Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Wannabes Forums > Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)
Reload this Page >

2nd series of ATPL ground school, is it worth pursuing a pilot career?

Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.

2nd series of ATPL ground school, is it worth pursuing a pilot career?

Old 13th Jan 2019, 15:04
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: London
Posts: 3
2nd series of ATPL ground school, is it worth pursuing a pilot career?

Hi everybody,

I recently sat 5 ATPL exams and failed 3 out of the 5 due to personal circumstances. Unfortunately I will not be able to complete the remaining 12 ATPL exams within the 18 month time period given from the first exam sitting. I will therefore be entered for a 2nd series attempt at the ATPL ground school.

So the questions I would like to ask is:

Is it even worth pursuing a piloting career with a 2nd series ground school attempt?

I know BA, Virgin, flybe, ryanair have a very high standard requirement of first time passes with maybe no more than 3 fails. Thus, a 2nd series attempt would be a straight rejection for a first officer role.

Are there even any other airlines that would could considers cadets like myself? Has anyone been successful finding employment after a 2nd attempt at ground school

Thank you
pilotuser345 is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2019, 20:31
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: On the road side by a knackered old Ford.
Posts: 20
Sorry to hear that you had a rough first sitting, I`m sure you've worked out where you went wrong and will sort it for next time. If you still want a career as a commercial pilot then it is absolutely worth continuing in my opinion, you will still get to the airlines etc (if that's your goal) but it might just take a few extra years, you may even get a more `hands on` flying job doing survey, skydive, bush flying etc and enjoy it more for a few years. You may have dented your chances on getting a jet job straight out of flight school, my advice to accept that a crack on- whats the rush to get to the airlines anyway?

Good luck.
ollie135 is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2019, 23:29
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 275
Airlines don't care about ATPL theory I wouldn't worry about it

Edit: I was a bit vague with this comment, I think ATPL scores matter less than they used to because the market is quite good for low hour pilots now.

I think if they ask you about a second series on ATPL they want to see you spin a negative from a positive from a HR point of view. Coming up with every excuse in the book will make you look worse but saying "I know I failed and it was a big setback for me but the experience of failing and coming back stronger and with more knowledge helped me on my journey to become a pilot"

ATPL scores do matter but I have seen so many people with multiple failures and second series all get into airlines so for me I have seen enough to say it shouldn't be the reason why you don't get an airline job

Last edited by Negan; 7th Jun 2019 at 10:22.
Negan is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 07:15
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France / UK
Age: 65
Posts: 983
Originally Posted by Negan View Post
Airlines don't care about ATPL theory I wouldn't worry about it
I think thatís true for a DEP application. As ollie135 said, itís definitely worth continuing. I guess youíre going down the modular route? If the airlines are your goal, build up your experience by doing instructing, survey, para dropping, glider tugging, regional turbo-props, etc. When you then apply as a Direct Entry Pilot, with about 1500hrs, your experience will outweigh any stumbles during groundschool. I would be surprised if anybody asked about it at interview.

For a cadet or sponsored pilot, itís a different story. The sponsoring airline will indeed look at pass-rates during the groundschool phase and any problems could be cause for termination.

Good luck and keep trying!
eckhard is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 11:46
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: England
Posts: 1,023
Originally Posted by Negan View Post
Airlines don't care about ATPL theory I wouldn't worry about it
Where do you come up with this stuff?

To be fair, right now it is probably less important than at other times in the cycle but many potential employers use groundschool results as an initial bar for selection.

Second series is not the total end of the world, but to suggest that it will not hurt your employment chances is very naive.
Capt Pit Bull is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 13:23
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 441
It is no big deal at all. People who did not know the difference between N1 and N2 got the job much earlier than me, some with multiple fails as well. Someone recently became a Captain despite having 7 fails. But he is a really good pilot and was/is an excellent instructor.

Of course, you need to know your stuff at the assessment. Got first time pass, zero fails, but nobody ever asked about them. So it makes no difference.
Banana Joe is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 16:03
  #7 (permalink)  

 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 68
Posts: 3,832
If you really want to fly, nothing should get in your way..... The airlines aren't the only game in town.
paco is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2019, 01:24
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: leib
Posts: 31
this is the kind of person I wouldnt want to share a cockpit with. If its so easy to deter someone from becoming a pilot, just by knowing that this atpl situation might have the chance of delaying his upgrade from the seneca2 to a b737...
turbopropmike is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2019, 09:07
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Ireland
Posts: 115
I work for an airline and occasionally get involved in recruitment. Once you have a sensible explanation for why you went for a second attempt you should be fine. Some airlines will screen you out straight away, but many others understand there's a human element too and sometimes things happen in our personal lives that can affect those sort of things.
ShamrockF is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2019, 13:36
  #10 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: London
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by ShamrockF View Post
I work for an airline and occasionally get involved in recruitment. Once you have a sensible explanation for why you went for a second attempt you should be fine. Some airlines will screen you out straight away, but many others understand there's a human element too and sometimes things happen in our personal lives that can affect those sort of things.
Thank you the reply, as I have said I would be happy with any airlines as my first job.

I'm just very worried about investing almost a £100,000 for my pilot training and to come out on the other side to find out that i don't even meet the criteria to apply for a first officer role. That is a very scary situation to be in and thats why I have to be realistic towards a career in avaition.

Could you name a few airlines that might consider trainees that weren't first time passes in their atpl ground school or had attempted it twice? Or do you know any friend that has been successful through this way.
pilotuser345 is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2019, 13:45
  #11 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: London
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by ollie135 View Post
Sorry to hear that you had a rough first sitting, I`m sure you've worked out where you went wrong and will sort it for next time. If you still want a career as a commercial pilot then it is absolutely worth continuing in my opinion, you will still get to the airlines etc (if that's your goal) but it might just take a few extra years, you may even get a more `hands on` flying job doing survey, skydive, bush flying etc and enjoy it more for a few years. You may have dented your chances on getting a jet job straight out of flight school, my advice to accept that a crack on- whats the rush to get to the airlines anyway?

Good luck.
Thank you for the reply.

The rush is because I'm 26 and pilot training costs will amount to a near £100,000 which is still a loan that needs to be payed back.

Could you please explain in more detail it just takes a few extra years to get to an airlines statement? I don't quite understand it.

Also when you say you have dented your chances on getting a jet job straight out of flight school, does this mean that there are 0 airlines in the UK/European region that would not consider trainees with a 2nd attempt at groundschool?
pilotuser345 is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2019, 08:26
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: On the road side by a knackered old Ford.
Posts: 20
@pilotuser345,
If youre 26 and worried about paying £100k back then don't worry, the solution is to go modular and almost half those costs. You could even continue to work whilst you redo your ATPLs (shouldn't take nearly as long 2nd time around) and hourbuilding etc before taking out a £30k loan for the CPL ME IR+ MCC, surely that is much more manageable. You`ll still be finished within the next 2-3 years and be applying for commercial jobs before you turn 30 as opposed to 29 (judging by the holds in L3/CTC training at the moment as a rough guess). Perhaps speak to the `Wings Alliance`, explain your situation as see if they can offer you some advice.

What I meant by my few extra years statement is that if youre a qualified commercial pilot with a reasonable personality and the market holds up then you will still most likely end up at an airline, even if its abroad. In the meanwhile you could instruct, do survey flying, bizjet flying etc etc. I know the pay isn't as good but you`ll have less debt from your smaller modular loan so will be able to take the pay cut. If you really want to be a pilot then that's great because you'll spend a few years getting some more hand flying under your belt and enjoy it, if you just want to fly a shiny jet straight out of flight school then you may be disappointed.

Truth be told I don't know which airlines are fussed about first series passes, perhaps you could give Jet2, Flybe, West Atlantic, Loganair, Ryanair, Thomas Cook a call and ask? I`d be very surprised if they all say first series only. I don't know what you situation is regarding flight schools but I suppose you could always throw £100k of borrowed money at L3/CAE etc and hope you get picked up by easyjet etc.

Hope that`s some use but do please bear in mind that it is just my opinion.
ollie135 is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2019, 09:29
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Negan View Post
Airlines don't care about ATPL theory I wouldn't worry about it
With what evidence do you make such a comment? Ar you knowledgeable of the hiring protocols of every airline in the UK et al? Old saying "engage brain before speaking"
PA28161 is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2019, 09:31
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 137
Are.......
PA28161 is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 19:17
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Event Horizon
Posts: 68
I agree entirley with Ollie135.
I was 26 when I started my training, couldn't get get a loan for integrated so went modular. My case was a little extreme as it took me 6 years to finish my training, and a further 3 to get my first job. But happily sat as an FO on a jet at the age of 37. It's doable in 2-3 years if you have a paying job and a nice boss. Integrated isn't the only game in town.
I know of one person who got a job with a 2nd series pass. They knew peeople in the right places which helped, but I beleive they now fly ATRs.
The market is bound to slow down over the next couple of years so competition will increase. It is possible for you to carry over the exams you've passed, go modular and pick up where you left off. Having a few fails shouldn't stop your chances too much as long as you even if you get 1 or 2 more.

Good luck
TryingToAvoidCBs is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2019, 12:33
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 9
If you 100% genuinely want to become a Commercial Pilot. then don't give up! I've taught 5000+ wannabes and seen all different issues and struggles. The key to passing the exams is passion and hard work. WRT perceptions, 2nd series is a factor, but only in obtaining that elusive interview with an airline. Some great advice on here to heed. Good luck with whatever you decide, but believe in yourself if it's really what you want.
anoraknaphobia is offline  
Old 6th Jun 2019, 18:22
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Leeds
Age: 31
Posts: 3
Series 2

Hi all, useful information above thanks, my circumstance are slightly different but I was wondering whether the same above would still apply... I passed all my exams first time with an average over 90%, however due to funding I was unable to complete my CPL/IR before the 3 years expired. I'm now currently going through the ATPLs for my second go. Would it still be a negative having series 2 exams in this scenario?
Thanks in advance.
Benj89 is offline  
Old 6th Jun 2019, 21:52
  #18 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,282
Benj89

Such things happen & to achieve a better average second time around would show commitment to the process.
Do as well in the flying and you will be well placed. Ensure the class one medical remains current.
parkfell is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2019, 08:04
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,218
Overall I doubt the airlines will care much about it at all. Specially if you pass later at a good score.

The important thing is what you learned about yourself from the fails, why did you fail and how can you improve.

You can expect a question about this in a HR interview, where they want to see how you found improvements in yourself by this experience.
I know guys who failed ATPL's and now working for companies like VA and BA, so it's not a major issue. But do expect that you might be asked about it during an interview, and as long as you have good explanation it's not an issue. These things happen, and not end of the world. After any first job, nobody will ever ask to see your ATPL's ever again.
2unlimited is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2019, 18:24
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Leeds
Age: 31
Posts: 3
Thanks

Thanks, appreciate the help
Benj89 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.