Would You Fly For Nothing?
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Would You Fly For Nothing?
Hi wannabes,
Given the recent pilot recruitment dip I have heard talk amongst newly graduated pilots looking for their first job that the "in-thing" is to stick on your CV that you'd fly for no wage just to get a foot in the door.
I must say this is stupid and iresponsible behaviour as if we all did this then the average wage for a pilot will slowly go down and the high expenses involved in getting the licence in the first place will be even more difficult to pay off once we get in the right hand seat.
I know it is difficult but could those of us currently posting out them CV's NOT do this please? Stop and think of the bigger picture!
BM.
PS: I have posted this as I've again heard that someone I used to train alongside has just fired off over a hundred "I'll work for nothing" letters to the airlines.
Given the recent pilot recruitment dip I have heard talk amongst newly graduated pilots looking for their first job that the "in-thing" is to stick on your CV that you'd fly for no wage just to get a foot in the door.
I must say this is stupid and iresponsible behaviour as if we all did this then the average wage for a pilot will slowly go down and the high expenses involved in getting the licence in the first place will be even more difficult to pay off once we get in the right hand seat.
I know it is difficult but could those of us currently posting out them CV's NOT do this please? Stop and think of the bigger picture!
BM.
PS: I have posted this as I've again heard that someone I used to train alongside has just fired off over a hundred "I'll work for nothing" letters to the airlines.
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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Working for nothing will only do the accountants a favour.
Why doesn't he just say that he is willing to pay for his own type rating, or better yet, he'll provide a leased 737 to the company so he can paint thier company logo on the tail.
Now there is an idea why don't a group of wannabe's with more money than sense get together and dry lease a 737 so they can ask that nice Mr O'Leary if they can work for him.
The airlines must be loving this downturn, since Spetember the 11th last year they have used it as a great excuse to get rid of people and to change the way they employ people. You would never believe that we are a group of intelligent people who have spent a considerable sum of money on self sponsored training would you?
Why doesn't he just say that he is willing to pay for his own type rating, or better yet, he'll provide a leased 737 to the company so he can paint thier company logo on the tail.
Now there is an idea why don't a group of wannabe's with more money than sense get together and dry lease a 737 so they can ask that nice Mr O'Leary if they can work for him.
The airlines must be loving this downturn, since Spetember the 11th last year they have used it as a great excuse to get rid of people and to change the way they employ people. You would never believe that we are a group of intelligent people who have spent a considerable sum of money on self sponsored training would you?
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I would not worry about it, anyone sending CV's off to airlines saying "I will work for nothing" is not doing themselves any favours, the only message they are sending is that they are worth nothing and airlines would not employ them.
Plus if airlines did carry out this process of hiring people and not paying them then you would find BALPA would come down on them like a ton of bricks as well as the govement I would imagine.
Plus if airlines did carry out this process of hiring people and not paying them then you would find BALPA would come down on them like a ton of bricks as well as the govement I would imagine.
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My point is not that the airlines will say "okay Joe Bloggs we'll take you on and just pay your expenses that's all" but moreover they might begin to think that a cut in wages for newbies is acceptable. I cannot imagine for one second that airlines would attempt to get away with not paying their new pilots.
It is the message these burks are sending out that could lead to the airlines lowering the wage that is the issue here.
When I borrowed the cash for my training I did so in the vague hope that I may find a flying job that will allow me to pay the bank and be able to put food in my mouth. I know it's always a gamble but as far as I can see these prats are making this plan even more unlikey.
BM.
It is the message these burks are sending out that could lead to the airlines lowering the wage that is the issue here.
When I borrowed the cash for my training I did so in the vague hope that I may find a flying job that will allow me to pay the bank and be able to put food in my mouth. I know it's always a gamble but as far as I can see these prats are making this plan even more unlikey.
BM.
Last edited by Baldie Man; 12th Aug 2002 at 17:16.
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Unfortunately there are pilots out there who have/are and will fly for nothing, certainly in the US and possibly in the UK.
Morally I think it is wrong and these pilots are making a rod for their own back and for pilots in the future. They are keeping type experienced pilots out of work and setting a precedent for the future and one day these same pilots may be looking for work only to find all positions are taken by others willing to work for little or no wages.
It's much like the situation with MCC in my opinion, at one time MCC was the undertaken by the airlines but as more and more students elected to pay for their own MCC course in order to get ahead, the airlines began to realise that this would be one less expense for them and began to expect it on a CV.
BALPA and IPA should be cracking down on this, particularly BALPA as membership fees are based on a percentage of the individuals wage and as wages fall so will their revenue etc...
There was a thread in Reporting Points a few months ago concerning this subject and if you have the time I recommend looking it up as it addressed the points I have made and many others.
For those who may think that it is a way into your first right hand seat position, I suggest that you do a little bit of forward thinking as one day the person you maybe keeping out of work could be you! No matter how much you have forked out on your initial training the ultimate cost to you could be far greater.
Morally I think it is wrong and these pilots are making a rod for their own back and for pilots in the future. They are keeping type experienced pilots out of work and setting a precedent for the future and one day these same pilots may be looking for work only to find all positions are taken by others willing to work for little or no wages.
It's much like the situation with MCC in my opinion, at one time MCC was the undertaken by the airlines but as more and more students elected to pay for their own MCC course in order to get ahead, the airlines began to realise that this would be one less expense for them and began to expect it on a CV.
BALPA and IPA should be cracking down on this, particularly BALPA as membership fees are based on a percentage of the individuals wage and as wages fall so will their revenue etc...
There was a thread in Reporting Points a few months ago concerning this subject and if you have the time I recommend looking it up as it addressed the points I have made and many others.
For those who may think that it is a way into your first right hand seat position, I suggest that you do a little bit of forward thinking as one day the person you maybe keeping out of work could be you! No matter how much you have forked out on your initial training the ultimate cost to you could be far greater.
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sorry for changing the subject 'slightly', but this is relevant.
I understand, and agree, that flying for nothing for an air carrier is not morally correct. However, what do you all think if an unemployed flight instructor offers free flight instruction just to build hours?
I understand, and agree, that flying for nothing for an air carrier is not morally correct. However, what do you all think if an unemployed flight instructor offers free flight instruction just to build hours?
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If you've got a commercial licence then you are entitled to be paid.
Once again, it devalues everyone and allows employers to take the p**s.
The only exception as far as I can see is volunteer work for charities/relief flights etc.
Once again, it devalues everyone and allows employers to take the p**s.
The only exception as far as I can see is volunteer work for charities/relief flights etc.
Props are for boats!
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Only if it was for a Jet or Turbo prop Type Rating above 5700KGS.
IE. someone paying for it other than me!
No definitely not , what are we here for fellas ,think about. Its supposed to be a profession, that incorporates getting paid.
I fly for Green Backs these days, and there looking a bit shakey
IE. someone paying for it other than me!No definitely not , what are we here for fellas ,think about. Its supposed to be a profession, that incorporates getting paid.
I fly for Green Backs these days, and there looking a bit shakey
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I have just got an instructors rating.
Will I work for nothing will I hell.
To anyone out there thinking of doing this DONT, some of us have familys and mouths to feed.
Its hard enough to break in to this game with out daft things like this going on.
Flying F
Will I work for nothing will I hell.
To anyone out there thinking of doing this DONT, some of us have familys and mouths to feed.
Its hard enough to break in to this game with out daft things like this going on.
Flying F
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If you should decide to work for free, remember the industry that you have choosen is very small and people don't forget.
The guy that you are taking a position away from, could be interviewing you in a few years time!!!
Flying Farmer has the right idea and others should follow his professional attitude.
The guy that you are taking a position away from, could be interviewing you in a few years time!!!
Flying Farmer has the right idea and others should follow his professional attitude.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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It's easy to see why people are so emotional about this subject. We've all invested huge amounts of time and money into getting something we want, and then we see our dreams being shattered by a few "selfish" people who have enough money (from previous career/donated by daddy/left over from the lottery win after buying the mansion and the Ferrari) who are prepared to do something which we can't afford to do.
Unfortunately, though, this is how the laws of supply and demand work. There are currently more pilots than there are jobs for pilots. If there's more oil than there is demand for oil, oil prices go down. If there's more gold than there is demand for gold, gold prices go down. In fact, if there are more bananas than demand for bananas, supermarkets will put bananas on special offer. And if there are more pilots than there is demand for pilots, the "price" that it costs the airline to "buy" a pilot will go down. This will scare some of us away, convince airlines to hire a few of us where they may not have been able to afford to beforehand, and given time a status quo will be achieved again - albeit a slightly different (e.g. lower paid) status quo than the previous one. BALPA are there to keep an eye on things, but they can't change the fundamental way a free market economy works, as much as we'd like them to.
A completely different way of looking at the problem:
All of my flying time so far has been unpaid. In fact, I've actually had to pay for it!
I admit I only have a PPL, I'm not allowed to be paid for flying. But I fly because I love flying, not for the money. If I wanted money, I'd stick with my current career in IT. And once I get my ATPL, even if I'm lucky enough to find a job flying big jets, I'll still happily pay to fly light aircraft, simply because I love flying.
Ok, so this isn't a fair comparison at all. The flying I do at the moment isn't "work", and I certainly couldn't afford to fly for free if I didn't have another well-paid job. But I'm not aiming to get my ATPL to be a well-paid pilot. I will be taking a substantial pay cut when I get my first flying job, but I'm prepared to do this because I love flying. How much of a pay-cut would I be prepared to take? Well, as much as necessary, so long as I can earn enough to pay the mortgage, pay the bills, buy food... If I didn't love flying as much, I might not be quite so prepared to do this.
Working for free? No thank you - I can't afford it. But it's not quite as silly as it seems at first, and I really can't blame people for being "selfish" and working for the lowest amount they can afford, if they love flying enough - I'd do exactly the same if I could afford it.
FFF
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Unfortunately, though, this is how the laws of supply and demand work. There are currently more pilots than there are jobs for pilots. If there's more oil than there is demand for oil, oil prices go down. If there's more gold than there is demand for gold, gold prices go down. In fact, if there are more bananas than demand for bananas, supermarkets will put bananas on special offer. And if there are more pilots than there is demand for pilots, the "price" that it costs the airline to "buy" a pilot will go down. This will scare some of us away, convince airlines to hire a few of us where they may not have been able to afford to beforehand, and given time a status quo will be achieved again - albeit a slightly different (e.g. lower paid) status quo than the previous one. BALPA are there to keep an eye on things, but they can't change the fundamental way a free market economy works, as much as we'd like them to.
A completely different way of looking at the problem:
All of my flying time so far has been unpaid. In fact, I've actually had to pay for it!
I admit I only have a PPL, I'm not allowed to be paid for flying. But I fly because I love flying, not for the money. If I wanted money, I'd stick with my current career in IT. And once I get my ATPL, even if I'm lucky enough to find a job flying big jets, I'll still happily pay to fly light aircraft, simply because I love flying.
Ok, so this isn't a fair comparison at all. The flying I do at the moment isn't "work", and I certainly couldn't afford to fly for free if I didn't have another well-paid job. But I'm not aiming to get my ATPL to be a well-paid pilot. I will be taking a substantial pay cut when I get my first flying job, but I'm prepared to do this because I love flying. How much of a pay-cut would I be prepared to take? Well, as much as necessary, so long as I can earn enough to pay the mortgage, pay the bills, buy food... If I didn't love flying as much, I might not be quite so prepared to do this.
Working for free? No thank you - I can't afford it. But it's not quite as silly as it seems at first, and I really can't blame people for being "selfish" and working for the lowest amount they can afford, if they love flying enough - I'd do exactly the same if I could afford it.
FFF
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Does anyone really think airlines will allow you to work for them for nothing??? Of course they won't!!!!!!!!
Apart from shafting your fellow pilots the airlines themselves will be rather suspicious of your motives. If you dont get paid it will be more like a hobby to you, therefore your actions and consequently flying may reflect this. Apart from this the unions would have a word to say to anyone "working" for nothing in the majors!!
You could of course get away with working for nothing down at the local flying club or a small air taxi company. But you are selling yourself short.
Take no notice of any idiot claiming to have sent 100s of CVs offering their services for nothing!
Apart from shafting your fellow pilots the airlines themselves will be rather suspicious of your motives. If you dont get paid it will be more like a hobby to you, therefore your actions and consequently flying may reflect this. Apart from this the unions would have a word to say to anyone "working" for nothing in the majors!!
You could of course get away with working for nothing down at the local flying club or a small air taxi company. But you are selling yourself short.
Take no notice of any idiot claiming to have sent 100s of CVs offering their services for nothing!
Let's face it, the pilot market is currently oversupplied with qualified, sometimes experienced and, in many cases, desperate pilots. The 'I'll fly for free' offers just underline this. What irritates me is the already hired airline pilots who moonlight as flying instructors, para drop pilots etc., preventing even these pitifully rewarded flying experience opportunities from becoming available to the wannabes.
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I will be taking a substantial pay cut when I get my first flying job, but I'm prepared to do this because I love flying. How much of a pay-cut would I be prepared to take? Well, as much as necessary, so long as I can earn enough to pay the mortgage, pay the bills, buy food... If I didn't love flying as much, I might not be quite so prepared to do this.
Why should we as potential employees be made to suffer the poor planning of a company or have to prop up a bad business model? Are we not training to be safety critical professionals? Aircrew make strategic decisions while airborne that could save or lose an airline money (fuel burn, divert or not divert due to tech/wx reasons, mess up a landing and see yourself on the evening news and watch the stock value of the company collapse). Why should an airline profit for free from OUR investment?
An airline is a business, it requires certain things to be an airline. Aeroplanes are one thing, but without pilots they are just very expensive garden sheds.
Supply and Demand is one thing, but why prostitue yourself?
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It's the same syndrome as when I played music professionally. I always refused to play for nothing. I had studied hard, often nine hours a day to be paid for my skills. I often got a slagging for turning down free gigs that *may* having aided my career but I had a stance that I was not going to change - the only exception were charity gigs obviously.
This "I'll fly for free" is not understandable at all FFF.
At the end of the day we are all adults who can resist the urge to do whatever we want because we have an emotional attachment. Do you grab hold of a stranger you are attracted to and shove your tongue down their throat because your emotions are running high? Of course not. Because you realise this is the wrong behaviour.
If I could resist the temptaion to play the music I love for free I am sure some wannabe can resist the flipping urge to pop "fly for free" on his/her CV!
Us wannabes need to be united on this one
Think for one second what your actions are leading to. You all know who you are!!
BM.
This "I'll fly for free" is not understandable at all FFF.
At the end of the day we are all adults who can resist the urge to do whatever we want because we have an emotional attachment. Do you grab hold of a stranger you are attracted to and shove your tongue down their throat because your emotions are running high? Of course not. Because you realise this is the wrong behaviour.
If I could resist the temptaion to play the music I love for free I am sure some wannabe can resist the flipping urge to pop "fly for free" on his/her CV!
Us wannabes need to be united on this one
Think for one second what your actions are leading to. You all know who you are!!
BM.
I say there boy
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This "I'll fly for free" is not understandable at all FFF.
If there are enough people out there who are rich enough to fly professionally without being paid, it would not surprise me if some airline somewhere tried to hire them (happens in some small US airlines and has been implied in some UK air taxi work I know).
I personally would question the business sensibility of this. IMHO there aren't be enough qualified people with large private incomes to make unpaid commercial pilots a viable and safe long-term business model. A short term knee-jerk to a glut of desperate qualified inexperienced pilots, yes, but not a sensible long-term model.
If an airline were forcing less well off people to work for nothing I would question the safety of this practice: Do you want one of the pilots of your flight to be wondering how to scratch together enough pennies to eat today? There are few things worse for an airline's bottom line than a crash.
cheers!
foggy.
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I told you, there will be no airline (flying jets) that will allow you to work for nothing. When you come to find employment you enter a contract with that airline, a financial contract in which you work X number of hours for X pounds.
People who work for nothing indicate that they are not working for financial reward. These HR peeps will then attribute this to (a) this persons attitude to his flying is more akin to a hobby because he doesn't need paying and (b) if this guy is working for nothing what will his motivation and attitude be like when he needs to get up at 4am on a regular basis.
Not to mention possible strike action from the other pilots in the workforce who may find out.
End of story.
People who work for nothing indicate that they are not working for financial reward. These HR peeps will then attribute this to (a) this persons attitude to his flying is more akin to a hobby because he doesn't need paying and (b) if this guy is working for nothing what will his motivation and attitude be like when he needs to get up at 4am on a regular basis.
Not to mention possible strike action from the other pilots in the workforce who may find out.
End of story.
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I know what you're saying Kapooley and agreed with you earlier in the thread. I appreciate your trying to dispell our fears too.
If you were management and were getting letters from pilots offering to fly for free are you sure you wouldn't take a step back and think "hang on, do we need to be paying new recruits as much as we currently do then?"
Of course you would.
BM.
If you were management and were getting letters from pilots offering to fly for free are you sure you wouldn't take a step back and think "hang on, do we need to be paying new recruits as much as we currently do then?"
Of course you would.
BM.
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I agree with FFF's point of view...
i've sent loads of cv's since the end of my ab-initio training since nov. '01 - i'm now CPL with IR/ME, MCC and frozen JAA-ATPL with barely 200fh, as simulator hours can't be counted for the total... all these negative replies do have an influence on you at the end. I'm now even officialy un-employed, something which makes me feel quite bad as I have other qualifications to start a full-time job in the aviation industry if I wanted to...
It isn't fun for my parents too - who paid for my training - and still try to help, looking for contacts through friends and family... and who now see me all day browsing the net until... perhaps one day... uncertain...
thx to god i'm a born optimistic but these are tough times for loads of low-time pilots as me...
i'm not completely behind the 'flying for nothing'-idea... paying licence reconversions, small type rating, travel, basic salary etc... ready to do this... if only some-one offered me a job... that's the clue now!
hope you get my point...
i've sent loads of cv's since the end of my ab-initio training since nov. '01 - i'm now CPL with IR/ME, MCC and frozen JAA-ATPL with barely 200fh, as simulator hours can't be counted for the total... all these negative replies do have an influence on you at the end. I'm now even officialy un-employed, something which makes me feel quite bad as I have other qualifications to start a full-time job in the aviation industry if I wanted to...
It isn't fun for my parents too - who paid for my training - and still try to help, looking for contacts through friends and family... and who now see me all day browsing the net until... perhaps one day... uncertain...
thx to god i'm a born optimistic but these are tough times for loads of low-time pilots as me...
i'm not completely behind the 'flying for nothing'-idea... paying licence reconversions, small type rating, travel, basic salary etc... ready to do this... if only some-one offered me a job... that's the clue now!
hope you get my point...
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Baldie,
My last post sounds a little irate, sorry.
If I was managment I would not consider it for a moment.
Look at it from the management side. If other pilots find out it will cause widespread anger towards that pilot and the company for employing him etc. Far to risky, and would cause deep unrest in the airline!
My last post sounds a little irate, sorry.
If I was managment I would not consider it for a moment.
Look at it from the management side. If other pilots find out it will cause widespread anger towards that pilot and the company for employing him etc. Far to risky, and would cause deep unrest in the airline!