Women Pilots
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Pontius:
>> There are absolutely NO instructions (written, implied or spoken) that 'N' pilots should be female, Asian or whatever other minority that people not in the 'know' talk about. <<
Of course there aren't, that would be illegal!
BA might not practise such selectivity, but others do and such policies are NEVER admitted to (for the reason given above). It is usually something decided by an individual (such as a Chief Pilot), or is an "understanding" amongst recruiters. I have seen it first-hand.
Fortunately, the more enlightened employers (such as BA) are seldom subject to such problems as internal checks and balances tend to prevent them.
It's probably worth noting that the more likely scenario is a candidate blaming their inability to get a job on their membership of a minority, or their gender...
>> There are absolutely NO instructions (written, implied or spoken) that 'N' pilots should be female, Asian or whatever other minority that people not in the 'know' talk about. <<
Of course there aren't, that would be illegal!
BA might not practise such selectivity, but others do and such policies are NEVER admitted to (for the reason given above). It is usually something decided by an individual (such as a Chief Pilot), or is an "understanding" amongst recruiters. I have seen it first-hand.
Fortunately, the more enlightened employers (such as BA) are seldom subject to such problems as internal checks and balances tend to prevent them.
It's probably worth noting that the more likely scenario is a candidate blaming their inability to get a job on their membership of a minority, or their gender...
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Hang on there a minute, Pandora!
The fact that there are only approx. 120 pilots in BA doesn't mean that they are leaning towards hiring males!
How many women do you think pursue such a profession?? Yes Yes, in our day and age there are still loads of women who think it's "a man's job". Maybe you don't! Or the other females on this forum that want to become pilots but there are people that do see it like that!! It's not BA's fault!
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G-XX...finals and hopefully land!
[This message has been edited by MikeSierra (edited 14 March 2001).]
The fact that there are only approx. 120 pilots in BA doesn't mean that they are leaning towards hiring males!
How many women do you think pursue such a profession?? Yes Yes, in our day and age there are still loads of women who think it's "a man's job". Maybe you don't! Or the other females on this forum that want to become pilots but there are people that do see it like that!! It's not BA's fault!
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G-XX...finals and hopefully land!
[This message has been edited by MikeSierra (edited 14 March 2001).]
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MS
I was merely (perhaps unsuccessfully) trying to point out the stupidity of the suggestion that airlines are trying to recruit more women by bending the equal opportunities law. If this was the case surely there would be a lot more women out here flying aircraft for a living. It's simple - if the airlines have a woman/black/whatever quota to fill, why not just stop recruiting white men for a while? Before you jump up and down, yes I know that is a stupid suggestion as well. Which all brings us back to the point that I don't think that positive discrimination is as widespread as the men out there think it is.
I was merely (perhaps unsuccessfully) trying to point out the stupidity of the suggestion that airlines are trying to recruit more women by bending the equal opportunities law. If this was the case surely there would be a lot more women out here flying aircraft for a living. It's simple - if the airlines have a woman/black/whatever quota to fill, why not just stop recruiting white men for a while? Before you jump up and down, yes I know that is a stupid suggestion as well. Which all brings us back to the point that I don't think that positive discrimination is as widespread as the men out there think it is.
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Pandora-
There IS considerable leaning towards giving women much more of an "in" than white males. I've seen it first hand many times. The fact that there are a much smaller percent of female pilots is a reflection of the number of women who want to come into the pilot career. Face it, being a pilot makes for a VERY lousy family lifestyle. I've seen a much higher percentage of females (vs. males), who once they decide that they really want a family and children after all, leave the profession. Some try the mommy-track and warehouse their children in day/night care and with non-family care. In the US, at least, (and I'm sure in Europe also) a woman does not have to be nearly as competitive as a male to get an interview and job. That is not necessarily to say they're any worse, but they almost certainly won't have the flying hours and experience that the guy sitting beside her at the interview does. It sounds nice to deny it, but it all the bleating by libbers won't change the facts. If I were a woman, would I take the interview and job earlier than my male counterparts?? Certainly! But I'd make darn sure I was fully capable first.
There IS considerable leaning towards giving women much more of an "in" than white males. I've seen it first hand many times. The fact that there are a much smaller percent of female pilots is a reflection of the number of women who want to come into the pilot career. Face it, being a pilot makes for a VERY lousy family lifestyle. I've seen a much higher percentage of females (vs. males), who once they decide that they really want a family and children after all, leave the profession. Some try the mommy-track and warehouse their children in day/night care and with non-family care. In the US, at least, (and I'm sure in Europe also) a woman does not have to be nearly as competitive as a male to get an interview and job. That is not necessarily to say they're any worse, but they almost certainly won't have the flying hours and experience that the guy sitting beside her at the interview does. It sounds nice to deny it, but it all the bleating by libbers won't change the facts. If I were a woman, would I take the interview and job earlier than my male counterparts?? Certainly! But I'd make darn sure I was fully capable first.
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Pontius, I excluded BA because, as has been pointed out, they have above the average of 3% (and I think 3% is the number of female licence holders also, so anything above that is good). Also, they have done well by advertising for their cadets in magazines that women read, to spark their interest. They are the only UK airline I can think of that have done that, and its great. Obviously that will draw more applications but I also agree that they still have to get to the same standard as everyone else.
Roadtrip, I think you are talking rubbish. There are still airlines which have no women pilots, so why would any airline feel pressured to take on someone sub standard? Thats just a stupid recruiter!
Raw Data, why did you not just tell your passengers that if they didn't want to take up their booking on the flight, that was up to them? Why give them special treatment? If the Captain was a woman would should anyone pander to someone? Would the same have happened if 5 women turned up and refused to fly with a male Captain?
Roadtrip, perhaps you could enlighten all the women pilots as to these airlines you know of who take on anyone if they are female, even if they don't have the required hours/ experience. Then we can all apply and be handed a job on a plate? This seems to be what you are saying, so come on, tell us who.
As for why more women don't fly, well there are a number of reasons but I don't think lifestyle is the prime one. Most women have no idea what an airline pilots lifestyle is.
Personally I had to work quite hard to get any flying schools to take me seriously, and it was generally hard work. My boyfriend would always be the one getting all the information and answers even when it was me asking the questions (he hates flying).
After a while it gets a bit wearing. Even now at my local flying club you get men coming up and wanting to brag about how good a pilot they are, and to be honest, I don't want to know. I just want to turn up, go fly, be treated with respect.
I think the whole macho thing that exists at a lot (not all) flying clubs in the UK is a major factor.
Then there is the cost of training. I believe that even now there is a pay differential between men and women (in non flying jobs). Women don't earn so much. Men are the ones who are expected to be supported by their girlfriend/wife and generally women will let their man go off and attempt to fulfill his ambition whilst being realistic and staying in a standard job so that there is one income coming in.
But I am sure there are more reasons and this would need a whole new thread....
Roadtrip, I think you are talking rubbish. There are still airlines which have no women pilots, so why would any airline feel pressured to take on someone sub standard? Thats just a stupid recruiter!
Raw Data, why did you not just tell your passengers that if they didn't want to take up their booking on the flight, that was up to them? Why give them special treatment? If the Captain was a woman would should anyone pander to someone? Would the same have happened if 5 women turned up and refused to fly with a male Captain?
Roadtrip, perhaps you could enlighten all the women pilots as to these airlines you know of who take on anyone if they are female, even if they don't have the required hours/ experience. Then we can all apply and be handed a job on a plate? This seems to be what you are saying, so come on, tell us who.
As for why more women don't fly, well there are a number of reasons but I don't think lifestyle is the prime one. Most women have no idea what an airline pilots lifestyle is.
Personally I had to work quite hard to get any flying schools to take me seriously, and it was generally hard work. My boyfriend would always be the one getting all the information and answers even when it was me asking the questions (he hates flying).
After a while it gets a bit wearing. Even now at my local flying club you get men coming up and wanting to brag about how good a pilot they are, and to be honest, I don't want to know. I just want to turn up, go fly, be treated with respect.
I think the whole macho thing that exists at a lot (not all) flying clubs in the UK is a major factor.
Then there is the cost of training. I believe that even now there is a pay differential between men and women (in non flying jobs). Women don't earn so much. Men are the ones who are expected to be supported by their girlfriend/wife and generally women will let their man go off and attempt to fulfill his ambition whilst being realistic and staying in a standard job so that there is one income coming in.
But I am sure there are more reasons and this would need a whole new thread....
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Buffy
>> Raw Data, why did you not just tell your passengers that if they didn't want to take up their booking on the flight, that was up to them? Why give them special treatment? If the Captain was a woman would should anyone pander to someone? Would the same have happened if 5 women turned up and refused to fly with a male Captain? <<
We did- they never actually got on the aircraft. The conversation I described took all of 10 seconds and they were off the flight. No way we would delay departure for that sort of nonsense- they were also written letters explaining that if they had a problem with female captains, they were most welcome to take their business elsewhere.
>> Raw Data, why did you not just tell your passengers that if they didn't want to take up their booking on the flight, that was up to them? Why give them special treatment? If the Captain was a woman would should anyone pander to someone? Would the same have happened if 5 women turned up and refused to fly with a male Captain? <<
We did- they never actually got on the aircraft. The conversation I described took all of 10 seconds and they were off the flight. No way we would delay departure for that sort of nonsense- they were also written letters explaining that if they had a problem with female captains, they were most welcome to take their business elsewhere.
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Buffy -
Take 3 deep breaths and read what I wrote again. I didn't say they weren't "technically" qualified. I said that they generally did not have to be as competitive as a male would ordinarily have to be. There are minimum standards for the job, but more importantly, minimum competetive standards. I still contend that most males (unless getting special consideration via friendship or nepotism) must meet the competitive standards, while a female may only need meet the minimum standards. Minimum "standards" in terms of hours/experience for any major airline are almost always well below the "competitive" level. While an airline may only "require" 1000TT/300Multi, you will find that to be competitive (as a male) you must have 4000 hours + turbine time + 1500 PIC. You will find many women may not have the normal "competitive" credentials, but get interviews and hired with much less flying time and experience than a male would ordinarily have.
It's dangerous to generalize, because there are always exceptions - but from my personal experience, what I said is "generally" true.
[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 15 March 2001).]
Take 3 deep breaths and read what I wrote again. I didn't say they weren't "technically" qualified. I said that they generally did not have to be as competitive as a male would ordinarily have to be. There are minimum standards for the job, but more importantly, minimum competetive standards. I still contend that most males (unless getting special consideration via friendship or nepotism) must meet the competitive standards, while a female may only need meet the minimum standards. Minimum "standards" in terms of hours/experience for any major airline are almost always well below the "competitive" level. While an airline may only "require" 1000TT/300Multi, you will find that to be competitive (as a male) you must have 4000 hours + turbine time + 1500 PIC. You will find many women may not have the normal "competitive" credentials, but get interviews and hired with much less flying time and experience than a male would ordinarily have.
It's dangerous to generalize, because there are always exceptions - but from my personal experience, what I said is "generally" true.
[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 15 March 2001).]
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Despite what a few female contributors might delude themselves into believing, most of the rest of us are not misogynists. I don’t believe that I am. I have no problem with equality but I do get pissed off with posturing political correctness dressed-up as equality.
What do I mean by this? Pontus would have us believe that Big Airways do not operate a quota system (which would of course be illegal). Oh Yeah? Consider the statistical likelihood of any large carrier ending up with a percentage of female pilots that exactly mirrors the split in ATPL holders. Coincidence, eh? – rubbish. In a past life I was a regular visitor to a FTO that held a BA contract. Lined up on the wall were photographs of past graduating courses. I would invite Pontius to scan this long line of photographs and again, consider the statistical likelihood that the minority group representation (both female and from the ethnic minorities) arose from anything other than social engineering. I suggest nil.
Oh and scottishburd:- you tone rings a bell. We too have a couple of female pilots who sing a similar tune; constant moaning about sexism throughout training and on the line. One refers to all (yes, all) of the training captains as “..sexist pigs..” Both are a little more reticent about the obscenely extended initial and continuation training bestowed upon them training in order that they could qualify to a dubious standard. Equality would have meant them suffering the same fate as their male colleagues i.e., being chopped. As I said, I’m in favour of equality, but are you?
What do I mean by this? Pontus would have us believe that Big Airways do not operate a quota system (which would of course be illegal). Oh Yeah? Consider the statistical likelihood of any large carrier ending up with a percentage of female pilots that exactly mirrors the split in ATPL holders. Coincidence, eh? – rubbish. In a past life I was a regular visitor to a FTO that held a BA contract. Lined up on the wall were photographs of past graduating courses. I would invite Pontius to scan this long line of photographs and again, consider the statistical likelihood that the minority group representation (both female and from the ethnic minorities) arose from anything other than social engineering. I suggest nil.
Oh and scottishburd:- you tone rings a bell. We too have a couple of female pilots who sing a similar tune; constant moaning about sexism throughout training and on the line. One refers to all (yes, all) of the training captains as “..sexist pigs..” Both are a little more reticent about the obscenely extended initial and continuation training bestowed upon them training in order that they could qualify to a dubious standard. Equality would have meant them suffering the same fate as their male colleagues i.e., being chopped. As I said, I’m in favour of equality, but are you?
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Another scenario that has presented itself far too frequently is the female/ethnic minority member or whatever failing a course, and then threatening to go public with the old "I was a victim of discrimination" story. It amazes me (perhaps it shouldn't) how many employers cave in to this sort of pressure. But then, I guess the adverse publicity is worth more than another course...
Have to say, though, that most of the women I have either trained or flown with are top-notch folk.
Have to say, though, that most of the women I have either trained or flown with are top-notch folk.
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I don't work for the airlines so I can't comment as to attitudes there. I do know that in places such as flying schools discrimination against women is COMMON. When I started learning to fly I wasn't expecting it or ready for it, as I hadn't run into it in any other areas to anything like that extent - and I've had quite a chequered career. It's not universal, and none of you need to protest that you personally aren't prejudiced - I believe you! But it IS amazingly widespread considering this is the 21st century. You only have to look at PPRuNE! How long before this thread starts to degenerate as similar ones have usually done. If it hasn't already.
The last time I wrote this sort of thing I got told I was obsessed with gender. I'm not. But I'm now aware enough of attitudes that I can protect myself. There's a difference.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
The last time I wrote this sort of thing I got told I was obsessed with gender. I'm not. But I'm now aware enough of attitudes that I can protect myself. There's a difference.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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Here in the US the quota is alive and well. A Training Captain was trying to upgrade the poor skills of a female last month only to be told" it doesn't matter I am off to United next month"
I was trained by two ladys in the UK in the mid '50's and had the pleasure/honor of flying with one of them many years later when she was a Captain of a Comet, and I was doing some free-lance, between jobs. Those ladies deserved their positions in the industry, they earned it not like the present breed of female.
I was trained by two ladys in the UK in the mid '50's and had the pleasure/honor of flying with one of them many years later when she was a Captain of a Comet, and I was doing some free-lance, between jobs. Those ladies deserved their positions in the industry, they earned it not like the present breed of female.
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I would like to voice an opinion with regard to women pilots.
The intellectual requirements of a pilot are well within the reach of most individuals from the civilised and educated world. There is nothing in a pilot's job which would make it more advantageous for a male over a female. There is indeed a lot of responsibility to being a pilot, but other than that it is a "cushy number". The brain if a female is better structured to accomplish multiple tasks. A certain degree of confidence needed to when engaged in the operation of very large high speed aluminium tubing. It is well within the reach of either sex to gain the self belief needed to be a good pilot.
The number of women pilots in an airline has more to do with external forces acting in society.
The argument throughout this thread seems to vent steam from the conflict between male and female pilots.
It is the attitude and arrogance of male pilots and the attitude and arrogance of female pilots that need review. This boils down to personality. There are nice people and the not so nice.
It would be more beneficial to address the problem that good looking women are over represented in airlines. Similarly good looking men are over represented. This is a growing cause for concern throughout society in every profession. It is the same theme that runs through MTV's "Real World" show. Good looking people creating bigger viewing audiences or better airline company image, let's face it the only diference between airlines. The trouble is with good looks comes confidence, arrogance. Men on power trips and women on power trips.
Then of course women pilots want to "do the rounds". Wake up men, women want sex just like you. You want to also, but she threatens your masculinity.
I have the world's greatest sense of humour, so I am here to represent the ugly women of the airlines. Let's see how many of them are out there. Register a comment in this thread if you are ugly and female. Register a comment in this thread if you are ugly and male.
Then we'll see if all women pilots are Tasty. I'll bet I get no response.....Ha!
The intellectual requirements of a pilot are well within the reach of most individuals from the civilised and educated world. There is nothing in a pilot's job which would make it more advantageous for a male over a female. There is indeed a lot of responsibility to being a pilot, but other than that it is a "cushy number". The brain if a female is better structured to accomplish multiple tasks. A certain degree of confidence needed to when engaged in the operation of very large high speed aluminium tubing. It is well within the reach of either sex to gain the self belief needed to be a good pilot.
The number of women pilots in an airline has more to do with external forces acting in society.
The argument throughout this thread seems to vent steam from the conflict between male and female pilots.
It is the attitude and arrogance of male pilots and the attitude and arrogance of female pilots that need review. This boils down to personality. There are nice people and the not so nice.
It would be more beneficial to address the problem that good looking women are over represented in airlines. Similarly good looking men are over represented. This is a growing cause for concern throughout society in every profession. It is the same theme that runs through MTV's "Real World" show. Good looking people creating bigger viewing audiences or better airline company image, let's face it the only diference between airlines. The trouble is with good looks comes confidence, arrogance. Men on power trips and women on power trips.
Then of course women pilots want to "do the rounds". Wake up men, women want sex just like you. You want to also, but she threatens your masculinity.
I have the world's greatest sense of humour, so I am here to represent the ugly women of the airlines. Let's see how many of them are out there. Register a comment in this thread if you are ugly and female. Register a comment in this thread if you are ugly and male.
Then we'll see if all women pilots are Tasty. I'll bet I get no response.....Ha!
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Jeez... I really honestly don't know. When I was younger I wasn't that bad looking, but hardly a raving beauty. These days I seem to see more wrinkles and droopy bits every time I look in the mirror. I don't think I often rate a second glance, but some people seem to think I'm attractive. I guess I'm just an ordinary average sort of person - and I think that probably applies to most people, pilots or otherwise.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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At the risk of being contentious, has anyone considered that the reason that BA and others have relatively few female or minority pilots is that the vast majority of wannabes in the UK are likely to be single, white males.
PS: I have no axe to grind .........
PS: I have no axe to grind .........
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I work mainly at sea on tankers. What does this have to do with flying? I am flown out to join ships all over the world and have had the odd flight with female captains. There is definitely a look appears on the pax faces when pa springs into life and female voice announces she is the Capt. I usually reach for the sick bag straight away(just joking).
I also fly helicopters and have met female helo pilots.
In the 11 years I've been at sea I've worked with about a dozen female engineers and only one of them that I know is actually capable of the job we do. The rest have all been promoted because of who they've slept with, etc. This is true and not a word of a lie.
The navigation department of a ship tends to have slightly higher percentage of females but even then, not many.
The point I'm trying to make is that if a female is in an engine room on a ship and can't do her job, someone else always ends up doing it for her. In an aircraft, if a female couldn't do her job then the plane would probably crash, especially if there were two women in the cockpit not knowing what to do. So I believe there isn't a PC issue here, only that there aren't many women going into the aviation industry. How many unemployed female ATPL holders are there compared percentage wise to male ATPL holders out of work?
Just my views!
[This message has been edited by helimutt (edited 17 March 2001).]
I also fly helicopters and have met female helo pilots.
In the 11 years I've been at sea I've worked with about a dozen female engineers and only one of them that I know is actually capable of the job we do. The rest have all been promoted because of who they've slept with, etc. This is true and not a word of a lie.
The navigation department of a ship tends to have slightly higher percentage of females but even then, not many.
The point I'm trying to make is that if a female is in an engine room on a ship and can't do her job, someone else always ends up doing it for her. In an aircraft, if a female couldn't do her job then the plane would probably crash, especially if there were two women in the cockpit not knowing what to do. So I believe there isn't a PC issue here, only that there aren't many women going into the aviation industry. How many unemployed female ATPL holders are there compared percentage wise to male ATPL holders out of work?
Just my views!
[This message has been edited by helimutt (edited 17 March 2001).]
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I personally would be very angry if I learned that I received sponsorship or an airline job becasue I am female and pass the minima. I belive that if I was male I would also be in the position I am thankful to be in
I think some women spoil it for the rest of us - the ones who have to prove themselves better than males or generally make a fuss on the subject. It's immature.
The beauty of being female is being different from males. I belive that a male and female together make a great team because both have different qualities to offer and that as a result is a strength
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I agree with Speedbird48. In the US. the quota system is alive and well. Its not a publicized matter, but, the hour requirements are lower for women applicants.My airline activly recruits minorities even without them submitting resumes or applications. They send them the aplication! Also, minorities get more chances at extra training and checkrides than a white male.(but we do look at this as job security!)
I have no problem with women pilots but I do have a problem with the playing field not being level.
I have no problem with women pilots but I do have a problem with the playing field not being level.