Would You Fly For Nothing?
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I hope you're right mate. 
Perhaps I may be getting a little jittery over this matter but I'm sure everyone can understand why seeing as I've a nice fat loan to pay back at the end of my training.
Still - it never hurts to raise these issues does it?
BM.
Perhaps I may be getting a little jittery over this matter but I'm sure everyone can understand why seeing as I've a nice fat loan to pay back at the end of my training.
Still - it never hurts to raise these issues does it?
BM.
Last edited by Baldie Man; 13th Aug 2002 at 14:51.
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The CV's from newbies offering to work for nothing aren't the problem. Airlines are far from naive - they know how desperate people are for that first job. But for the reasons already stated they know they have to pay people. Anyone putting that kind of crap on a CV will just be viewed as an immature idiot. Remember, when an airline hires a new F/O, they are looking for someone who will with time and experience be capable of becoming a Captain. One of the many qualities a Captain needs is the ability to stand up for him/herself down route when it's all turning into a ball of chalk. Now saying you'll work for nothing tends to give the impression that you can't even stand up for yourself......so CV filed in bin.
So these CV's will not influence the airlines one way or another. Unfortunately the real problem comes from those who already have jobs - with the wide range of ages, hopes and aspirations found across the board in any pilot workforce, managements find it very easy to divide and conquer, the end result being that pay gets driven down and the workload goes up. This is where the real problem lies.
So these CV's will not influence the airlines one way or another. Unfortunately the real problem comes from those who already have jobs - with the wide range of ages, hopes and aspirations found across the board in any pilot workforce, managements find it very easy to divide and conquer, the end result being that pay gets driven down and the workload goes up. This is where the real problem lies.
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Obviously anyone who writes "fly for free" on the CV is willing to self finance another few months/year of the career to get a Type rating or build hours. And as soon as they have X hours in a Boeing they'll be sending off the CVs again, this time withtout the "fly for free" bit. Surely any airline manager worth his/her salt would see this and dump the CV?
Carlito
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Maybe a bit of subject. By paying for MCC and type you are accepting a huge paycut. Training more and more expensive compensation is going down in the long run wannabes will not be able to make a living.
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Pilot surplus = lower pay
Other industries traditionally offer unpaid internship positions. We all know that experience is perhaps the biggest barrier when applying for that crucial first position – hence the main driver for working unpaid will always be with us, and always has been.
With airlines offering sponsorship in the form of type-ratings, you get valuable experience for low pay. Is this wrong also? I suspect many people will say no as you’re getting a type rating for your low/no pay. You can see how the logical conclusion will be that gaining experience may also be deemed by some an acceptable trade off for low/no pay.
Where does it stop? Do we accuse any pilot who is paid less than his/her peers of selling out? I think that Carlito’s point is extremely valid. The ‘fly for free’ person has clearly shown they’ll do anything to get ahead, the company may have invested in some training, but has invested little in emotional value (ie wages, which is what we usually associate with self worth), and the pilot will jump ship at the first opportunity of a paid position.
I whole heartedly agree that flying for free deteriorates pay scales and isn’t good for any of us, etc… but surely it’s not the only factor that lowers pay. An excess of pilots means that there will always be someone willing to work for slightly less than someone else, we all know this. We’ll never all ‘be united as one’, as Baldie Man suggests because at the end of the day, we’re all competing against each other. Perhaps the only solution would be unions or BALPA to suggest minimum pay scales for entry level pilots with airlines, air taxis, flight instructors, etc.
If there is ever a pilot deficit, the boot will be on the other foot! We’ll rise up and be paid handsomely for our skills, Comrades!
With airlines offering sponsorship in the form of type-ratings, you get valuable experience for low pay. Is this wrong also? I suspect many people will say no as you’re getting a type rating for your low/no pay. You can see how the logical conclusion will be that gaining experience may also be deemed by some an acceptable trade off for low/no pay.
Where does it stop? Do we accuse any pilot who is paid less than his/her peers of selling out? I think that Carlito’s point is extremely valid. The ‘fly for free’ person has clearly shown they’ll do anything to get ahead, the company may have invested in some training, but has invested little in emotional value (ie wages, which is what we usually associate with self worth), and the pilot will jump ship at the first opportunity of a paid position.
I whole heartedly agree that flying for free deteriorates pay scales and isn’t good for any of us, etc… but surely it’s not the only factor that lowers pay. An excess of pilots means that there will always be someone willing to work for slightly less than someone else, we all know this. We’ll never all ‘be united as one’, as Baldie Man suggests because at the end of the day, we’re all competing against each other. Perhaps the only solution would be unions or BALPA to suggest minimum pay scales for entry level pilots with airlines, air taxis, flight instructors, etc.
If there is ever a pilot deficit, the boot will be on the other foot! We’ll rise up and be paid handsomely for our skills, Comrades!
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We are all competing against each other obviously - we all know this. We are competing against ourselves in the long run if we offer to fly for nothing.
Not the only factor in low pilot pay issues granted but the only factor being discussed on this thread - hence the headline.
I have seen with my own ears seemingly intelligent graduates admiting with tired resignation that they've offered their new found skills for nothing. They wish they hadn't but as has been pointed out they do it because they see it as a short term solution to their unemployment status. They feel that even if their pathetic "plan" works they will gain experience and then move on to a paid job. So yeah - they will if it all works out but it won't because the CP will (I hope) not look twice at them.
But it is the repercussions of this that will affect us all in the long run.
I know I have belaboured the point more than once on this here thread I started but quite frankly I don't give a damn as ole Clarky G said in Gone With The Wind.
It seems to me that *some* wannabes need telling more than once because amongst the guys I know this has been discussed untill we're all blue in the face but still the excited, newly qualified pal who we all studied with, toiled with and socialised with prints out the afore mentioned words on the CV as soon as he/she has completed the MCC.
It is happening.
BM.
Not the only factor in low pilot pay issues granted but the only factor being discussed on this thread - hence the headline.
I have seen with my own ears seemingly intelligent graduates admiting with tired resignation that they've offered their new found skills for nothing. They wish they hadn't but as has been pointed out they do it because they see it as a short term solution to their unemployment status. They feel that even if their pathetic "plan" works they will gain experience and then move on to a paid job. So yeah - they will if it all works out but it won't because the CP will (I hope) not look twice at them.
But it is the repercussions of this that will affect us all in the long run.
I know I have belaboured the point more than once on this here thread I started but quite frankly I don't give a damn as ole Clarky G said in Gone With The Wind.
It seems to me that *some* wannabes need telling more than once because amongst the guys I know this has been discussed untill we're all blue in the face but still the excited, newly qualified pal who we all studied with, toiled with and socialised with prints out the afore mentioned words on the CV as soon as he/she has completed the MCC.
It is happening.
BM.
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for starters you would have to be REALLY ****ING STUPID to do that..
i think you might find someone was pulling your leg here!.
Cant be bothered to justify this thread anymore by reading all of wot you guys have written.
PLAN AND SIMPLE....
IF YOU AGREE TO THAT CONTRACT, YOUR A TWIT.
i think you might find someone was pulling your leg here!.
Cant be bothered to justify this thread anymore by reading all of wot you guys have written.
PLAN AND SIMPLE....
IF YOU AGREE TO THAT CONTRACT, YOUR A TWIT.
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Supply and demand
There's a lot of talk of supply and demand. Too many pilots = lower pay.
There are a lot of people turning their backs on IT. jobs here, to train towards an ATPL. I'm interested to know whether an over supply of IT. workers, as I understand to be the case, is having an effect on their wages, and do new recruits have the same problems entering that vocation???
There are a lot of people turning their backs on IT. jobs here, to train towards an ATPL. I'm interested to know whether an over supply of IT. workers, as I understand to be the case, is having an effect on their wages, and do new recruits have the same problems entering that vocation???
Why do it if it's not fun?
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FBN, to answer your question, yes, but only indirectly. A very large proportion of IT contractors are being forced to quit contracting and take up permanent roles. This would typically involve taking a pay cut of around 60%, although the additional benefits such as pension, health insurance, training etc. would mean that in real terms the pay cut is only 40-50%.
As for new recruits, no, there is no problem with new recruits. This is because the role of a new recruit is often very different to the role of an experienced professional. Having been in the industry for 6 years, I would be very unhappy if I were asked to do the role of a new recruit. Many who have been in the industry for far longer than me would be even more unhappy. Therefore, companies have to take on graduates continually to ensure they have people who are prepared to do this work. This is not the case in the airlines - a 250hr first officer will do exactly the same job as a 5000hr first officer, and so the company will hire whichever they think will cost them the least in the long run.
FFF
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As for new recruits, no, there is no problem with new recruits. This is because the role of a new recruit is often very different to the role of an experienced professional. Having been in the industry for 6 years, I would be very unhappy if I were asked to do the role of a new recruit. Many who have been in the industry for far longer than me would be even more unhappy. Therefore, companies have to take on graduates continually to ensure they have people who are prepared to do this work. This is not the case in the airlines - a 250hr first officer will do exactly the same job as a 5000hr first officer, and so the company will hire whichever they think will cost them the least in the long run.
FFF
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No UK airline could or would accept someone working for no reward. Firstly, it's not legal, and secondly no pay = no loyalty, and little accountability. The most important thing to most, if not all, airlines is safety. They are unlikely to trust their reputation to someone with so little self-respect that they'd work for free.
I would never offer a job to anyone I knew had gone down this route.
I would never offer a job to anyone I knew had gone down this route.
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Its not a new thing.
I have seen plugs for airlines that will let you fly RHS if you pay THEM!
I think RHS of a 737 worked out at $18000 for 1000 hours, gign down to Cititaions at about $12000. I will have to see if I can find the links again....
Not seen the same schemes over here in the UK though.
I have seen plugs for airlines that will let you fly RHS if you pay THEM!
I think RHS of a 737 worked out at $18000 for 1000 hours, gign down to Cititaions at about $12000. I will have to see if I can find the links again....
Not seen the same schemes over here in the UK though.
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I have to say I agree with Baldie man. These people with money to burn anyway don`t belong in aviation.
Baldie Man I salute you.
Baldie Man I think I remember you from Jerez, did`int you sleep with a camel.
Baldie Man I salute you.
Baldie Man I think I remember you from Jerez, did`int you sleep with a camel.
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did`int you sleep with a camel?
) Be rude to go all the way to Spain and not sample the local wildlife wouldn't it! I think I remember you too.....sorted the smell in your room yet?
Back to the original topic now........
BM.
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Hi,
Julian is right, there is worse than people flying for nothing (yes there is : people who are paying to fly!
I heard a guy who paid to fly as 1st off in Belize I think, just in a turboprop!
When I was looking for my school, I saw school asking crazy money (don 't ask me who, I don't remember, the names and phones finished in the trash), about 70 000$ to go to the FAA ATP with 1500h, but normally a CPL with 250h costs about 20000$, the purpose was once you get your commercial, they put you in local airlines as 1st Officer to build up time, it's why they ask 50000$ more
I can assimilate 3flying for free" to prostitution, understandable in desperate situation, but never worthy long term
Julian is right, there is worse than people flying for nothing (yes there is : people who are paying to fly!
I heard a guy who paid to fly as 1st off in Belize I think, just in a turboprop!
When I was looking for my school, I saw school asking crazy money (don 't ask me who, I don't remember, the names and phones finished in the trash), about 70 000$ to go to the FAA ATP with 1500h, but normally a CPL with 250h costs about 20000$, the purpose was once you get your commercial, they put you in local airlines as 1st Officer to build up time, it's why they ask 50000$ more
I can assimilate 3flying for free" to prostitution, understandable in desperate situation, but never worthy long term
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some remarks
there are numerous pft schemes where you actually pay to build turbo or jet time. working for free is better than PAYING to work
flight instructors, even senior ones, get paid almost ...nothing
you cant support a family on a full-time CFI or FI salary (excepted multi and advanced instruction maybe), especially in northern europe because of the weather
when you work for MOL, you have to pay to send cv, for interview, for sim assessment, for type yourself ... you work for free on first year with all those expenses
in other professions, salary for apprentices is very low
there are numerous pft schemes where you actually pay to build turbo or jet time. working for free is better than PAYING to work
flight instructors, even senior ones, get paid almost ...nothing
you cant support a family on a full-time CFI or FI salary (excepted multi and advanced instruction maybe), especially in northern europe because of the weather
when you work for MOL, you have to pay to send cv, for interview, for sim assessment, for type yourself ... you work for free on first year with all those expenses
in other professions, salary for apprentices is very low
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Well said, palgia.
As I said in my original post on this thread, there are two very good reasons why someone would fly for free.
One reason paglia has described extremely well - in the free market, with current level of supply and demand for pilots, it's a good way of building hours. I doubt it's the only way, but it's certainly a good way.
The other reason is one which Doudou and skysheriff seem to have lost sight of, and that's sad. It's fun to fly - that's why we do it! There are thousands of people across the world who regularly pay to fly. They hire from their local clubs, they pay tens of thousands of pounds or dollars for their own aircraft, pay again to hangar and insure the aircraft, and then pay again for fuel, they will beg friends to take them flying in different types and willingly pay the friends a fair share of the cost of the flight. This is what aviation is about!
Once you've made the decision that you want to fly full-time, it becomes infeasible to continue to pay to fly, or even fly for free, indefinitely. If you're going to fly full-time, you are sacrificing a career in another profession, and you instead you need to make money from flying, in the long term, to be able to live. How long the "long term" is varies from person to person, depending on individual circumstances.
But have you really lost that love of flying before you've even got your first airline job? If you have, I feel sorry for you, because I fear you're going to spend many years in a job you won't enjoy. Trust me, I've been there, in fact I'm still there now. I used to enjoy the challenge of writing computer software when I was younger; I'd often sit in front of a computer hacking away in my spare time, along with thousands of other geeks. Many of those geeks now have IT jobs, and still go home after work to experiment with new techniques or new technologies on their home PCs, and these are the people who are happy in their jobs. Others, like me, only turn their home PCs on to log on to flying websites. I don't even have any software development tools installed on my home PC any more. I've lost the love of computers that I had, and I hate my job. I don't plan on letting my flying career go the same way. Doudou and skysheriff, I hope you haven't lost your love of flying, because I feel sorry for anyone stuck in a career doing a job they no longer love.
FFF
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As I said in my original post on this thread, there are two very good reasons why someone would fly for free.
One reason paglia has described extremely well - in the free market, with current level of supply and demand for pilots, it's a good way of building hours. I doubt it's the only way, but it's certainly a good way.
The other reason is one which Doudou and skysheriff seem to have lost sight of, and that's sad. It's fun to fly - that's why we do it! There are thousands of people across the world who regularly pay to fly. They hire from their local clubs, they pay tens of thousands of pounds or dollars for their own aircraft, pay again to hangar and insure the aircraft, and then pay again for fuel, they will beg friends to take them flying in different types and willingly pay the friends a fair share of the cost of the flight. This is what aviation is about!
Once you've made the decision that you want to fly full-time, it becomes infeasible to continue to pay to fly, or even fly for free, indefinitely. If you're going to fly full-time, you are sacrificing a career in another profession, and you instead you need to make money from flying, in the long term, to be able to live. How long the "long term" is varies from person to person, depending on individual circumstances.
But have you really lost that love of flying before you've even got your first airline job? If you have, I feel sorry for you, because I fear you're going to spend many years in a job you won't enjoy. Trust me, I've been there, in fact I'm still there now. I used to enjoy the challenge of writing computer software when I was younger; I'd often sit in front of a computer hacking away in my spare time, along with thousands of other geeks. Many of those geeks now have IT jobs, and still go home after work to experiment with new techniques or new technologies on their home PCs, and these are the people who are happy in their jobs. Others, like me, only turn their home PCs on to log on to flying websites. I don't even have any software development tools installed on my home PC any more. I've lost the love of computers that I had, and I hate my job. I don't plan on letting my flying career go the same way. Doudou and skysheriff, I hope you haven't lost your love of flying, because I feel sorry for anyone stuck in a career doing a job they no longer love.
FFF
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palgia and PPP - i agree what you 2 stated and i'm one of those 250fh frozen ATPL buddies... my english isn't so perfect to put emphasis in what i'm trying to explain...
true... true... 250fh is just nothing, it's just merely enough to pass the IR-exam and that's all... we lack loads of experience and surely those (like me) who are unemployed more than a half year, and even less... it just looks like i'm an average ppl-er who comes to club to fly the c172 in order to maintain its flying skills and its minimum of hours... (no offense here - it's my case!)
After such a flight, i feel very relieved, it relaxes me so much and gives me more strength to continue the job-battle! seriously, if i didn't feel that little extra anymore, i would just quit that piloting-thing...
and look... we're still young - we don't even know what real work is! unless i don't find a way to hourbuild somewhere in the world (thx god it's big, i'm never done ), i'll just take advantage of my other qualification to get a job in aircraft maintenance or ATC... that should do the trick in the meantime... another thingie to add to our almost 'naked' cv's!!
true... true... 250fh is just nothing, it's just merely enough to pass the IR-exam and that's all... we lack loads of experience and surely those (like me) who are unemployed more than a half year, and even less... it just looks like i'm an average ppl-er who comes to club to fly the c172 in order to maintain its flying skills and its minimum of hours... (no offense here - it's my case!)
After such a flight, i feel very relieved, it relaxes me so much and gives me more strength to continue the job-battle! seriously, if i didn't feel that little extra anymore, i would just quit that piloting-thing...
and look... we're still young - we don't even know what real work is! unless i don't find a way to hourbuild somewhere in the world (thx god it's big, i'm never done
), i'll just take advantage of my other qualification to get a job in aircraft maintenance or ATC... that should do the trick in the meantime... another thingie to add to our almost 'naked' cv's!!