL at school A
ATPL theory, CPL/MEIR at school B
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I agree, and this is pretty much the path I'm currently looking at for myself! Not so much to get a big name school on my CV, I'm not convinced a school name is the biggest factor when my CV gets compared to somebody else's (within limits of course). My reasoning is more to make sure my CV gets in front of the right people in the first place.
The difficulty then is that if you show up to an integrated school asking for a 5 hour MEIR add on and 15 hour SECPL, even if they do offer those options, they may not include their special "employability servicing package" and you might not be included when an airline calls up and asks for a stack of CVs. I get the impression that the minimum you need in order to get your hand stamped is a block modular package.
It's frustrating that the airlines allow a limited set of schools to effectively gatekeep access to them, allowing those schools to charge a premium. But it's actually very common across many industries, such as finance, healthcare, engineering. They're effectively outsourcing a part of their HR function to those schools, trusting them to filter out the candidates and send a better quality group to first interview. Considering the 30,000 applications BA had for their academy (albeit that was for zero experience) I can see why this approach might be preferable to opening up recruitment to every fATPL in the UK.
The difficulty then is that if you show up to an integrated school asking for a 5 hour MEIR add on and 15 hour SECPL, even if they do offer those options, they may not include their special "employability servicing package" and you might not be included when an airline calls up and asks for a stack of CVs. I get the impression that the minimum you need in order to get your hand stamped is a block modular package.
It's frustrating that the airlines allow a limited set of schools to effectively gatekeep access to them, allowing those schools to charge a premium. But it's actually very common across many industries, such as finance, healthcare, engineering. They're effectively outsourcing a part of their HR function to those schools, trusting them to filter out the candidates and send a better quality group to first interview. Considering the 30,000 applications BA had for their academy (albeit that was for zero experience) I can see why this approach might be preferable to opening up recruitment to every fATPL in the UK.
I favour the approach of first getting a job with an airline then applying to be a pilot. It's more of a long-game strategy but would suit someone starting from scratch with a 5 year plan. Mind you there are plenty of airlines who don't care where you got your licence.
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@jedro A factor influencing your preception may be that it is largely the integrated ATOs that have stands at Pilot Careers Live etc and that being the case you are going to hear the message that airlines prefer to recruit integrated studes, as Mandy Rice-Davies would say, "they would say that, wouldn't they?". You get a more balanced view if you can talk to the airline recruiters themselves. Andy O'Shea in particular, ex Head of Training of Ryanair, spent several years saying that Ryanair hired from both integrated and modular without preference and was emphatic that there was no measurable difference in output quality between the two. Easyjet's Cadet of the Year a couple of years ago was a modular student, once one of mine. They have a long history of recruiting modular when their integrated pipelines (inevitably) start to fail, as we hear the latest CAE effort is doing now. BA are quite clear that they will accept applications equally from integrated and modular students (despite the advertising from big ATOs which suggests otherwise) and have in fact been VERY selective about which integrated ATOs they use for their 60 fully sponsored cadets for reasons which will be obvious to those that follow these forums. JET2 also have no preference. Integrated ATOs spend lots of money on advertising.
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My comments were based primarily on what I was told by airlines, not the schools. Tui in particular said that they hired exclusively from a "specific set of schools" (which I've learned is typically code for the integrated schools) in 2023. They said they could change that approach in the future, but I didn't get the impression that was likely.
EasyJet were very honest with me about the fact that the MPL doesn't fulfil all of their requirements, but that they took the remainder directly from specific schools. It's possible that they will create a new application route for newly qualified pilots on their website that all modular students can apply to, but it seems to me this would severely undermine their heavy push towards the MPL so I doubt it will happen. I'm not sure I would describe their MPL route as failing, just falling short of demand. What's more interesting to me is that when it does fall short, they appear to be turning to the integrated schools first to fill the gap. As for failure of the integrated pipeline, if it fails because it couldn't supply enough pilots to meet demand, that seems like happy days for integrated students! Failure due to financial condition of those schools is a different debate entirely.
BA are an obvious exception to this and I've already talked about Ryanair being a great option for UK modular students. Jet2 I'm not sure about, I can't see any application route on their website for pilots with fewer than 500 hours experience, other than the apprentice scheme (currently closed). I'm sure I've checked a few times over the last few months and never seen a newly qualified pilot application there. I may be mistaken. It's good to hear that they have no preference for integrated students over modular, but if they're not taking applications it doesn't do me much good!
EasyJet were very honest with me about the fact that the MPL doesn't fulfil all of their requirements, but that they took the remainder directly from specific schools. It's possible that they will create a new application route for newly qualified pilots on their website that all modular students can apply to, but it seems to me this would severely undermine their heavy push towards the MPL so I doubt it will happen. I'm not sure I would describe their MPL route as failing, just falling short of demand. What's more interesting to me is that when it does fall short, they appear to be turning to the integrated schools first to fill the gap. As for failure of the integrated pipeline, if it fails because it couldn't supply enough pilots to meet demand, that seems like happy days for integrated students! Failure due to financial condition of those schools is a different debate entirely.
BA are an obvious exception to this and I've already talked about Ryanair being a great option for UK modular students. Jet2 I'm not sure about, I can't see any application route on their website for pilots with fewer than 500 hours experience, other than the apprentice scheme (currently closed). I'm sure I've checked a few times over the last few months and never seen a newly qualified pilot application there. I may be mistaken. It's good to hear that they have no preference for integrated students over modular, but if they're not taking applications it doesn't do me much good!
