CAE Oxford - Contracts for 2020
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Did you hear anything regarding this? I too passed my stage 3 and was due to start, and then they introduced an additional last minute stage 4; I then ceived a phone call from CAE on the 1st of November telling me that the Vueling Contract had ended and that the only option would be to do a white tail or start my stages with another airline... Appalling service considering the cost incurred of flying to another country to have an interview for them to 'pull out' last minute with a poor alternative offered....
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This has been in the wings for quite some time - am surprised it has taken so long. The "Oxford" name is history so the location is now irrelevant. The Oxford premises are very cramped, grubby, and have not had any money spent on them since the 1970s (see the acid 70s colour of the orange curtains in the Langford student accommodation for proof !).
If there is spare classroom space at a nice modern sim centre at Gatwick (or Madrid or Brussels or Amsterdam, for that matter), it does not make economic sense to maintain a stand-alone facility at Oxford. It has the highest cost per square metre of floorspace of any CAE facility worldwide. Or so stated a senior CAE bean counter visiting from Montreal about four years ago. In the same breath he said a move to Gatwick made sense, so the writing was on the wall.
How will they manage the move?
If its done the same way they moved the sim centre, the new instructors will in place at Gatwick, the ones at Oxford will be given the chop with short notice, very few if any will be stay on and commute to the new location, and the students get told be be at Gatwick for next Monday. Any complaints or requests for assistance for accommodation will have a clause in a contract pointed out to them which absolves CAE of any responsibility.
I suppose it does prepare them for the aviation environment.
The March 2021 date is very optimistic. I would expect most of the ground instructors will hand in their notice on receipt of the news, unless there is some compensation gold paid to keep them there till the end. In the current circumstances it would just make sense to stop any further courses starting until the move is complete.
Is the IR training going too? It would be the only thing left there so unless they have a cheap deal for a portakabin I could not see it staying. Perhaps it would make sense to leave Covid-plagued Arizona and concentrate all flying in one sunny EASA country?
My bet is.....something near Madrid. Or ...Ponte-de-Sur in Portugal. To show L3 what they could have had.
If there is spare classroom space at a nice modern sim centre at Gatwick (or Madrid or Brussels or Amsterdam, for that matter), it does not make economic sense to maintain a stand-alone facility at Oxford. It has the highest cost per square metre of floorspace of any CAE facility worldwide. Or so stated a senior CAE bean counter visiting from Montreal about four years ago. In the same breath he said a move to Gatwick made sense, so the writing was on the wall.
How will they manage the move?
If its done the same way they moved the sim centre, the new instructors will in place at Gatwick, the ones at Oxford will be given the chop with short notice, very few if any will be stay on and commute to the new location, and the students get told be be at Gatwick for next Monday. Any complaints or requests for assistance for accommodation will have a clause in a contract pointed out to them which absolves CAE of any responsibility.
I suppose it does prepare them for the aviation environment.
The March 2021 date is very optimistic. I would expect most of the ground instructors will hand in their notice on receipt of the news, unless there is some compensation gold paid to keep them there till the end. In the current circumstances it would just make sense to stop any further courses starting until the move is complete.
Is the IR training going too? It would be the only thing left there so unless they have a cheap deal for a portakabin I could not see it staying. Perhaps it would make sense to leave Covid-plagued Arizona and concentrate all flying in one sunny EASA country?
My bet is.....something near Madrid. Or ...Ponte-de-Sur in Portugal. To show L3 what they could have had.
Join Date: May 1999
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Brilliant; what could go wrong? Ditch your expertise and move to a more expensive location in a depression with new hire help, because being a ground instructor is easy, right?....what else?... they could always do an L3 and enable their competitors by taking on too many cheapo contracts and then farming them out at a loss. How can these people carry on? Doesn't anyone in these mega corps oversee them playing in the sandpit?
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Well the timing is unlucky, but projects like this take some time to complete. L3 also now has an impressive sim and groundschool building now at Gatwick but I recall seeing an artists impression of that about three plus years ago. And it did replace their facility in Southampton which had been previously used as a logistics depot and was on an industrial estate ( a sensible, low cost location, I thought ! ). It had high ceilings so could fit in sims, but classrooms were in haphazard locations round the periphery.
The logic with CAE seems to be to have the ground school in large training centres. These are situated near major airports so crew can fly in, do a few days sim, then be off again with easy flight connections. Not an issue with groundschool since they have to endure for many months! But it does also mean the bean counters of the mega corps can whizz in, cause the usual chaos, then be on their way out with minimal delay. It’s just a downside of being owned by mega corps based in North America. Their knowledge of the UK is very sketchy: the one place they will of heard of is London so it keeps it very simple for them. Same is probably true of any overseas students, given the abysmal geographic knowledge of most of the younger generation (trainee pilots in particular!).
This does not apply to the indigenous ATOs like yourself and what you say about expertise is of course correct. But for those from across the pond the bottom line is everything: their philosophy is people have to uproot their jobs and lives to follow the location logic of Corporate North America, and they just don’t get this Neolithic logic in Europe of preferring to stay in a place you know and are settled in.
The logic with CAE seems to be to have the ground school in large training centres. These are situated near major airports so crew can fly in, do a few days sim, then be off again with easy flight connections. Not an issue with groundschool since they have to endure for many months! But it does also mean the bean counters of the mega corps can whizz in, cause the usual chaos, then be on their way out with minimal delay. It’s just a downside of being owned by mega corps based in North America. Their knowledge of the UK is very sketchy: the one place they will of heard of is London so it keeps it very simple for them. Same is probably true of any overseas students, given the abysmal geographic knowledge of most of the younger generation (trainee pilots in particular!).
This does not apply to the indigenous ATOs like yourself and what you say about expertise is of course correct. But for those from across the pond the bottom line is everything: their philosophy is people have to uproot their jobs and lives to follow the location logic of Corporate North America, and they just don’t get this Neolithic logic in Europe of preferring to stay in a place you know and are settled in.
Ground instructor
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“Won’t work for a company where the customer comes last”... sadly that does not leave you much choice of workplace in flight training! And by default excludes the mega corps....
”impressive” was a poor choice of word - perhaps “new compared to the industry normal grot” would have been better. Perhaps they have a stake in nearby car park operators?
The lack of spending on training aids is about right. At CAE the ground instructors used to complain about the whiteboard pens that only lasted about 3 lessons before they ran dry. Apparently the top management tnuc In charge at the time insisted on buying them because they were £1 cheaper per pack than the pens that would last for three months. When it was pointed out it was a false economy he demanded statistics on pen consumption and duration rates to back up this anecdotal drivel.
On such nonsense are well paid careers based. Usually until they are moved where they can cause less damage. It’s the sort of petty focus that management in the Uk used to be slagged off for in the 60s and 70s, but I think it is actually an international phenomenon because this nincompoop was from a flat, wet and boring country in North west Europe.
”impressive” was a poor choice of word - perhaps “new compared to the industry normal grot” would have been better. Perhaps they have a stake in nearby car park operators?
The lack of spending on training aids is about right. At CAE the ground instructors used to complain about the whiteboard pens that only lasted about 3 lessons before they ran dry. Apparently the top management tnuc In charge at the time insisted on buying them because they were £1 cheaper per pack than the pens that would last for three months. When it was pointed out it was a false economy he demanded statistics on pen consumption and duration rates to back up this anecdotal drivel.
On such nonsense are well paid careers based. Usually until they are moved where they can cause less damage. It’s the sort of petty focus that management in the Uk used to be slagged off for in the 60s and 70s, but I think it is actually an international phenomenon because this nincompoop was from a flat, wet and boring country in North west Europe.
N4790P
Whilst I won't comment on the other issues raised , the L3 Crawley car park size had I believe more to do with a local councils 'green' requirements than L3 being cheap.
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Is the new CAE centre on Fleming Way, next the the Virgin base? There is a press release from autumn last year and YouTube video saying that they will move sims from the “old” Gatwick centre which will then close(?).
Is the “old” centre the one at Burgess Hill? I had always thought Burgess Hill was a district of Gatwick/Crawley but a look on Google maps shows it is around halfway between LGW and Brighton. Or was there already one located in Gatwick?
Is the “old” centre the one at Burgess Hill? I had always thought Burgess Hill was a district of Gatwick/Crawley but a look on Google maps shows it is around halfway between LGW and Brighton. Or was there already one located in Gatwick?
Educated Hillbilly
B61, the CAE Gatwick site is not new, it has been around for quite some time, I did a sim assessment there in 2014, so it has been around for a while, not sure exactly when it opened.
But as I understand CAE Gatwick housed the mainstream Airline sims (B737, B767, assumed it may have A320 sims due to the Easy MPL course but not sure on that), where as Burgess Hill mainly concentrated on Sims for Bizjet types. However I believe Burgess Hill may also have Airbus sims as well.
But as I understand CAE Gatwick housed the mainstream Airline sims (B737, B767, assumed it may have A320 sims due to the Easy MPL course but not sure on that), where as Burgess Hill mainly concentrated on Sims for Bizjet types. However I believe Burgess Hill may also have Airbus sims as well.
N4790P
I believe there is a new CAE facility in Crawley at an old L3 facility that they gave up when they moved into their new facility on Gatwick Road last year
Last edited by ZFT; 8th Aug 2020 at 00:40.
Educated Hillbilly
ZFT, yes you are right, just done a quick search on CAE sites at Gatwick and it seems there are two CAE site's in close proximity, the original one at Fleming Way (which I was referring to) and CAE Diamond Point (also a fleming way address) which I assume is the old L3 building you are referring to.
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Any rumour on where the IR training will go to? I assume the CAE Oxford site will be completely closed.
It has been rumoured for some time the airport want to demolish the CAE buildings and build a new bizjet facility. I assume projects like this have a greater possibility of not being cancelled to Covid-19.
It has been rumoured for some time the airport want to demolish the CAE buildings and build a new bizjet facility. I assume projects like this have a greater possibility of not being cancelled to Covid-19.
Educated Hillbilly
There is no substantiated information to suggest the Oxford site will close. Ground school is moving to one of the Gatwick sites that is it, flight training will continue at Oxford.
de minimus non curat lex
B61
Are the runways long enough for biz jets.......
1552m is fine for Saab340 / J41 for public transport.
Whether AOC Charter Operators as oppose to private jets would think so is a different matter?
Are the runways long enough for biz jets.......
1552m is fine for Saab340 / J41 for public transport.
Whether AOC Charter Operators as oppose to private jets would think so is a different matter?
Last edited by parkfell; 8th Aug 2020 at 12:09. Reason: 1552m et seq
Ground instructor
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Well they do fly in and out all the time so I guess so, yes.
the airport is definitely keen to increase its business jet through flow and flight training gets in the way, apparently.
the airport is definitely keen to increase its business jet through flow and flight training gets in the way, apparently.
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Yes the runway is long enough, there has been biz jets up to the the Gulfstream V go in and out. Some years ago there was a Dash-8 from Flybe called in on a recruitment drive, although there were no pax on board and probably a light fuel load.
Training aircraft always do get in the way! And calling it “London Oxford” shows where their future ambitions lie.
The VFR flying left years ago, then the sim centre, now the groundschool. I would think what’s left is just a matter of time.
Training aircraft always do get in the way! And calling it “London Oxford” shows where their future ambitions lie.
The VFR flying left years ago, then the sim centre, now the groundschool. I would think what’s left is just a matter of time.
de minimus non curat lex
You need to differentiate between private operators and those operating on an AOC where more stringent performance criteria are applied.
RTO approaching V1; also loss of thrust at V1 or higher speed, & LDA/LDR.
RTO approaching V1; also loss of thrust at V1 or higher speed, & LDA/LDR.
