STAR Arrival altitudes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: greece
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
STAR Arrival altitudes
Hello Everyone ,
I just got confused on a topic i couldnt find a proper answer to , but hopefully if anyone have a good clear answer to it which can help me out .
I know that STAR arrival altitude restrictions had a previous thread but i coudnt find anything that properly answered my questions .
ON JEPPESEN PLATES :
STAR altitude restrictions are usually posted ON the STAR waypoints for instance at waypoint A i need to cross at or below 4000ft , and i am only allowed to disregard this restriction if ATC issues a descend clearance with cancel altitude restriction instruction , for instance descend to 3000 ft unrestricted ,
BUT if STAR "X" has waypoints A , B , and C and no altitude restriction is placed on them but instead an altitude is placed underneath the track connecting them which as far as i know this altitude means MEA but i am not sure , for instance if underneath the track connecting A and B 7000 ft is placed and between B and C 5000 ft and when i am at 9000 ft ATC tells me cleared STAR X , descend and maintain 3000 ft , what should i do ?
1 : should i just fly laterally the STAR and disregard the 7000 and 5000 ft MEAs and continue straight down to 3000 ft ?
2 : should i descend to 3000 ft once the MEA on STAR X allows me ?
3 : i am not sure if these altitudes beneath the track are MEAs or just recommended altitudes to fly in case of radio comm failure .
I tried my best to address my confusion and i hope no one is confused after reading what i wrote
.
Thanks in advance
I just got confused on a topic i couldnt find a proper answer to , but hopefully if anyone have a good clear answer to it which can help me out .
I know that STAR arrival altitude restrictions had a previous thread but i coudnt find anything that properly answered my questions .
ON JEPPESEN PLATES :
STAR altitude restrictions are usually posted ON the STAR waypoints for instance at waypoint A i need to cross at or below 4000ft , and i am only allowed to disregard this restriction if ATC issues a descend clearance with cancel altitude restriction instruction , for instance descend to 3000 ft unrestricted ,
BUT if STAR "X" has waypoints A , B , and C and no altitude restriction is placed on them but instead an altitude is placed underneath the track connecting them which as far as i know this altitude means MEA but i am not sure , for instance if underneath the track connecting A and B 7000 ft is placed and between B and C 5000 ft and when i am at 9000 ft ATC tells me cleared STAR X , descend and maintain 3000 ft , what should i do ?
1 : should i just fly laterally the STAR and disregard the 7000 and 5000 ft MEAs and continue straight down to 3000 ft ?
2 : should i descend to 3000 ft once the MEA on STAR X allows me ?
3 : i am not sure if these altitudes beneath the track are MEAs or just recommended altitudes to fly in case of radio comm failure .
I tried my best to address my confusion and i hope no one is confused after reading what i wrote
.Thanks in advance
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: EU
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is very difficult to read as you don't punctuate your sentences properly. You are also overcomplicating this.
If you are being vectored, so told to fly a heading, you are no longer on the STAR. You can descend as you wish. You are under radar control and ATC will take care of terrain avoidance. Use common sense with this, ATC can still make mistakes.
If you are on the STAR, flying the waypoints, and are cleared for the approach, then you can descend with the procedure. You follow the approach plate altitude restrictions. It doesn't matter if they clear you lower than that, unless they tell you otherwise, you follow the STAR restrictions.
In reality, you can always ask ATC if the altitude restriction is in force. They can tell you to ignore them if they don't require it. For example, some STAR have altitude restrictions due to parallel runway ops. If they don't have both runways in use, they will wave the altitude restriction. You can also tell ATC you're in VMC, visual contact with the ground, and they can basically allow you to descend as you wish. at that point, you're responsible for your own separation.
If you are being vectored, so told to fly a heading, you are no longer on the STAR. You can descend as you wish. You are under radar control and ATC will take care of terrain avoidance. Use common sense with this, ATC can still make mistakes.
If you are on the STAR, flying the waypoints, and are cleared for the approach, then you can descend with the procedure. You follow the approach plate altitude restrictions. It doesn't matter if they clear you lower than that, unless they tell you otherwise, you follow the STAR restrictions.
In reality, you can always ask ATC if the altitude restriction is in force. They can tell you to ignore them if they don't require it. For example, some STAR have altitude restrictions due to parallel runway ops. If they don't have both runways in use, they will wave the altitude restriction. You can also tell ATC you're in VMC, visual contact with the ground, and they can basically allow you to descend as you wish. at that point, you're responsible for your own separation.
Last edited by SeventhHeaven; 13th Mar 2020 at 17:05. Reason: formatting
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: greece
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks SeventhHeaven for answering ,
My main confusion is if the MEA altitudes on the approach plates are considered restrictions ,or if ATC will ever gives an aircraft the clearance to descend below them .
For instance for Athens LGAV airport ABLON 1B arrival [ index 20-2 ] , is the 7000 ft MEA between ABLON and KEA VOR a restriction that no aircraft can descend below unless instructed by ATC ?
My main confusion is if the MEA altitudes on the approach plates are considered restrictions ,or if ATC will ever gives an aircraft the clearance to descend below them .
For instance for Athens LGAV airport ABLON 1B arrival [ index 20-2 ] , is the 7000 ft MEA between ABLON and KEA VOR a restriction that no aircraft can descend below unless instructed by ATC ?
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: EU
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah now I understand your question better.
Generally, yes that's correct. Even if ATC clears you lower you're basically expected to stay above 7000 until KEA. ATC can ask you to descend below that 7000 MEA, you're under radar control - they have other, lower minimums they can follow to vector you around that may not be obvious to you as a pilot. It's always a good idea to keep an eye on MEA and more importantly MSA though! ATC can and will make mistakes.
Generally, yes that's correct. Even if ATC clears you lower you're basically expected to stay above 7000 until KEA. ATC can ask you to descend below that 7000 MEA, you're under radar control - they have other, lower minimums they can follow to vector you around that may not be obvious to you as a pilot. It's always a good idea to keep an eye on MEA and more importantly MSA though! ATC can and will make mistakes.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: greece
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks again SeventhHeaven for clearing up my confusion ,
I guess flying any arrival in real life is a bit different from what we actually expect from this arrival during planning , so as you mentioned pilots can always ask ATC if MEA can disregarded during descent .
I guess flying any arrival in real life is a bit different from what we actually expect from this arrival during planning , so as you mentioned pilots can always ask ATC if MEA can disregarded during descent .
Only half a speed-brake
And then it gets quite scary in case they say yes, please descend below that charted, terrain limited altitude.
Will you?
Excellent choice of topic to get perfectly clear before starting to fly, flyingwael330!
Will you?
Excellent choice of topic to get perfectly clear before starting to fly, flyingwael330!
