L3 VS CAE VS Leading Edge vs FTA- What is the best choice 2021?
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I think you would have trouble suing the CAA since they accept paperwork rather than approving it. On the other hand, since they have ultimate control, as does British Rail over their domain, there could be an argument.
Phil
Phil
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The CAA have spent the 15 years since Tony Blair introduced initiatives requiring transparency and accountability in public bodies steadily working around the rules so that they are not accountable and their workings are not transparent. Expect no help from them.
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I feel badly for the employees of both flying schools more than anyone else and hope they are able to find alternative employment soon.
As has been said on here and elsewhere, do not pay large sums of money upfront. I've heard it said that at the commercial stage of flying training, keeping a couple of hours in credit with the school may be reasonable to help them cover overheads associated with one's own flying but four-figure sums shouldn't be necessary.
I do wonder whether the UK commercial flying training market has been saturated. There's presumably fewer EU students, would-be pilots saw how the industry suffered during the pandemic, and in the past few years there's been additions to the historic "big three" in terms of integrated training capacity.
As has been said on here and elsewhere, do not pay large sums of money upfront. I've heard it said that at the commercial stage of flying training, keeping a couple of hours in credit with the school may be reasonable to help them cover overheads associated with one's own flying but four-figure sums shouldn't be necessary.
I do wonder whether the UK commercial flying training market has been saturated. There's presumably fewer EU students, would-be pilots saw how the industry suffered during the pandemic, and in the past few years there's been additions to the historic "big three" in terms of integrated training capacity.
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Oddly, the market is really busy with predictions of high levels of hiring. Easyjet for instance, needing another 250 pilots on top of what CAE are contracted to provide, and aiming at the modular market to get proper diversity of applicants. The problem seems to be zombie companies who are having their legacy debt called in now COVID is in the rear view mirror and there are one or two zombie company dominoes still to fall. There's even a case for a good debt-free startup to move into the market. But we do seriously need the CAA to write into the approval regulations "Approval is conditional on the ATO accepting no more than £5K deposit or up-front payment."
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Alex, one of your answers regarding the CAA is basically saying they will do nothing, and your next post contains a really good idea. How many ATO's in your group do you think would get together and write to the CAA with a petition. Indeed, why not instigate a letter to all ATO's and ask them to vote yes or no to the idea?
If an ATO approval was based accepting no more than £5K (or equivalent) deposit or upfront payment, in fairness, maybe add student accounts cannot be more than £10K in credit at any time to allow for operational requirements, I believe it would really make a difference. Furthermore, all ATO advertising and websites would have to clearly state this is a requirement, full transparency and students could breathe Ja huge sigh of relief.
SJ
If an ATO approval was based accepting no more than £5K (or equivalent) deposit or upfront payment, in fairness, maybe add student accounts cannot be more than £10K in credit at any time to allow for operational requirements, I believe it would really make a difference. Furthermore, all ATO advertising and websites would have to clearly state this is a requirement, full transparency and students could breathe Ja huge sigh of relief.
SJ
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Yes, we're on it. The industry is full of vested interests, though, so not everyone will agree the wording and we may end up with a letter written by a committee so chances are I'll draft one and some others may choose to sign. The main point is getting something in place preventing advance payments of any size but there are also questions to be asked of the UK CAA who, by law, are required to ensure that ATOs have sufficient funding. As they clearly have not complied with their obligations under the law I can imagine a class action of disaffected students suggesting to m'learned friends that there may be a case for compensation. We appear to be looking at around £3m already, and it may possibly rise to around £10m.
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Alex, great, I look forward to the follow up on this, something has to be done.
I must say I find the statement from the Sean Jacob (FTA) to Flyer quite pathetic....."it's with a very heavy heart" he writes the note, and yet not 2 months ago big press release about their expansion plans and appointment of new heavy hitters to the team (executives from other integrated schools I might add) and the so called 'fairer' way to pay...it was all a smoke screen.
I actually know of a young man who got taken by the BCFT demise and just 2 months ago was offered by FTA a £5K discount if he paid £29K upfront instead of £34K in installments....he paid it all up front of course and has now lost most of it.....any comments from Sean Jacob who can only say he has invested "all he had and has nothing left to give"....what's he looking for, sympathy.
I have even heard comments such as that made by Flyer in the obituary press release "one of the leading UK schools" they state, a local newspaper " a prestigious flight school". The old saying goes "the bigger they are the harder they fall" or in flight training, the more money they take from students. If Leading Edge goes the same way as remarked on this thread, the CAA have to do something.
SJ
I must say I find the statement from the Sean Jacob (FTA) to Flyer quite pathetic....."it's with a very heavy heart" he writes the note, and yet not 2 months ago big press release about their expansion plans and appointment of new heavy hitters to the team (executives from other integrated schools I might add) and the so called 'fairer' way to pay...it was all a smoke screen.
I actually know of a young man who got taken by the BCFT demise and just 2 months ago was offered by FTA a £5K discount if he paid £29K upfront instead of £34K in installments....he paid it all up front of course and has now lost most of it.....any comments from Sean Jacob who can only say he has invested "all he had and has nothing left to give"....what's he looking for, sympathy.
I have even heard comments such as that made by Flyer in the obituary press release "one of the leading UK schools" they state, a local newspaper " a prestigious flight school". The old saying goes "the bigger they are the harder they fall" or in flight training, the more money they take from students. If Leading Edge goes the same way as remarked on this thread, the CAA have to do something.
SJ
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Has anyone heard any news recently relating to Tayside? I wonder what the chances are of them finding a buyer. I'm a PPL student and I had just started the Nav stage when they went under. I had £300 in credit so whilst annoying, it's not anywhere near as bad as some students. ACS look like my next best option but I'd be happy to listen to any suggestions...
de minimus non curat lex
Wasn't there a flying school on the south coast which, in the 1990's, was told by the CAA to stop accepting new students due to not being economically viable?
At work I've driven past Hamble a few times recently with colleagues and we discussed the times when student pilots didn't have to worry about losing their money due to their flying school becoming insolvent.
At work I've driven past Hamble a few times recently with colleagues and we discussed the times when student pilots didn't have to worry about losing their money due to their flying school becoming insolvent.
The primary reason for this restriction was a lack of resources, both equipment & staff.
A SE instructor failed the ME flying instructor’s test, much to the annoyance of management who then argued with the examiner.
In those days this initial upgrade test was carried out by CAAFU. At its demise the only asset was a photocopier?
A number of their students transferred to BAeFC Prestwick for a much reduced charge to complete.
The other failure around then was Trent who operated out of Cranfield. Students also transferred to PIK
de minimus non curat lex
Until you get MPs & Dept of Transport interested, not a great deal will happen.
Without political interest & Ministerial direction nothing will change. CAA need to have a timely industry discussion. Likely to be glacial unless Secretary of State decides otherwise.
Obvious solutions: Escrow account / limit payments in advance / Credit card useable (S75 protection to £30,000) / PAYG
Without political interest & Ministerial direction nothing will change. CAA need to have a timely industry discussion. Likely to be glacial unless Secretary of State decides otherwise.
Obvious solutions: Escrow account / limit payments in advance / Credit card useable (S75 protection to £30,000) / PAYG
