Please, somebody put me off flying…
I’ve always tried to encourage anyone who wants to fly for a living, but….
I’ve worked for four flying clubs, only one of which now exists, three corporate operators, none of which are still flying, and seven airlines, only two of which are still in business. I’ve been made redundant from airlines twice, and each time spent most of the family’s savings to live while searching for another job, and now find myself at the age of sixty two either getting up at three in the morning to go to work, or landing at four in the morning to finish work. I get to see horrible grimy parts of airports that passengers never see and spend hours waiting in the night for ambulifts and crew busses that are horribly late or never turn up. I might or might not work for a major uk tour operator whose management don’t give a stuff that any of it’s pilots or cabin crews who were flying on the morning that free bidding for winter leave opened cannot book a single weekend day off between October this year and March 2024.
Of the thirty eight years and almost twenty thousand hours of my flying career so far, it would be fair to say that the most enjoyable were the seven years at the beginning that I spent instructing for a decent flying club that treated it’s staff well, and was prepared to help finance advanced instructor ratings, so kept instructing interesting. All the rest was just done for money.
Drive the train, have a life that your family can enjoy, earn good money in a secure job protected by proper union recognition and which has a decent and secure pension scheme. Fly for fun, instruct as a hobby.
“Why do we still wish to fly commercially ?” Because we have to make our own mistakes, and people only give us the advice that we want to hear…
I’ve worked for four flying clubs, only one of which now exists, three corporate operators, none of which are still flying, and seven airlines, only two of which are still in business. I’ve been made redundant from airlines twice, and each time spent most of the family’s savings to live while searching for another job, and now find myself at the age of sixty two either getting up at three in the morning to go to work, or landing at four in the morning to finish work. I get to see horrible grimy parts of airports that passengers never see and spend hours waiting in the night for ambulifts and crew busses that are horribly late or never turn up. I might or might not work for a major uk tour operator whose management don’t give a stuff that any of it’s pilots or cabin crews who were flying on the morning that free bidding for winter leave opened cannot book a single weekend day off between October this year and March 2024.
Of the thirty eight years and almost twenty thousand hours of my flying career so far, it would be fair to say that the most enjoyable were the seven years at the beginning that I spent instructing for a decent flying club that treated it’s staff well, and was prepared to help finance advanced instructor ratings, so kept instructing interesting. All the rest was just done for money.
Drive the train, have a life that your family can enjoy, earn good money in a secure job protected by proper union recognition and which has a decent and secure pension scheme. Fly for fun, instruct as a hobby.
“Why do we still wish to fly commercially ?” Because we have to make our own mistakes, and people only give us the advice that we want to hear…
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I’ve always tried to encourage anyone who wants to fly for a living, but….
I’ve worked for four flying clubs, only one of which now exists, three corporate operators, none of which are still flying, and seven airlines, only two of which are still in business. I’ve been made redundant from airlines twice, and each time spent most of the family’s savings to live while searching for another job, and now find myself at the age of sixty two either getting up at three in the morning to go to work, or landing at four in the morning to finish work. I get to see horrible grimy parts of airports that passengers never see and spend hours waiting in the night for ambulifts and crew busses that are horribly late or never turn up. I might or might not work for a major uk tour operator whose management don’t give a stuff that any of it’s pilots or cabin crews who were flying on the morning that free bidding for winter leave opened cannot book a single weekend day off between October this year and March 2024.
Of the thirty eight years and almost twenty thousand hours of my flying career so far, it would be fair to say that the most enjoyable were the seven years at the beginning that I spent instructing for a decent flying club that treated it’s staff well, and was prepared to help finance advanced instructor ratings, so kept instructing interesting. All the rest was just done for money.
Drive the train, have a life that your family can enjoy, earn good money in a secure job protected by proper union recognition and which has a decent and secure pension scheme. Fly for fun, instruct as a hobby.
“Why do we still wish to fly commercially ?” Because we have to make our own mistakes, and people only give us the advice that we want to hear…
I’ve worked for four flying clubs, only one of which now exists, three corporate operators, none of which are still flying, and seven airlines, only two of which are still in business. I’ve been made redundant from airlines twice, and each time spent most of the family’s savings to live while searching for another job, and now find myself at the age of sixty two either getting up at three in the morning to go to work, or landing at four in the morning to finish work. I get to see horrible grimy parts of airports that passengers never see and spend hours waiting in the night for ambulifts and crew busses that are horribly late or never turn up. I might or might not work for a major uk tour operator whose management don’t give a stuff that any of it’s pilots or cabin crews who were flying on the morning that free bidding for winter leave opened cannot book a single weekend day off between October this year and March 2024.
Of the thirty eight years and almost twenty thousand hours of my flying career so far, it would be fair to say that the most enjoyable were the seven years at the beginning that I spent instructing for a decent flying club that treated it’s staff well, and was prepared to help finance advanced instructor ratings, so kept instructing interesting. All the rest was just done for money.
Drive the train, have a life that your family can enjoy, earn good money in a secure job protected by proper union recognition and which has a decent and secure pension scheme. Fly for fun, instruct as a hobby.
“Why do we still wish to fly commercially ?” Because we have to make our own mistakes, and people only give us the advice that we want to hear…
I will say that compared to the “aviation dream” sold on social media, pprune is a far healthier balance - although of course it does on occasion swing too far the other way.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
While my path into a jet is significantly different to the usual paths in the UK/EU, there was still a lot of risk involved.
It did involve moving several thousand kilometers from home, and after a while, 10,000km from home. So, to that end, you do miss a lot of family and friends time.
When I was converting my Aus ATPL to a JAA (now EASA) one, one of our teachers went around the class asking what we were looking for in a job.
All of my class mates said "jet job". I said "stable roster". Our teacher paused, pointed at me, and said to the class "listen to her, she knows".
It's very true, a stable roster is a precious thing. It gives you some semblance of control of your life.
I really love my job, it's fun, rewarding, different and challenging (it's not an airline job). However, I am really looking forward to going part time in September.
It did involve moving several thousand kilometers from home, and after a while, 10,000km from home. So, to that end, you do miss a lot of family and friends time.
When I was converting my Aus ATPL to a JAA (now EASA) one, one of our teachers went around the class asking what we were looking for in a job.
All of my class mates said "jet job". I said "stable roster". Our teacher paused, pointed at me, and said to the class "listen to her, she knows".
It's very true, a stable roster is a precious thing. It gives you some semblance of control of your life.
I really love my job, it's fun, rewarding, different and challenging (it's not an airline job). However, I am really looking forward to going part time in September.
.......either getting up at three in the morning to go to work, or landing at four in the morning to finish work. I get to see horrible grimy parts of airports that passengers never see and spend hours waiting in the night for ambulifts and crew busses that are horribly late or never turn up.
.......whose management don’t give a stuff that any of it’s pilots or cabin crews............cannot book a single weekend day off between October this year and March 2024.
Add to that; idiots on guard frequency, slots and tech problems, or waiting for fuel, catering or baggage to get to your aircraft.
I was recently on a train where the next driver was late, (or called out to cover illness), but that was a one-off in all the many years that I have used trains. I have never seen airline type delays on trains, nor ever seen trains waiting at platforms for 30-50 minutes waiting for an ambulift or suchlike.
If I could swap jobs with the OP, I would jump at the chance.
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Personally, I think the country is heading for a recession, the increase in mortgage rates will hit people hard and given how much of the economy is based on consumer spending, I think the economy is vulnerable.
If a franchised Train Operating Company goes into administration then the DfT takes over and runs it, with an airline there's no such guarantee. I don't know if BALPA actively work to find positions in other companies for redundant pilots but I'm fairly certain ASLEF did when DB Cargo let a load of freight drivers go several years back.
If a franchised Train Operating Company goes into administration then the DfT takes over and runs it, with an airline there's no such guarantee. I don't know if BALPA actively work to find positions in other companies for redundant pilots but I'm fairly certain ASLEF did when DB Cargo let a load of freight drivers go several years back.
I was recently on a train where the next driver was late, (or called out to cover illness), but that was a one-off in all the many years that I have used trains. I have never seen airline type delays on trains, nor ever seen trains waiting at platforms for 30-50 minutes waiting for an ambulift or suchlike.
None of the aircraft I've been on have stopped suddenly in the middle of nowhere for hours on end with nobody knowing whats going on. No standing for hours on end, either
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I'm aware that some airlines are very seniority-based when it comes to rostering, however there are those with fixed rosters which are presumably more predictable. That being said, I've seen quite a few posters on here express the view that the airlines with fixed rosters aren't sustainable when it comes to work-life balance. I presume there's also factors such as how far you can be moved either way from your booked start and finish times and how strong your local BALPA reps are when it comes to encouraging the company to uphold rostering agreements?
One thing which surprises me is that BALPA doesn't seem to control voluntary overtime. Pretty much all train driving voluntary overtime is dependent on an ASLEF sanction allowing it being in place, working a rest day without a sanction in place is viewed in the same league as crossing a picket line. The most recently signed rest-day working agreement means that the drivers at the company concerned earn a similar amount to that which a Jet2 captain does when working a day off.
One thing which surprises me is that BALPA doesn't seem to control voluntary overtime. Pretty much all train driving voluntary overtime is dependent on an ASLEF sanction allowing it being in place, working a rest day without a sanction in place is viewed in the same league as crossing a picket line. The most recently signed rest-day working agreement means that the drivers at the company concerned earn a similar amount to that which a Jet2 captain does when working a day off.
Originally Posted by speedbird91;11446295...
Each night I get to go home, see my wife, attend parties (most of the time)...
Please, somebody… put me off flying!
Please, somebody… put me off flying!
As a married man I would have long talks about how the wife sees a life without her husband at home. If she’s not well informed and hesitates to take on the challenge, don’t even try. It’s a guaranteed divorce. If she’s all in and backing you up... you _might_ avoid divorce.
Bracebrace is right.
You might enjoy flying into New York or the Maldives initially - even just for a 22 hour "bullet". Or flying to Malaga, Alicante, Sharm El Sheik or Larnaca and back every day.
But your wife and family will only notice your absence, You will get home, sleep all morning, cut the grass, have an evening at home while ironing your shirts and packing ready for the next trip, or going to bed at 1900 trying to sleep ready to wake up at 0300 the next morning.
At the very least you will miss your children growing up and learning to ride their bikes etc.
You might enjoy flying into New York or the Maldives initially - even just for a 22 hour "bullet". Or flying to Malaga, Alicante, Sharm El Sheik or Larnaca and back every day.
But your wife and family will only notice your absence, You will get home, sleep all morning, cut the grass, have an evening at home while ironing your shirts and packing ready for the next trip, or going to bed at 1900 trying to sleep ready to wake up at 0300 the next morning.
At the very least you will miss your children growing up and learning to ride their bikes etc.
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Trainee train driver ( ex guard, internal hire ) checking in here at the age of 31.
For the benefit of the OP, I passed the ATPL theory ( distance learning with Caledonian ) this year alongside the train driving theory so to do it as a fully qualified driver with experience should be achievable!
I'm taking on the wise words of rudestuff and others on this forum, paying as I go. Single Engine CBIR > SE CPL and then see what the job market is like!
We and others may be starting later than others but we can look back in 30 years and maybe take pride in the fact we experienced other industries
As ex long haul cabin crew I actually find the shift work at my particular rail depot as fatiguing as the flying. We finished at 1am Sunday morning, had Sunday day off and then in at 4am this morning.
I'd regret not going for it and there's nothing wrong with personal development and a backup plan.
For the benefit of the OP, I passed the ATPL theory ( distance learning with Caledonian ) this year alongside the train driving theory so to do it as a fully qualified driver with experience should be achievable!
I'm taking on the wise words of rudestuff and others on this forum, paying as I go. Single Engine CBIR > SE CPL and then see what the job market is like!
We and others may be starting later than others but we can look back in 30 years and maybe take pride in the fact we experienced other industries
As ex long haul cabin crew I actually find the shift work at my particular rail depot as fatiguing as the flying. We finished at 1am Sunday morning, had Sunday day off and then in at 4am this morning.
I'd regret not going for it and there's nothing wrong with personal development and a backup plan.
I'm in a somewhat similar situation and had the same trouble trying to decide if this was a path I wanted to go down.
In the end I decided to go for it, I'd rather finish all the training and never get a job that to never have done it and always be thinking what if. I could always go back to my old career.
Also don't forget that pprune tends to paint a broadly negative picture of the job and the industry. if you loved your job and we're happy, why would you come on a forum to tell everyone about it? Much more likely to happen with someone who isn't having a positive experience.
Do it. Go modular, get a class 1 medical and your PPL as a starting point. Getting that far may even just "scratch the itch".
In the end I decided to go for it, I'd rather finish all the training and never get a job that to never have done it and always be thinking what if. I could always go back to my old career.
Also don't forget that pprune tends to paint a broadly negative picture of the job and the industry. if you loved your job and we're happy, why would you come on a forum to tell everyone about it? Much more likely to happen with someone who isn't having a positive experience.
Do it. Go modular, get a class 1 medical and your PPL as a starting point. Getting that far may even just "scratch the itch".
Pilots are whingers, me included, but a lot of us wouldn’t want to do anything else. One question you need to ask yourself is do you really enjoy flying. I mean really enjoy the art of flying and doing the good old pilot sh*t. If you don’t then maybe you will end up disillusioned as some of the posters obviously are. Whatever you decide I wish you good luck in your decision! A trainer once said to me “get the biggest, shiniest type rating as early as you can”. You can always downgrade if it doesn’t suit you.
ps
Go modular, NEVER, not ever, pay large sums up front!!
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Bracebrace is right.
You might enjoy flying into New York or the Maldives initially - even just for a 22 hour "bullet". Or flying to Malaga, Alicante, Sharm El Sheik or Larnaca and back every day.
But your wife and family will only notice your absence, You will get home, sleep all morning, cut the grass, have an evening at home while ironing your shirts and packing ready for the next trip, or going to bed at 1900 trying to sleep ready to wake up at 0300 the next morning.
At the very least you will miss your children growing up and learning to ride their bikes etc.
You might enjoy flying into New York or the Maldives initially - even just for a 22 hour "bullet". Or flying to Malaga, Alicante, Sharm El Sheik or Larnaca and back every day.
But your wife and family will only notice your absence, You will get home, sleep all morning, cut the grass, have an evening at home while ironing your shirts and packing ready for the next trip, or going to bed at 1900 trying to sleep ready to wake up at 0300 the next morning.
At the very least you will miss your children growing up and learning to ride their bikes etc.
Probably the best counter to that is Mrguy...which is something I've thought about doing anyway... go for the training and then see how things develop as I go on. Sure there's potential of lost money but at least it's an attempt.
Ah wish this had come up in my much younger single days!!!
Yes, for sure, do a PPL, and maybe one of those Simulator rides you see advertised to experience flying a 'real' jet airliner. And of course, get your Class One medical before doing anything else.
For what it's worth, I changed career into flying at age 35. I had left my previous career and was working freelance in the same industry.
I started flying training thinking that if at any stage, I wasn't good enough, or didn't pass the exams or tests, I could continue working freelance in my previous career.
So, it was not super high-risk for me, and I had saved up enough to pay for my training, (nothing like the amount it costs today), and was able to pay the mortgage and house bills while I was full-time flight training. As it happened, I passed all the exams and tests - and I then got an airline job on a very basic old 19 seat turbo prop, flying post and parcels at night, and worked up from there.
So, it is possible. But, I did miss my children growing up and then divorce happened. So by all means go for it, but your family must be 100% behind it and you must all understand how much of you; your money, your time, your weekends, Christmases, and birthdays, it is going to hoover up. Your family will become your wife and children, with you being a visitor, occasionally present.
I vividly remember our No. 1 telling us once that her 9 year old son burst into tears early on Christmas morning when he saw her in uniform - realising that yet again, Mummy would not be at home on Christmas day. (And don't assume that you can take Christmas day - or any day over Christmas - off). Not a chance !
For what it's worth, I changed career into flying at age 35. I had left my previous career and was working freelance in the same industry.
I started flying training thinking that if at any stage, I wasn't good enough, or didn't pass the exams or tests, I could continue working freelance in my previous career.
So, it was not super high-risk for me, and I had saved up enough to pay for my training, (nothing like the amount it costs today), and was able to pay the mortgage and house bills while I was full-time flight training. As it happened, I passed all the exams and tests - and I then got an airline job on a very basic old 19 seat turbo prop, flying post and parcels at night, and worked up from there.
So, it is possible. But, I did miss my children growing up and then divorce happened. So by all means go for it, but your family must be 100% behind it and you must all understand how much of you; your money, your time, your weekends, Christmases, and birthdays, it is going to hoover up. Your family will become your wife and children, with you being a visitor, occasionally present.
I vividly remember our No. 1 telling us once that her 9 year old son burst into tears early on Christmas morning when he saw her in uniform - realising that yet again, Mummy would not be at home on Christmas day. (And don't assume that you can take Christmas day - or any day over Christmas - off). Not a chance !
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I vividly remember our No. 1 telling us once that her 9 year old son burst into tears early on Christmas morning when he saw her in uniform - realising that yet again, Mummy would not be at home on Christmas day. (And don't assume that you can take Christmas day - or any day over Christmas - off). Not a chance !
I've already had medical and currently hour building but I think my personal reality will be get a CPL (and maybe FI) just for the learning and then fly for fun!
Ah hopefully the OP is in a better position to chase the dream!
Last edited by onionabroad; 23rd Jun 2023 at 09:01.
I was very lucky to learn to fly in 1959 and then to join a longhaul airline in 1962. Looking back, it was a marvellous time to do the job. I loved my flying and being able to travel the world before the days of mass travel. But it does have its downsides, the main one being missing seeing your family growing up while being 'the visitor'. I remember, one day, my daughter, aged around five, asking. "Daddy, are you coming to stay with us?" That hurt to the quick.
I don't know what the life is like today but I was lucky both to do it back then and, later, to become an instructor and flight manager. Therefore I had a more balanced routine than most.
My advice, for what it is worth, is to go for it but be aware of the downsides and make sure your family know this and are willing to accept it all.
Good luck
I don't know what the life is like today but I was lucky both to do it back then and, later, to become an instructor and flight manager. Therefore I had a more balanced routine than most.
My advice, for what it is worth, is to go for it but be aware of the downsides and make sure your family know this and are willing to accept it all.
Good luck
Sadly, that world has long, very long, gone Bergerie1 !
Nowadays, the airline owns you, and I am not joking.
Nowadays, the airline owns you, and I am not joking.
Uplinker, Sadly, you are absolutely right. I know I was very lucky indeed and it has greatly saddened me to see how much the world of airline flying has deteriorated.
The unions are far too weak. Nobody wants to take any action to improve - or even preserve - Ts & Cs.
My fellow pilots were not interested when I asked why we had to fly on Christmas Day or the Christmas period.
My fellow pilots were not interested when I asked why we had to fly on Christmas Day or the Christmas period.
