Would You Fly For Nothing?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There is nobody that I know that lets you pay for flying commercially in the JAA. This is really an American disease and as such is not a concern to JAA license holders.

Paying for type ratings is.

There are very very few quality operators out there who will be happy with a self sponsored type rating conducted at an unfamiliar training organisation some months ago where the student was also the paymaster. For obvious reasons.

Therefore unless you have a virtual IN to a particular company on a particular type I would strongly advise you not to pay for your own type rating on spec.

Frankly the kind of small airline that makes you pay to work for them is just the kind of airline that will infect you with bad habbits and low standards.

Stay away in JAA land.

WWW

[Baldie Man]

Hi there folks,

Okay, firstly I would like to take Palgia up on a few points he/she raised in their post. I have had a walk around the block and been to feed the ducks down the lakes to calm down a little because I was a little angry after reading the post to be quite frank. I doubt very much whether you are in my shoes with £54'000 to pay back to the bank.

So, to address some points made by Palgia:

It looks like the "250-hour-frozen-ATPL" pilots are just too proud to fly for free. Too bad for them.

It is most definately not a case of being to proud to fly for free but purely a financial situation here. I do not feel I will know it all once I've got my licence and speaking to guys who've flown for years one never does apparently.

If you love to fly, you'll have no problem with that.

I do have a problem with that because I cannot afford it once I have my licence and neither can many others in my shoes.

Training doesn’t end at the frozen ATLP exam…. I know it would be nice if the airlines paid for all the training... but they are cutting on costs and unfortunately they wont. Cant do much about it.

You can do something about it by not playing ball. Do not offer to fly for free. Don't pay to fly either, instead sit back and be patient. Simple as that.

The airlines are hiring, just not the average "250-hour-frozen-ATPL" pilot...

They were prior to 11/9 2001 and they will once things pick up again.

. Alternatively, you can just get the money from the same place you got the previous $50,000

And just exactly what planet are you living on these days? I won't even bother to explain the problems/dangers of borrowing more money when you already owe £54'000.

But please don't despise those who are working hard to get to the airlines, doing whatever it takes.

Well I hope you'll excuse me if I do despise them but because of them the chances of my parents house being repossesed increase. Thank you for that. Maybe you'd like to break the news to them? No? Didn't think so.

AS for you Fly For Free:

The other reason is one which Doudou and skysheriff seem to have lost sight of, and that's sad. It's fun to fly - that's why we do it!

I wonder what you think makes someone with a nice job, house and security one day decide to risk it all to get a CPL? Insanity? We all love flying but that love has to be balanced with a sane approach to finances. We are not made of money. I am training to get a commercial pilots licence. This means that along with my flying skills I should have a keen business head at times to go with it. Airlines are there, as we all know, to make a profit and once employed by them I will be doing my damdest to make them money. It will be my job.

What sort of business head would you be showing by offering to fly for nothing?

The student now picks the bill up for the MCC thanks to those trying to get ahead so if things continue in this vien under the crappy excuse of "supply and demand" then a wannabe commercial pilot will soon be looking at an initial outlay of nearer £100'000 to fulfill the dream.

I would suggest you button it for the time being FFF untill the time comes that this issue is directly concerning you. When that time does come you may change your tune.

BM.

[redsnail]

CPL holders are professionals. I wouldn't ask a plumber to work for free, why should any one expect me to fly for free in a commercial operation? If the charter mob or parachute company can charge for their services, I expect to be paid.
Yes flying is fun but try telling that to the supermarket at the checkout.
Ok, you don't have the hours. If you are single leave the UK for a while and get a job o/s. Africa hires low houred pilots. Oz and Canada do too. (However, in Oz the competition is very very tough) Sort out the immigration hassles and away you go. Life is an adventure, what an opportunity.
Don't want to leave the UK? Ok, think outside the loop. You are a pilot! Seek out parachute operations, look for interesting niche flying. I am sure there are some scenic type flights you could do in summer. If not, see if you can generate some interest. Surely 50 hours paid flying is better than nothing? Friendly with the local gliding club? Help them out with glider towing.
Just don't sit around expecting the shiny jet job to come to you.

[FlyingForFun]

Baldie Man,

I would suggest you button it for the time being FFF

I thought we were supposed to be adults in here? I have an opinion which is different from yours, I thought the idea of a forum is that we express our opinions, and debate them. So no, I won't button it.

As for waiting until the time when the issue directly concerns me, because I'm too impatient to wait that long, I'll instead tell you about a couple of acquaintances of mine who have already reached that stage, and progressed past it. Like one of the co-owners of my aircraft, who, despite having an ATPL and several tens of thousands of hours, still enjoys flying enough to not only pay for a share in the aircraft, and pay to use it, but also put up the majority of the money required to build it until shares could be sold off. Or my flying instructor, who, on a flying instructor's wage, still managed to find the cash to buy a share in his own aircraft, and log 10-15 hours a year in it on top of his instructing time. Probably didn't help him get the airline job which he eventually got, although it certainly didn't harm - but the reason he did it was because he wanted to fly, and didn't mind paying for it.

But, as I've said several times already, everyone's financial position is different. You are clearly not in a position to be able to pay to fly, nor fly for free, because you have large debts secured on your parents house. I also won't be in a position to do that - not full time, at least - because I have a mortgage to pay. But that's not going to cause me to criticise those who can afford it - any more than I'd criticise those who can afford to buy Ferarris for doing so, and therefore increasing the demand for them and pushing them out of my price-range. If I were in your position, I'd follow Reddo's excellent advice and find whatever paid work you can, even if it's not flying airliners.

You also said:

Because of them the chances of my parents house being repossesed increase

Several people have said this is unlikely, because although people may be willing to work for free, there aren't many who would hire them on these terms. I'm not in a position to be able to say whether this is true or not, but the arguments being put forward certainly sound feasible to me. So no, these people are not in any way affecting the chances of your parents house being reposessed. I don't think you say what you're currently doing in the way of looking for work, but if all you're doing is waiting for that airline job offer to fall through the letterbox, then that is probably what's making the reposession of your parents' house more likely. (And if you are actively looking for work apart from with the airlines, then my apologies for implying that you're not.)

FFF
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[Baldie Man]

FFF,

Currently plowing through the training at the mo'. Job hunting comes soon by which time the recruitment trend may be well and truly be set thanks to those currently offering their services for free.

As for my desire to fly that is not really for you to question is it? As it is you can rest assured that I think more about flying than I do about sex so I hope that clears that one up.

I am aware that this is a forum for all to discuss issues on but my own personal gameplan is never to post on a thread that does not directly concern me. You will rarely see me posting in the R&N section as I am not by definition a professional pilot yet so I keep me kneb out. That is my choice though. I appreciate your choice to comment on those issues that are not directly affecting you and your response is appreciated as such by myself.

Thank you.

BM.

Edited as I've just re-read your post and see that you do not directly question my desire to fly but nevertheless I feel you alude to it. Apologies if to you this is not the case.

[tailscrape]

Fly for free?

Consider this:

You have spent £60k and worked hard to get flying. You get established in an airline you love. Great. Things look rosy.

Then along come some wannabees who are desperate to fly. Just like you were.

However, you had principles, so you built hours, instructed and whatever.

These youngsters just want to get in a jet yesterday. They come and fly for nothing and that affects your security and negotiating power.

So, what happens next?

Well, you are on a contract and are very secure because of that. However these free wannabees are not. They get shafted when offered a full time job and are compelled to accept it, because no one else will give them a job because they are seen as cheap pilots.

All in all, it won't help the existing pilot or the wannabee.

They don't realise it, but it is a better idea to hang out for better terms and conditions, not offering work for nothing.

I think most UK airlines will recruit again in the coming six months.

Why panic?

[Lazlo]

Baldie Man,

Like you, I have had to wait a bit before writing this in order to calm down a bit. Palgia is simply an example of everything that is wrong or can go wrong with this industry. He seems to think that you should do whatever it takes to get the job but apparently he doesn’t have any pride or dignity. Working for free is no better than prostitution and you should be treated like one if you do this. And paying to fly, well that’s for hobbyists not professionals. This stuff goes on in the US but fortunately it is fairly rare elsewhere.

When I was a new pilot, very naïve, with low hours and had just completed my instrument rating I was phoned up by the air taxi company I had just done my IR with. They needed a second pilot to come along for a flight the next day, would I do it. Sure I said, no problem, and money didn’t even come into my mind at the time except that for the first time ever I wouldn’t be paying hundreds an hour to fly a multi-engined aircraft. I did the flight the next day and as a sort of aside I mentioned the topic of money. Minimum wage I was told, but that I should be grateful because as far as he was concerned I was getting paid minimum wage PLUS a couple of hundred an hour which is what I would have paid for these hours if I was renting the aircraft to build hours. OK so for the eight hours I got that day I could consider myself 1600 better off plus a bit extra for minimum wage. I didn’t like the logic but at the time I was just happy to have helped out, gotten a bit of experience and some multi engine hours. But the next week when I went to collect my “paycheque” the owner was certainly surprised that I even wanted the money. He had obviously been banking that I wouldn’t bother and would work for free. OK minimum wage is almost nothing but I certainly would never work for free, not then, not now, not ever. I had to hassle them for several days to get that cheque. I never did get any more work from them, I suppose they found some other sucker to work for “minimum wage plus 200 and hour”.

Less than a year after that I walked into a major airline job with full salary, benefits and pension. I fly a large Boeing aircraft. Does that mean I should get paid minimum wage because if I had to rent the aircraft I would be paying god knows how many thousands an hour to fly and therefore I get paid thousands an hour in real terms? Not a chance. Never paid for a type rating (another abysmal practice) and never would. From reading the above postings there seems to be this general fear that these suckers who are sending out the “I will work for free” letters are getting jobs but as has been pointed out before, most are not and those that are, are getting jobs not worth having. “Good things come to those who wait” I was once told by a friend when I was despairing at being unemployed and I can tell you they were right.

FFF,

Having been an airline pilot for several years now I would like to give you some words of advice. Having fun while flying is of course very important, but important in terms of job satisfaction and nothing else. It is certainly not the most important thing. I know a lot of pilots (captains mainly) who are sick of flying but they do it because it is their job and they have lives - familes with children who depend on that paycheque that dad (or mom) brings home. The industry is unstable enough without these bottom feeders offering to work for free. Most people in this world hate their jobs and pilots are quite lucky in that there are probably more of us who love their jobs than there are who hate them. That does not mean that we should or would work for free or (god help us) pay to fly. If you pay to fly you are a hobbyist. Nothing more. Many pilots I fly with are part of a local flying club or pay to rent company Cherokees or own part or all of an aircraft. But that is done on their spare time, and it is completely separate from their day to day job which is commanding an aircraft with the responsibility of $100 million worth of machine and 330 men women and children who are depending on them to get them to their destination safely. That responsibility requires renumeration regardless of whether or not the pilot likes their job. Poor managers don’t like pilots, usually because they are secretly jealous because they hate their own jobs and wish they had made better career choices earlier on. I think it is fun to fly and personally I love it but I will tell you this: It is NOT FUN TO FLY WHEN YOU ARE GETTING UP FOR THE SIXTH MORNING IN A ROW AT 3AM, or are flying back from Greece at 2:30AM struggling to stay awake. That’s what they pay me for. I love to fly but it is not my hobby. That hobby ended when I got my first job and you would be well advised to keep that in mind if you intend to embark on a flying career.

Oh and by the way I just met some of our new 250 hour pilots who are now flying right seat B757. Great guys – worked hard to get where they are and are doing a great job considering the mountain they had to climb. What Palgia presents as facts are, in fact, not fact.

Lazlo

[Soggy]

Madness

Having come across this a number of times I think any airline practising this is putting themselves in great danger. The purpose of two pilots is obvious.
Imagine the papers if a crash occured and they found out the first officer was a rookie flying for nothing. Futher more, imagine the pawyers and legal firms. They'd be out of business i no time. These desperados will get nowhere!!
Dont worry about it!!

Personally I think all the airlines are on a hiding to nothing. WHat goes around comes around!!

[FlyingForFun]

Baldie Man, I'm pleased we're discussing this sensibly now, especially since most of your posts on this and other forums suggest that you're a likeable, intelligent bloke. Good luck with your training, and let's hope that by the time you and I have our frozen ATPLs in hand, the situation has improved enough that it's inconcievable that this subject ever came up!

Lazlo, an excellent post, some well thought out arguments that don't seem to be driven by emotion (although you did say it took a couple of days to calm down!) It's given me a slightly different way of looking at things.

I'm afraid I'm not going to change my mind on this. Life is unfair, and it always will be, whatever you choose to do. The best anyone can do is look at their situation, and do whatever it takes to get themselves from their current situation into one where they have a better chance of achieving what they want to achieve. Often they will be affected by things completely outside their own control, whether it's people with more money than them, September 11th, or any number of other things. Complaining about these events rarely helps. All you can do is re-evaluate your situation, and decide whether there's something more, or something different, which you can do to get yourself ahead of the game. But I certainly appreciate the other side of the argument, even more so after reading the comments on this thread.

Let's take comfort in the fact that, as has been mentioned several times, the whole thread is largely academic because so few operators are prepared to allow pilots to work for free.

FFF
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[Julian]

Almost WWW, as you rightly say this is a US idea and generally goes under the title of "Zero To First Officer Program" if you want to do a search on the net. I did come across one US based school which included RHS as part of the package to which it stated that this part of the the program "will be conducted in Europe". All the rest were US based 'programs'

[Bahee 96]

Common Sence

Baldie Man obviously has an atitude problem and won`t suceed in this profession. This is a public forum ,everyone has a right to post their opinion even if its as nuts as yours Flying For Fun. This is a tence discussion but we should`int lose the rag, alright BM.
This is a stressful time for all aviators but we have to continue to work hard at the goals in hand and not be lead a stray by stupid unintelligent posts by people just looking for a laugh.


BM a bit of advice, I think a career in gardening would be your best bet.

I think I swallowed an ant.

[skysheriff]

Scroggs, i beg to differ :

>No UK airline could or would accept someone working for no >reward. Firstly, it's not legal, and secondly no pay = no loyalty, >and little accountability. The most important thing to most, if not >all, airlines is safety. They are unlikely to trust their reputation >to someone with so little self-respect that they'd work for free.

>I would never offer a job to anyone I knew had gone down this >route.

thats exactly what Ryanair and Virgin are doing : paying upfront in cash for your type rating. Type cost is almost one year salary. Even senior jet pilots qualified on other types have to pay for conversion !

[Baldie Man]

Bahee96,

"Are you kicking off??!!"

Good to see all the Spanish sun has not corroded that wind-up sense of humour of yours yet!!

Good lad!!

BM.

[Nearly Man]

yeh, right

Its the 'I'm alright Jack' part of it that gets my goat!

Would be good to have some sort of 'SCAB' list .. you know, who to not buy drinks for at the bar!
If you have no value of your worth then you should go dig cesspits for free